Encore Hiring 250 hrs

[mmm..bacon]

I do believe that is coming. The next couple of years there will probably be a huge Pilot shortage.

I started flight training in the fall of '91. As soon as I broached the possibility of getting my CPL, I was told that: "The US border will be opened to pilots any day now!" and "There's a massive pilot shortage just about to happen." Here I am, 30 years later...waiting.

I won't hold my breath...

[Gear Jerker]

Big ups to Dave P, for being here year after year to give his real world, down to earth replies about WJ. We all respect him, but for me, a 705 airline actively recruiting 250 hour pilots is a move with one purpose and one purpose only. To keep wages and working conditions low. The more competitive the market is, the more wages should go up just as a natural progression. That's not happening, so lowering the hiring bar is the only way forward. Jazz has a big head start because of their connection to the big College programs, Encore is just playing catch up.

For a 250 hour grad, it's a way better option than literally any of the companies I worked for over the 15 years between graduating and getting a 705 job. Not one of hem can hold a candle to the lifestyle of an Encore pilot, and new grads would be stupid not to go.

I feel like everything you said makes perfect sense. Encore I'm sure would rather lower exp. requirements then have operating costs rise. It's a win for pilots either way, that they don't have to languish working bottom tier jobs for 15 years like yourself until they get a 705 job. They can almost go straight to encore from flight training, or maybe work like 6 months as an instructor and then go. And if WJ or AC mainline does the same thing, were really shortening wait times to get that good salary, pensions ect.

Just to add my own little nuance, and this is not directed at you but at a number of posts up to this point:

Aren't we pretty clearly just talking about apples to apples, now?

Jazz has been accepting a small percentage of new hires as 250 hour pilots for many years now, as Dave P described. We're not talking about an opening of the floodgates to classes of 20 250 hour pilots in perpetuity, here. We're talking about opening the door to potentially, occasionally hiring a 250 hour pilot, with a very specific program for training, monitoring and consolidating them.

An earlier post showed the current payscales of both companies. I see mostly parity between the two. It's also important to keep in mind that Encore is on their first collective agreement, and that the time is near to begin negotiating for CA number 2. On CA number 1, payscale increases were achieved, working condition improvements were achieved, trip and duty rigs were achieved, and clear flow language and DOH seniority was achieved.

Are things perfect? No. Are things perfect at Jazz, or Porter? Of course not. It's a job, it's an airline.

I'm not here to bang the koolaid drum; Encore is not a career gig for most, myself included. But realistically, it's Jazz with a less mature contract, and a lot of pretty great people to work with. I've honestly seen things get better every year (global pandemic notwithstanding). It's a Q400 job in Canada with guaranteed flow with seniority to a major, it's not North Korea.

[Old fella]

I do believe that is coming. The next couple of years there will probably be a huge Pilot shortage.

I started flight training in the fall of '91. As soon as I broached the possibility of getting my CPL, I was told that: "The US border will be opened to pilots any day now!" and "There's a massive pilot shortage just about to happen." Here I am, 30 years later...waiting.

I won't hold my breath...

Funny you should mention that. I got my CPL ‘73/74 time frame at MFC and we were told of massive retirement of WW2 airline pilots and everything will bust open job wise.

[goldeneagle]

I do believe that is coming. The next couple of years there will probably be a huge Pilot shortage.

I started flight training in the fall of '91. As soon as I broached the possibility of getting my CPL, I was told that: "The US border will be opened to pilots any day now!" and "There's a massive pilot shortage just about to happen." Here I am, 30 years later...waiting.

I won't hold my breath...

Funny you should mention that. I got my CPL ‘73/74 time frame at MFC and we were told of massive retirement of WW2 airline pilots and everything will bust open job wise.

I got the cpl in '78. We were told then that the pilot shortage was 2 years out, and it's been 2 years out ever since.

I'll file the pilot shortage out there with nuclear fusion, coming soon, and maybe the grandkids will see it. But I doubt it, by then automation will put 'pilot' in the same category as 'elevator driver'.

[DadoBlade]

250 hours PIC flight time was deemed sufficient to captain a RAF/RCAF Vickers Wellington bomber over Germany in late 1939...and 1940. 1941. 1942. 1943. 1944. and 1945. Upgrade to a Stirling, a Halifax and then finally, a Lancaster. You should live that long..gut damnit..

[OneYonge]

That's just artificially creating a shortage.

Well yes, but with the protection of the public in mind.

Why do you think that the CCFP and RCPSC won't accredit private medical schools? Same goes for law schools. It's in their interest to ensure that only the best get to play.

