Direct entry captains at Canadian 705

[rudder]

The only pilots that resent the seniority system are pilots that do not have seniority.

Also, pay progression is not simply based on upgrade (in either rank or equipment). It is also based on tenure.

Nobody arrives Day 1 as the highest paid pilot. It takes decades in the industry to achieve that milestone.

[photofly]

[

While true as recently as only a few years ago, I think management might be surprised if they had to actually pay market rates for pilots these days. If we had labour mobility the way the EU has labour mobility, Canadian carriers would have to pay rates that are paid in the US.... roughly double or more of the current rates, or they wouldn't be able to retain anyone. The US could absorb every Canadian pilot and we wouldn't be more than a drop in the ocean of pilots needed.

You will not be surprised to know that US pilots don't see it your way: they see the threat of a million Canadian pilots coming across the border pushing down their wages. They think you will push wages down; you think they will push wages up. You cannot both be correct. Given the number of wannabe Canadian pilots, I'm sure they are correct and you are not.

But - if free competition was so good for pilots, they are free to bargain for it. I'm sure they would have no resistance from airline management.

[yowflyer23]

The only pilots that resent the seniority system are pilots that do not have seniority.

You clearly haven't read the thread if that's the message that you got from this.

[Mostly Harmless]

[You will not be surprised to know that US pilots don't see it your way: they see the threat of a million Canadian pilots coming across the border pushing down their wages. They think you will push wages down; you think they will push wages up. You cannot both be correct. Given the number of wannabe Canadian pilots, I'm sure they are correct and you are not.

But - if free competition was so good for pilots, they are free to bargain for it. I'm sure they would have no resistance from airline management.

1,000,000 Canadian pilots? One million, Canadian pilots? Are there one million Canadians currently holding ATPL's? I question that number. Are there one million Canadian pilots holding CPL's? I question that number.

You are speaking about US wages being pressured down, they wouldn't and they certainly don't seem to be worried about the growing contingent of Australian pilots working in the US. I, on the other hand, am speaking about Canadian wages being pushed upwards. So, in truth, both are absolutely possible.

[photofly]

mber.

You are speaking about US wages being pressured down, they wouldn't and they certainly don't seem to be worried about the growing contingent of Australian pilots working in the US.

On the contrary:

https://simpleflying.com/alpa-connect-airlines/

ALPA noted that Connect Airlines, by seeking to hire Canadian crew, could “hire crew at cheaper rates.” The benefit comes from airlines that reduced their workforce, leaving more pilots looking for jobs. This leads the union to claim that Connect Airlines is circumventing US pay scales and market competition forces by using Canadian labor.
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ALPA worries that this could lead to a wider-scale implementation of such business practices. It worries that it could lead other carriers to set up crew bases outside of the United States and bring them into the domestic market, thereby competing against US crew with higher wage structures, which could later undermine US wages and working conditions.

[digits_]

The only pilots that resent the seniority system are pilots that do not have seniority.

Also, pay progression is not simply based on upgrade (in either rank or equipment). It is also based on tenure.

Nobody arrives Day 1 as the highest paid pilot. It takes decades in the industry to achieve that milestone.

Correction, it takes decades at the same company to achieve that. That's the crux of the seniority discussion.


Seniority is good when you are starting out. It more or less guarantees you an upgrade and provides some protection against turning down unsafe flights.

When you have skills that are in demand, or when you have the experience to somewhat guarantee you a job, that is when seniority starts to suck.

Often the only factor between having 15 years of seniority or going back to 0 is nothing but pure luck.

[Mostly Harmless]

mber.

You are speaking about US wages being pressured down, they wouldn't and they certainly don't seem to be worried about the growing contingent of Australian pilots working in the US.

On the contrary:

https://simpleflying.com/alpa-connect-airlines/

ALPA noted that Connect Airlines, by seeking to hire Canadian crew, could “hire crew at cheaper rates.” The benefit comes from airlines that reduced their workforce, leaving more pilots looking for jobs. This leads the union to claim that Connect Airlines is circumventing US pay scales and market competition forces by using Canadian labor.
.
.
.
ALPA worries that this could lead to a wider-scale implementation of such business practices. It worries that it could lead other carriers to set up crew bases outside of the United States and bring them into the domestic market, thereby competing against US crew with higher wage structures, which could later undermine US wages and working conditions.

So it's only those dirty Canadians who are an issue and not any of the other nation's pilots? What a horrible group of people those GWN's are.

[photofly]

So it's only those dirty Canadians who are an issue and not any of the other nation's pilots? What a horrible group of people those GWN's are.

Well, the article was specifically in response to and about an operator trying to set up in Canada to service the US market.

[digits_]

They think you will push wages down; you think they will push wages up. You cannot both be correct.

I think it's very likely both are correct. Canadian wages would increase a bit, and US wages would decrease a bit.

[tbaylx]

They think you will push wages down; you think they will push wages up. You cannot both be correct.

