Night Engine Failure Question

Cat Driver · Post by **Cat Driver** » Sat Oct 29, 2005 4:18 pm

Interesting topic, with interesting ideas on how to maybe survive.

But why are you flying single engine at night?

To qualify for a Commercial pilot license?

What f.ckin moron put such a policy in place to start with?

Lets see here how this works...first you risk your life to qualify for a commercial pilot license flying single engine at night.

Then when you become a commercial pilot you are forbidden to fly passengers at night in a commercially operated single engine airplane because it is not safe.

So tell me who are the morons that are forcing you to risk your life flying single engine aircraft at night?

Cat

Right Seat Captain · Post by **Right Seat Captain** » Sat Oct 29, 2005 4:32 pm

The first step is to take a step back, and look at the planning. Why would you plan a flight with no outs? This is something you should be looking at for the commercial training: ALWAYS have an out.

So how do you change your planning to have an out? Choose a route that would allow you to have a reasonable chance of survival if you have an engine failure or run into bad weather. Engine failure shouldn't be your only concern. In sparsely settled area with no light, it is very easy to fly yourself into something bad that you'll never see until it's too late.

Roads are an excellent option for night. Make sure they are well travelled so that you'll see a car here and there to indicate where the road is. I remember flying from North Bay to Ottawa at night a few times, and I made the mistake of flying over Algonquin Park. It was so dark, if anything happened, I'd wouldn't be here talling you this now. So next time, I followed Highway 17. It may not have been straight, but I would have a better chance at living through the experience.

IMHO, avoid ditching at all costs, especially at night. You will flip and sink in a matter of seconds, and you'll be found full of water at the back of the cabin. Disorientation after ditching is your first problem of many, you won't know which way is out of the airplane. Then you have to get yourself to the surface and swim somewhere you can't even see. You could be swimming farther away from shore.

This is usually the order that I consider landing locations, from best to worst:
1) Runway
2) Field in ideal condition (no ruts, short growth, enough length, eg grassy area)
3) Frozen lake (often not considered)
3) Field in moderate condition (farmer's fields)
4) Roads (preferably with no power lines, and relatively straight. A quiet 4 lane highway would be best)
5) Field in poor condition (ditches, bushes, fences, sloped/slanted)
6) Trees (soft field technique flare on tree tops. They are much more flexible and the trunks, and the fall through branches and you wings will slow your fall tot he ground. You are in a metal cage assuming a cessna or cherokee or something similar)
7) Non-frozen water (land as slow as possible, with very nose high attitude, can lower the risk of cartwheeling)

bizjet_mania · Post by **bizjet_mania** » Sat Oct 29, 2005 5:59 pm

Cat Driver wrote:Interesting topic, with interesting ideas on how to maybe survive.

But why are you flying single engine at night?

To qualify for a Commercial pilot license?

What f.ckin moron put such a policy in place to start with?

Lets see here how this works...first you risk your life to qualify for a commercial pilot license flying single engine at night.

Then when you become a commercial pilot you are forbidden to fly passengers at night in a commercially operated single engine airplane because it is not safe.

So tell me who are the morons that are forcing you to risk your life flying single engine aircraft at night?

Cat

That is actually a very good point.

Springbok · Post by **Springbok** » Sat Oct 29, 2005 6:22 pm

Cat Driver wrote:Interesting topic, with interesting ideas on how to maybe survive.

But why are you flying single engine at night?

To qualify for a Commercial pilot license?

What f.ckin moron put such a policy in place to start with?

Lets see here how this works...first you risk your life to qualify for a commercial pilot license flying single engine at night.

Then when you become a commercial pilot you are forbidden to fly passengers at night in a commercially operated single engine airplane because it is not safe.

So tell me who are the morons that are forcing you to risk your life flying single engine aircraft at night?

Cat

Cat, a quick question and my apologies for coming to this thread at a late stage. Normal Caribbean power cuts!!

I have to do a Canadian CPL endorsement which will include my night rating and I do not have a multi engine rating. I will therefore be in the same position as many a guy doing their CPL`s.

What you say is so true. Why then is TC following a syllabus which is potentially dangerous. They endorse the CPL night rating on single engine aircraft when it will not be practically applicable later on after completion.

Should we then finish up all the fine tuning and flight test prep on a single and then rather do the night rating during a multi engine conversion? What is the best solution? Doing twin night ratings will also seriously bang a hole in a limited budget.

In my case, I have no familiarity with much of the tearrain I will be expected to overfly in Canada in a single and this is a deep concern in the event of engine falure at night. If I was back home in South Africa and flying over an area well known to me, I might just stand a chance of survival.....I mean, I might make it into a good tobacco or sugar cane field.

Bottom line is, what do you and the other guys suggest we do in a case like this? Do we bomb around in sigles building those night hours to get the CPL or should we just get the twin rating and then go from there?

Cat Driver · Post by **Cat Driver** » Sat Oct 29, 2005 7:05 pm

Springbok :

I have been out of the flight training end of aviation in Canada for many years and am a bit fuzzy regarding how many night hours are required for the commercial pilot license.