I don't know about those industries but maybe those schools just don't produce the same quality.

Other than pandemic measures and mandates, we've always allowed the industry experts rather than the regulators and bureaucrats to evaluate risk vs reward in everything else.

If WestJet can provide the data that 250 hr pilots are trainable to all safety standards using their methods, and there is a demand...you'd just be stifling industry growth more than you are increasing safety by increasing an arbitrary number to another arbitrary number.

[Old fella]

I started flight training in the fall of '91. As soon as I broached the possibility of getting my CPL, I was told that: "The US border will be opened to pilots any day now!" and "There's a massive pilot shortage just about to happen." Here I am, 30 years later...waiting.

I won't hold my breath...

Funny you should mention that. I got my CPL ‘73/74 time frame at MFC and we were told of massive retirement of WW2 airline pilots and everything will bust open job wise.

I got the cpl in '78. We were told then that the pilot shortage was 2 years out, and it's been 2 years out ever since.

I'll file the pilot shortage out there with nuclear fusion, coming soon, and maybe the grandkids will see it. But I doubt it, by then automation will put 'pilot' in the same category as 'elevator driver'.

Indeed. Every Generation developed its own nuisances and quirks, however this “ pilot shortage “ was common denominator in them all. At my age , I seen enough Generations.

[PeterParker]

Let's all be clear on one thing here. There is no pilot shortage and will never be as long as capitalism keeps playing its dirty games. There is a shortage of pay in aviation. At least once a month, it seems I run into someone who used to fly for a living who left aviation because it wouldn't pay the bills or help finance their mortgage. WJE looking to hire 250 hour pilots with the ink still wet on their licenses is just one more such instance of capitalism keeping the peasants at arms length.

"Get 1000 hours and make a lot of money", they said. "Get an ATPL and make a lot of money", they said. "Get left seat time and make a lot of money", they said. "Get jet time and make a lot of money", they said. "Go to the majors and make a lot of money", they said. The goal posts have always been moved just so that you will continue to work for nothing while the bowties at the HQ can continue counting the now-plastic dollar bills on the backs of broken careers, broken people and broken families.

The 1500-hour rule that Bede proposed earlier in this thread will probably do didly squat to improve aviation safety. Heck, I have flown with captains who had no business driving a car let alone an airplane and yet they had thousands of hours on jet. But better pay might actually make aviation safer because the pilot won't have to say yes to an unsafe job or unsafe flight because bringing food to the table at home depends on this very unsafe choice to go.

If you disagree with this notion, then all I can say is that the capitalists have conditioned you to believe that it is your fault for not having pulled yourselves up by your tattered, broken and sometimes non-existent bootstraps.

[ayseven]

As long as Air Canada has that carrot out there - even if it is several years out, there will be guys and girls wanting to fly for a living (whatever that is). I have said it a hundred times on here already, but it is a tough go til then, and even then, the moaning from unhappy AC people (OBVIOUSLY the miniority ) is audible thousands of km - no nm - away.

When I started, I started instructing, I was competing with people living at home, whereas I had to pay rent in the big city. Guess what? Economics forced me to move on to a better paying flying job (which they were all jealous of at the time), but those that stayed, often did very, very well flying in the long run - much better than me (well, those that didn't end up dead). C'est la vie.

If a kid gets onto Encore with 250 hours, he should buy 1000 lottery tickets with his first paycheque. Although he may need to borrow a bit for that many... (taxes and all).

[OneYonge]

Well said. I never understood the people that preach the 1500 hour rule as some beacon of safety, and they usually quote their famous Colgan air example where the first officer had.....wait for it....over 2200 hours....so what does a 1500 hour rule solve again?

I understand this perfectly. These are people who couldn't come into grips with the fact that there is more supply than demand for pilots.

This is similar to the minimum wage debate. Get the regulators to force businesses to pay entry-level staff more....they respond by downsizing and hiring less.

[OneYonge]

Do you really think a 250hr pilot will be hired over a 2500 or 3500 hr 703 captain or a 1500hrs 704 FO?

This entirely depends on how much pilots overvalue themselves and price themselves out of a job. Smaller operators hire low-timers.

It's not just Aviation. In any industry, the more you stifle them from growing....the smaller they get and the more they act like small operators.