I think it's very likely both are correct. Canadian wages would increase a bit, and US wages would decrease a bit.

There are roughly 10K to 15K ATPL rated pilots in Canada. United alone has over 15K pilots. Even if every single Canadian ATPl pilot went to the USA we'd not even move the needle on the nation's hiring. We'd have a very minimal effect on US wages but it would sure change the wages in Canada fast if even a quarter of those pilots left the Canadian industry.

[dhc#]

Wouldn't put it past the greasy CDN airline industry lobby to attempt to hinder a mass pilot exodus to the US (should the rules ever change).

[altiplano]

Laws of supply and demand. It's a fact that more labour in the workforce drives down cost of labour. Absolutely the Americans don't want us there, that's just sound labour economics.

Anyway... everyone hired as an FO is hired with the idea that can do the job in the left seat too, if not immediately, very soon. There's no such thing as cream of the crop, there's just people that can do it, . Yeager wasn't an airline pilot.

AC DECs on the RJ was because right seat on the 320 paid better, and RP on the 340 even better than that, nobody already there wanted the seat... pay/lifestyle equation right there.

Many pilots are a slimy bunch who will step on one another for a nickel. Seniority protects us from one another as much as it protects us from the company. Look how much they whipsaw groups, groups within groups, Mainline vs. LWC vs. Regional and on and on.

It isn't perfect, but it's better than the alternative.

[rudder]

Wouldn't put it past the greasy CDN airline industry lobby to attempt to hinder a mass pilot exodus to the US (should the rules ever change).

The last decade that a CDN pilot could work in the US was the 1960’s. CP Air and AC/TCA were competing with UA/PAA/CAL and many others for pilots as rapid growth overtook the industry.

This is not a CDN issue. It is a US issue. And it is unlikely that the mobility of foreign pilots into US cockpits will be resuming anytime soon.

[altiplano]

Wouldn't put it past the greasy CDN airline industry lobby to attempt to hinder a mass pilot exodus to the US (should the rules ever change).

The last decade that a CDN pilot could work in the US was the 1960’s. CP Air and AC/TCA were competing with UA/PAA/CAL and many others for pilots as rapid growth overtook the industry.

This is not a CDN issue. It is a US issue. And it is unlikely that the mobility of foreign pilots into US cockpits will be resuming anytime soon.

Guys have told me stories about US Legacy Airline recruiters approaching you as you walked to parking in YYZ. I can't remember what year they said that was, and they were old but not so old to be speaking about the '60s... or maybe they were just recounting a story told to them by someone older than them.

[DanWEC]

I've been working on this as a side project. After some initial progress, we're getting more than a little stonewalled by the US. I'm fairly certain at this point that there's been a handshake agreement in place at the cabinet level specifically for pilots to prevent fluid movement to the US from Canada despite no official policy either way. I also wouldn't doubt that McKenna has had a hand in reinforcing it.

[lownslow]

In early 2019 Jazz was looking at their options to hire DECs and intended to do so. I don’t think you’ll see mainline AC or WJ do it, possibly ever, but it seems everyone else is fair game.

[rudder]

In early 2019 Jazz was looking at their options to hire DECs and intended to do so. I don’t think you’ll see mainline AC or WJ do it, possibly ever, but it seems everyone else is fair game.

Cargojet is still hiring DEC (at least until recently). It happens.

[newlygrounded]

I would be interested to know where you live and what the aviation industry is like there.

To answer your questions:

1: why companies like AC or WJ wouldn’t go out and get the cream of the crop? 2: Is this just a Canadian thing or don’t US majors also not hire DECs?

People with unique skills you will probably never have. If that sounds like I am giving your ego a check, it's because I am.

Lmao died at the irony of the ego check. Last time I checked the US has Alaska, and if we were as good as everyone claims we are we wouldn't have the lowest paid 777 drivers in the world

[newlygrounded]

I've been working on this as a side project. After some initial progress, we're getting more than a little stonewalled by the US. I'm fairly certain at this point that there's been a handshake agreement in place at the cabinet level specifically for pilots to prevent fluid movement to the US from Canada despite no official policy either way. I also wouldn't doubt that McKenna has had a hand in reinforcing it.

Thanks for doing what you're doing!

[Eric Janson]

I am curious as to what happens to Canadian expat pilots who go fly in Asia/Middle East and then lose their jobs there. Do they come back to Canada and fly corporate? Do they retire/start a business outside of aviation? I am considering going the expat route myself in a few years (mainly for the $$) and one worry of mine is what will happen if I am laid off in a foreign country. I would imagine most expat pilots wouldn't want to start their careers over again at AC/WJ as a narrow body FO on flat pay.

Going the Expat route is normally a one -way ticket. Very few will return to start at the bottom.

Most of the Expats I know are currently unemployed and in some cases it means the end of their career.