My reason for questioning TC approving of night x/country in single engine aircraft for the issuance of a higher license was only to point out their lack of consistancy with regard to flight safety.

Why do they approve something for pilots in training yet they regulate it to be to dangerous for commercial operations?

As to your question on what would be the best way to build night time, there are several flight instructors here who may be able to advise you and are more up to date on this than I am.

Cat

Axial Flow · Post by **Axial Flow** » Sat Oct 29, 2005 7:40 pm

Follow the roads....I did a night cross country when I was 17 from North Bay direct (direct also starts with D like Dumbass) Kingston Ontario. I didn't want to pay the extra following the highway cause I couldn't even afford the trip in the first place. Of course it was overcast and no light to speak of, I was fine till about 50 miles out when there wasn't a light around to be seen. The track took me over the biggest stretch of uninhabited area in all of southern ontario (Algonquin Park !!) It was all good though cause in my infinite wisdom I had a GPS to guide me and an IFR rating....Wait the airplane had 1 vor (u/s) and no ADF and I had about 120 hours TT. Needless to say after sucking the seat up my ass everytime I heard a different engine noise I was never so glad in my life to see a highway and lights. If I was you follow the freakin highway to build time cause night cross country time doesn't mean anything when your dead !

LostinRotation · Post by **LostinRotation** » Sat Oct 29, 2005 7:52 pm

Right Seat Captain wrote:The first step is to take a step back, and look at the planning. Why would you plan a flight with no outs? This is something you should be looking at for the commercial training: ALWAYS have an out.

So how do you change your planning to have an out? Choose a route that would allow you to have a reasonable chance of survival if you have an engine failure or run into bad weather. Engine failure shouldn't be your only concern. In sparsely settled area with no light, it is very easy to fly yourself into something bad that you'll never see until it's too late.

Roads are an excellent option for night. Make sure they are well travelled so that you'll see a car here and there to indicate where the road is. I remember flying from North Bay to Ottawa at night a few times, and I made the mistake of flying over Algonquin Park. It was so dark, if anything happened, I'd wouldn't be here talling you this now. So next time, I followed Highway 17. It may not have been straight, but I would have a better chance at living through the experience.

IMHO, avoid ditching at all costs, especially at night. You will flip and sink in a matter of seconds, and you'll be found full of water at the back of the cabin. Disorientation after ditching is your first problem of many, you won't know which way is out of the airplane. Then you have to get yourself to the surface and swim somewhere you can't even see. You could be swimming farther away from shore.

This is usually the order that I consider landing locations, from best to worst:
1) Runway
2) Field in ideal condition (no ruts, short growth, enough length, eg grassy area)
3) Frozen lake (often not considered)
3) Field in moderate condition (farmer's fields)
4) Roads (preferably with no power lines, and relatively straight. A quiet 4 lane highway would be best)
5) Field in poor condition (ditches, bushes, fences, sloped/slanted)
6) Trees (soft field technique flare on tree tops. They are much more flexible and the trunks, and the fall through branches and you wings will slow your fall tot he ground. You are in a metal cage assuming a cessna or cherokee or something similar)
7) Non-frozen water (land as slow as possible, with very nose high attitude, can lower the risk of cartwheeling)

...... A man who obviously learned to fly without a parachute.

-=0=LIR=0=-

mikegtzg · Post by **mikegtzg** » Sat Oct 29, 2005 11:44 pm

Slightly off topic Buckniner. If you are flying West from Winnipeg and you want to save some money on your training. Shoal Lake and Erickson have cheaper fuel than most places in Western MB. Both have lights and are self serve.

Rudy · Post by **Rudy** » Sun Oct 30, 2005 9:35 am

mellow_pilot wrote:...It was Sault to Elliot lake....Yea I flew through the valley of the shadow of death that night.

Hehehe. I don't know if I'd consider that the valley of the shadow of death.

sakism · Post by **sakism** » Sun Oct 30, 2005 10:39 am

There is no requirement for night solo cross-country in the commercial licence.

All you need is a night rating - that includes 2 hours dual cross country, but one never need leave the circuit solo. You are still single-engine, but two hours cross-country is really not a lot - especially if you make it 2 one hour flights. You don't have to land at another airport - just fly somewhere half an hour away and turn around and come back.

Any night cross-country that is done in addition to that 2 hours is purely optional.

Blakey · Post by **Blakey** » Sun Oct 30, 2005 10:55 am

Following roads at night is not a bad idea but make certain that you pay close attention to the GASAs and and any new towers NOTAMed on your route. All those big tall towers are always built right along the road so they're easy to get to. They are well lit but you'd be surprised how well tower lights can blend in with the lights of the traffic along a highway!

Pugster · Post by **Pugster** » Sun Oct 30, 2005 12:40 pm

Springbok;

The problem is that if you are looking to build night hours the ones that count are PIC cross-country night (25 req. for the ATPL). Going up and bombing around in a twin with an instructor at night isn't going to get you any closer to that goal.