[just clearing the trees]

I can't imagine a MORE appropriate job for a 250 hour pilot.
The pay is trash.
It doesn't require any special piloting skills.
It doesn't require any real experience.
It doesn't require any real decision making, insofar as they are not in command.
The aircraft offers lots of performance and is easy to fly.
It only requires a minute or two per leg of hand flying, and if conditions during those moments are beyond the capabilities of a 250 hour pilot, they have the luxury of passing control to the person supervising them.
It comes with a manual outlining in great detail, the exact step by step procedures to follow to successfully do the job.
All that is required is to follow those steps exactly, every time.
It is a lowest 250 hour common denominator job. Really, I can't imagine a MORE suitable job for a 250 hour pilot.

[trey kule]

Well said

[Flight94]

I can't imagine a MORE appropriate job for a 250 hour pilot.
The pay is trash.
It doesn't require any special piloting skills.
It doesn't require any real experience.
It doesn't require any real decision making, insofar as they are not in command.
The aircraft offers lots of performance and is easy to fly.
It only requires a minute or two per leg of hand flying, and if conditions during those moments are beyond the capabilities of a 250 hour pilot, they have the luxury of passing control to the person supervising them.
It comes with a manual outlining in great detail, the exact step by step procedures to follow to successfully do the job.
All that is required is to follow those steps exactly, every time.
It is a lowest 250 hour common denominator job. Really, I can't imagine a MORE suitable job for a 250 hour pilot.

That's the best description of a regional FO job I've ever seen.

[‘Bob’]

I can't imagine a MORE appropriate job for a 250 hour pilot.
The pay is trash.
It doesn't require any special piloting skills.
It doesn't require any real experience.
It doesn't require any real decision making, insofar as they are not in command.
The aircraft offers lots of performance and is easy to fly.
It only requires a minute or two per leg of hand flying, and if conditions during those moments are beyond the capabilities of a 250 hour pilot, they have the luxury of passing control to the person supervising them.
It comes with a manual outlining in great detail, the exact step by step procedures to follow to successfully do the job.
All that is required is to follow those steps exactly, every time.
It is a lowest 250 hour common denominator job. Really, I can't imagine a MORE suitable job for a 250 hour pilot.

Shut up.

You had me at “I can’t imagine a MORE appropriate job for a 250 hour pilot”

[Liftdump]

I believe you may be right.

[co-joe]

I can't imagine a MORE appropriate job for a 250 hour pilot.
The pay is trash.
It doesn't require any special piloting skills.
It doesn't require any real experience.
It doesn't require any real decision making, insofar as they are not in command.
The aircraft offers lots of performance and is easy to fly.
It only requires a minute or two per leg of hand flying, and if conditions during those moments are beyond the capabilities of a 250 hour pilot, they have the luxury of passing control to the person supervising them.
It comes with a manual outlining in great detail, the exact step by step procedures to follow to successfully do the job.
All that is required is to follow those steps exactly, every time.
It is a lowest 250 hour common denominator job. Really, I can't imagine a MORE suitable job for a 250 hour pilot.

So what kind of captain will they become if all they've ever had to do when the going gets rough is let go and say "you have control"?

[Flight94]

So what kind of captain will they become if all they've ever had to do when the going gets rough is let go and say "you have control"?

Probably not that great, but it's still a valid assessment of the job.

[globaltrainer]

mmmh..not sure I want to commute with them anymore.....

[Launchpad1]

I got the cpl in '78. We were told then that the pilot shortage was 2 years out, and it's been 2 years out ever since.

I'll file the pilot shortage out there with nuclear fusion, coming soon, and maybe the grandkids will see it. But I doubt it, by then automation will put 'pilot' in the same category as 'elevator driver'.

You have to admit though in 2019 (and just upto the start of the 'Vid) a Pilot shortage had begun.

I also saw it in 2006 (just before the economic crash of 2007).

Now it seems to me that these black swan events tend to happen every 7 years or so.

We are in a situation now that there will be the boomers retiring, air travel is going to be more in demand than ever and (hopefully) we have another 7 years before an asteroid hits the Earth. Maybe this time there will be a full on shortage... maybe.

[digits_]

I can't imagine a MORE appropriate job for a 250 hour pilot.
The pay is trash.
It doesn't require any special piloting skills.
It doesn't require any real experience.
It doesn't require any real decision making, insofar as they are not in command.
The aircraft offers lots of performance and is easy to fly.
It only requires a minute or two per leg of hand flying, and if conditions during those moments are beyond the capabilities of a 250 hour pilot, they have the luxury of passing control to the person supervising them.
It comes with a manual outlining in great detail, the exact step by step procedures to follow to successfully do the job.
All that is required is to follow those steps exactly, every time.
It is a lowest 250 hour common denominator job. Really, I can't imagine a MORE suitable job for a 250 hour pilot.