Expat market won't be coming back to what it was anytime soon either imho - companies have had plenty of time to train their own staff and with flying being at a much lower level than before COVID there is simply no need for Expats.

If you have a stable job in your home country then that is your best option imho.

[Ash Ketchum]

I am curious as to what happens to Canadian expat pilots who go fly in Asia/Middle East and then lose their jobs there. Do they come back to Canada and fly corporate? Do they retire/start a business outside of aviation? I am considering going the expat route myself in a few years (mainly for the $$) and one worry of mine is what will happen if I am laid off in a foreign country. I would imagine most expat pilots wouldn't want to start their careers over again at AC/WJ as a narrow body FO on flat pay.

Going the Expat route is normally a one -way ticket. Very few will return to start at the bottom.

Most of the Expats I know are currently unemployed and in some cases it means the end of their career.

Expat market won't be coming back to what it was anytime soon either imho - companies have had plenty of time to train their own staff and with flying being at a much lower level than before COVID there is simply no need for Expats.

If you have a stable job in your home country then that is your best option imho.

Thanks for the realistic answer - definitely sounds like a big risk these days. Guess I will just need to put up with 4 years of flat pay and stay in Canada.

[Eric Janson]

Thanks for the realistic answer - definitely sounds like a big risk these days. Guess I will just need to put up with 4 years of flat pay and stay in Canada.

I'd just like to add that there's a lot more to being an Expat than getting $$$ - which you mentioned as your motivation.

Yes - you can potentially earn more - however there is no such thing as a free lunch imho.

- Living in a different culture isn't for everyone - and it will be very different than what you may be used to. Seen a lot of people that couldn't adjust - they left within 6 months. Visiting a place is very different than living there.

- One serious incident and you're out. No real protection.

- Your contract can be changed at a moments notice. Don't like it? There's the door.

- Instead of Expat you could use Mercenary or Prostitute - both are a more accurate description imho.

On a personal note - I enjoyed the 8 years I worked in Asia. I was able to make the adjustment.

Had I stayed I would have been laid off in 2020 and it would have been the end of my career - funny how things work out sometimes.

[Mostly Harmless]

Last time I checked the US has Alaska, and if we were as good as everyone claims we are we wouldn't have the lowest paid 777 drivers in the world

Yay Alaska. But I seem unable to draw a line between Alaskan flying and your 777 wages? I am really looking forward to hearing the connection.

I'd just like to add that there's a lot more to being an Expat than getting $$$ - which you mentioned as your motivation.

Yes - you can potentially earn more - however there is no such thing as a free lunch imho.

- Living in a different culture isn't for everyone - and it will be very different than what you may be used to. Seen a lot of people that couldn't adjust - they left within 6 months. Visiting a place is very different than living there.

- One serious incident and you're out. No real protection.

- Your contract can be changed at a moments notice. Don't like it? There's the door.

- Instead of Expat you could use Mercenary or Prostitute - both are a more accurate description imho.

On a personal note - I enjoyed the 8 years I worked in Asia. I was able to make the adjustment.

Had I stayed I would have been laid off in 2020 and it would have been the end of my career - funny how things work out sometimes.

That is some solid advice.

[pelmet]

Your direct path to American Airlines begins at PSA Airlines. We are hiring Direct Entry Captains! Ready to take your seat? Check your qualifications below.

Do you have an ATP Rating?
Do you have 1,000 FAR-121 hours under the ATP requirements or the restricted ATP requirements within the past five years?
Do you have 2,500 hours of total flight time, and of the 2,500 hours: in addition to at least 500 in a multi-engine turbine, either at least 500 as a Pilot in Command or at least 1,000 hours logged as a Second in Command (within the past five years)?
As a Direct Entry Captain at PSA, you can earn up to $152,000 in first year pay and be on a guaranteed path to flow to American. You’ll also have access to the world’s largest network through American’s travel privileges and a comprehensive benefits package.

Take advantage of this opportunity, apply today!

Not yet qualified for Direct Entry Captain? We have a path for you. Visit our website for more information.

[dhc#]

Your direct path to American Airlines begins at PSA Airlines. We are hiring Direct Entry Captains! Ready to take your seat? Check your qualifications below.

Do you have an ATP Rating?
Do you have 1,000 FAR-121 hours under the ATP requirements or the restricted ATP requirements within the past five years?
Do you have 2,500 hours of total flight time, and of the 2,500 hours: in addition to at least 500 in a multi-engine turbine, either at least 500 as a Pilot in Command or at least 1,000 hours logged as a Second in Command (within the past five years)?
As a Direct Entry Captain at PSA, you can earn up to $152,000 in first year pay and be on a guaranteed path to flow to American. You’ll also have access to the world’s largest network through American’s travel privileges and a comprehensive benefits package.

Take advantage of this opportunity, apply today!

Not yet qualified for Direct Entry Captain? We have a path for you. Visit our website for more information.

Wow 152k first year DEC at a US regional ? What's the catch