Most people I know have lots of night time at 1500 hours (or whenever they write the A's), however lots have less than the 25 night PIC XC because most of their night time was done in the right seat.

So - if you're building time for the ATPL, you'll probably have to bite and do it in a single engine...just make sure you manage the risks effectively.

PS: anyone flying single-engine at night over sparsely settled terrain needs to have their head examined IMHO...If you're gonna build night hours in a Cessna, stick to a plan that gives you an out - if I couldn't glide to a suitable landing site, or a lit road, (as a worst case) I personally would think that the risk level was bordering on the unacceptable - especially since you're just building hours...(as everyone has already said).

planedriver · Post by **planedriver** » Mon Oct 31, 2005 6:11 pm

I fly in the Arctic where there's three things, little trees, rocks, and lakes. I try and avoid flying at night but for a you guys in knowhere land that need the time for the ATPL, why don't you wait till the lakes freeze. Chances of finding a lake are great, land into wind on the snow.

Medium Pimpin · Post by **Medium Pimpin** » Mon Oct 31, 2005 6:43 pm

Emergency Ceckist - Engine Failure Night
1) Roll Inverted
2) Pull Back on Stick

Doc · Post by **Doc** » Mon Oct 31, 2005 9:32 pm

First off, you shouldn't be there. As Cat points out. But you are. You dumb Phuque! And you have followed everyone's advice, and have actually pulled off a survivabale night landing in the bush. To do this, you have had the forethought to secure your sholder harness, prior to impact, and of course, donned your full-face Snell approved motorcycle helmet? A bullett proof vest, or something in a tastefull kevlar jacket will also work well here, as would that silly "bear suit" that nut-case was trying to test a few years back. And at the last second, you tucked your face and chest behind the really big firm cushion you carry on the empty passenger seat for just such an occassion? Now what? You, being a proactive kind of guy has told everybody when to expect you? And, you always carry a sat-phone and hand held GPS...right? Wrong?
Get the multi first, and do your night bush crosscountries in a friggen twin!

Cat Driver · Post by **Cat Driver** » Mon Oct 31, 2005 9:52 pm

quote:

" So - if you're building time for the ATPL, you'll probably have to bite and do it in a single engine...just make sure you manage the risks effectively. "

I'm kind of slow mentally, so please help me out here.

If TC considers single engine night x/country to be to unsafe for commercial passenger flights, why do they have a requrement for x/contry night for the ALTP that puts pilots at risk by flying single engine x/country at night?

TC uses the mantra " safety " in everything they print, why I bet they have special toilet paper with " safety paper " written on it to wipe their asses with in their offices.

So why the double standard?

Cat

Doc · Post by **Doc** » Mon Oct 31, 2005 9:58 pm

And on the flip side of their ass-wipe. "Inteninally left blank"
It's too late at night to take marks off for spelling!!

TC Guy · Post by **TC Guy** » Mon Oct 31, 2005 10:28 pm

Cat Driver wrote:quote:

" So - if you're building time for the ATPL, you'll probably have to bite and do it in a single engine...just make sure you manage the risks effectively. "

I'm kind of slow mentally, so please help me out here.

If TC considers single engine night x/country to be to unsafe for commercial passenger flights, why do they have a requrement for x/contry night for the ALTP that puts pilots at risk by flying single engine x/country at night?

TC uses the mantra " safety " in everything they print, why I bet they have special toilet paper with " safety paper " written on it to wipe their asses with in their offices.

So why the double standard?

Cat

Okay, this begs the question--

Should there be a night requirement for commercial? Sounds like you believe it is dangerous.

There is no multi requirement on the CPL... no IFR requirement... should there be?

How do we balance safety and give the CPL students this experience?

I don't dispute that single-engine night flying over a sparsely settled area does pose an additional element of risk. How do we limit our exposure to this risk?

Cat (and others that see this as a safety issue):

How do you propose we resolve this? More limiting legislation? Make the CPL Day VFR only? Require night Multi-engine experience in the CPL?

You guys are the industry... How do you want to solve this problem?

-Guy

bob sacamano · Post by **bob sacamano** » Tue Nov 01, 2005 4:51 am

Cat Driver wrote:quote: If TC considers single engine night x/country to be to unsafe for commercial passenger flights, why do they have a requrement for x/contry night for the ALTP that puts pilots at risk by flying single engine x/country at night?

To my knowledge there is no such requirement. It does not stipulate that it must be conducted in a single-engine.

peeelot · Post by **peeelot** » Tue Nov 01, 2005 6:51 am

Ask a TC inspector if they can give you an answer about the hour requirement they won't be able to tell you because they don't even know. When it comes to night VFR in a single. Fly the route in the day so you can get an idea of what you would be dealing with in the case of an engine failure. Night VFR is not safe but if you can do things to improve your chances you willhave a better chance if somthing does happen. As they say with a night engine failure turn your landing light on if you don't like what you see turn it off.

Night Engine Failure Question

Night rating

Night