So what kind of captain will they become if all they've ever had to do when the going gets rough is let go and say "you have control"?

So you would prefer them to be a PIC in a smaller airplane without having any FO experience?

Every option has pros and cons.

[Tolip]

Sounds like the company is greatly getting ahead of themselves with this job posting. The last of the recalled pilots wont even be back on property until march, meaning their training will be going on until april 2022. So the earliest they could do an initial class is around may 2022. But honistly I'm not sure there is a need for it yet, atleast out of yyz, we are not busy, even for the month of December. Still lots of growth to be done for current and recalled pilots to even have a normal and full schedule.
I've herd of several friends applying with over 1000 hours and getting a rejected letter only 2 weeks after applying for this recent posting. Which tells me they are getting loads of applications and still rejecting the lower experienced guys. Like someone said earlier in this thread, I think all they are trying to do is create a pilot pool again. So they are ready for anything. I dont think they have any really solid plans to actually run any initial hires courses for summer of 22 ( unless things seriously pick up)

[yowflyer23]

Sounds like the company is greatly getting ahead of themselves with this job posting. The last of the recalled pilots wont even be back on property until march, meaning their training will be going on until april 2022. So the earliest they could do an initial class is around may 2022. But honistly I'm not sure there is a need for it yet, atleast out of yyz, we are not busy, even for the month of December. Still lots of growth to be done for current and recalled pilots to even have a normal and full schedule.
I've herd of several friends applying with over 1000 hours and getting a rejected letter only 2 weeks after applying for this recent posting. Which tells me they are getting loads of applications and still rejecting the lower experienced guys. Like someone said earlier in this thread, I think all they are trying to do is create a pilot pool again. So they are ready for anything. I dont think they have any really solid plans to actually run any initial hires courses for summer of 22 ( unless things seriously pick up)

I applied with less that 500TT and haven't gotten the pfo yet (been more than two weeks). Maybe they've just received too many applications period. There's still tons of laid off folks and two years worth of college grads who are waiting for their first break. I wouldn't want to be the one sorting through all of those applications. I think you're right about the pool. Hopefully this omnicron outbreak is short lived and some classes start to get filled as flying begins to ramp up.

[tincandriver]

Sounds like the company is greatly getting ahead of themselves with this job posting. The last of the recalled pilots wont even be back on property until march, meaning their training will be going on until april 2022. So the earliest they could do an initial class is around may 2022. But honistly I'm not sure there is a need for it yet, atleast out of yyz, we are not busy, even for the month of December. Still lots of growth to be done for current and recalled pilots to even have a normal and full schedule.
I've herd of several friends applying with over 1000 hours and getting a rejected letter only 2 weeks after applying for this recent posting. Which tells me they are getting loads of applications and still rejecting the lower experienced guys. Like someone said earlier in this thread, I think all they are trying to do is create a pilot pool again. So they are ready for anything. I dont think they have any really solid plans to actually run any initial hires courses for summer of 22 ( unless things seriously pick up)

I applied with less that 500TT and haven't gotten the pfo yet (been more than two weeks). Maybe they've just received too many applications period. There's still tons of laid off folks and two years worth of college grads who are waiting for their first break. I wouldn't want to be the one sorting through all of those applications. I think you're right about the pool. Hopefully this omnicron outbreak is short lived and some classes start to get filled as flying begins to ramp up.

I applied on Nov 8 within an hr of them posting lol ~ 1050 TT and haven’t heard anything yet. I do know a few who got reject emails but they all got because they didn’t have either IATRA/ saron/samra or PR/ citizenship etc. I haven’t heard anyone getting anything back if they meet all the requirements. I’ve been reading this forum and it sounds like they’ll mention in the posting if it’s a pool. But, Idk I might be wrong. It would be awesome if someone on the inside could confirm whether this is a pool or actual hiring and if so, when are they estimating for new classes. Looks like Mr. Dave P is the go to person for anything /WestJet. Would you please comment on this? Thanks in advance!!

[yowflyer23]

It would be awesome if someone on the inside could confirm whether this is a pool or actual hiring and if so, when are they estimating for new classes.

It says it's for the pool right in the posting:

Selection Process:

- The opportunity to interview is valid for a period of two years after graduation from one of our partnership schools
- If successful through the interview process, you will be placed in the hiring pool for WestJet Encore
- An offer of employment is subject to meeting any additional minimum qualifications for the position and any other conditions of employment
- A successful interview does not constitute an offer or guarantee of employment

Edit: Nevermind... That's for the school partnership only it appears.