Unvaccinated student pilot

[Vaticinator]

As I said, nobody is imposing any beliefs on anyone else

In the hypothetical situation that was being discussed, that was exactly what was proposed. A person denying another person a service, in part, as a punishment for their personal choice. They're well within their rights to do so, but that's exactly what's happening.

[photofly]

As I said, nobody is imposing any beliefs on anyone else

In the hypothetical situation that was being discussed, that was exactly what was proposed. A person denying another person a service, in part, as a punishment for their personal choice. They're well within their rights to do so, but that's exactly what's happening.

Something is getting lost here. Nobody is being punished for what they do or don't believe. They're being "punished" (I adopt your word without endorsing it) for how they behave. Specifically, for getting or not getting a vaccine - not for believing anything about a vaccine. I don't, in general, see a problem with that.

[Vaticinator]

What do you suppose directs a person's actions? Throwing darts at a board? Spinning a wheel of possibilities?

[photofly]

Your argument, that everyone should be free to follow their personal beliefs in all respects, is absurd. I don't believe in property rights - ergo I should be free to steal from you. I don't believe in driving on the correct side of the road - ergo I should be free to drive as I please. I don't believe in vaccinations, ergo I demand to be free from consequence if I go without. There's no real difference.

Curiously, the fields where we, exceptionally, do allow exemptions to expected behaviour on the basis of personal belief, is in religion. Members of the SIkh religion don't have to wear motorcycle helmets. Observant Jews don't have to remove their yarmulkes in court. Yet you are the person who likes to accuse others of treating vaccination as a religious belief. You should try arguing that from the other end, and you'd have a credible case for not restricting services to people who refuse a vaccine.

[Vaticinator]

Your argument, that everyone should be free to follow their personal beliefs in all respects, is absurd.

That would be absurd, wouldn't it. Fortunately I've never said that and that is not my argument, in spite of your repeated duplicitous attempts to intentionally characterize it as such.

[photofly]

Your argument, that everyone should be free to follow their personal beliefs in all respects, is absurd.

That would be absurd, wouldn't it. Fortunately I've never said that and that is not my argument, in spite of your repeated duplicitous attempts to intentionally characterize it as such.

I'm not being duplicitious; I genuinely don't see the difference.

In which respects should people be free to act on their personal beliefs without negative consequence, and in which respects should they not?
Why is a negative outcome to refusing a vaccine different to a negative outcome to refusing to drive correctly? What are the criteria a just society can use for demanding a certain behaviour from someone?

[DanWEC]

A couple of reasons for not wanting to spend 1.5 hours 6 inches from someone in a poorly ventilated GA airplane cockpit.

1) There is now significant evidence that unvaccinated people are more infectious if they have COVID-19 over people who are fully vaccinated. My status as a fully vaccinated person with a booster makes it less likely I will get sick enough to be hospitalized if infected but won't necessarily fully protect me from infection. However vaccination does offers some protection from infection so I don't want to fly with someone who is more likely to be infected and more infectious if infected.

2) Unvaccinated people are the reason why the health care system is stretched to the breaking point and why many people are being denied important surgeries, so I see no reason why I should support your choice not to take a approved free vaccine. With choices comes consequences.

BPF, to cut through some of the conversation here and just reply to you:

I presumed your reasoning would be for an element of self risk, and that would have been valid a year ago, but if I can allay your concerns a bit with recent 2022 data.

To your first point- Elevated risk of transmission. The fact of the matter with Omicron as the 90%+ dominant strain is that the dynamic of vaccine methodology is adapting, since it is almost a completely different virus and subsequent disease from Delta. The current vaccines are being shown to have almost zero effect on transmission. (Again, not talking about 1 or 2 years ago, or Delta). I would welcome to be proven wrong, but there is just no evidence to the contrary. It's a fact, and it's the entire reason the cases have absolutely skyrocketed- it's irrefutable.
Omicron has a totally different pathology than Delta, it quickly affects the shallow throat mucosae as opposed to deep pulmonary tissue. It infects and fully presents in less than 3 days, and multiplies to a contagious load so quickly that the vaccine-enhanced T-cells are behind. There's no away around that. It's acting much more like the common cold or flu. Actually, there were vaccines attempted in the 80's and 90's that expressed enhanced B and T cells in throat mucosae, but their efficacy is so short lived due to the mutational nature of corona viruses that they're mostly abandoned due to economics.
(Luckily, with strains like Delta, the deep infection and long incubation period is one of the factors that limits its transmissibility and spread.)

Now, there is still logical evidence that, in the case that an individual has a high viral load and is fully symptomatic with a bad bout of Omicron, that vaccination will reduce the contagious period by a day or two and of course lessen the symptoms, but if some moronic student gets into a plane with me with a full out cold the only thing they'll get that day is a serious talk on decision making. So, as you can see, there is all but zero difference in risk to yourself, currently, by sitting next to a non-symptomatic person whether they're vaccinated or not.
For the second point, well, that one has been beat to death. 74% of cases in hospitals today in Ontario are omicron positive, yes, another 20% uptake would make a difference, but I'll just leave that there. It's a health care systemic issue.
Anyhow, I'm fully vaccinated, I actually worked in a production lab around 2000 making various tablets. The product and science is amazing, and good for it's target, (Which is 2 years old now.... part of the problem.) but I also believe as a population we also can't resolve to getting shots every 6 months to replace our immune systems or take advice from CEO's.

Anyhow, everyone should do whatever they want to protect themselves, but the data and subsequent methodology to base those decisions on is changing rapidly. It's essentially a prophylactic now and doesn't much change transmission.

Cheers,

[Vaticinator]

Your argument, that everyone should be free to follow their personal beliefs in all respects
...
I'm not being duplicitious; I genuinely don't see the difference.

You most certainly are being duplicitous. Sorry, but I'm not taking your bait. It's rotten as usual. I can tell that you want to have your straw man fun, but I'm not interested in being intentionally misrepresented. If you genuinely don't see the difference, then you have a comprehension issue.

[photofly]

Your argument, that everyone should be free to follow their personal beliefs in all respects
...
I'm not being duplicitious; I genuinely don't see the difference.

You most certainly are being duplicitous. Sorry, but I'm not taking your bait. It's rotten as usual. I can tell that you want to have your straw man fun, but I'm not interested in being intentionally misrepresented. If you genuinely don't see the difference, then you have a comprehension issue.

I'm not trying to misrepresent you, but to the extent that I understand your argument it seems absurd.

You said "Where our opinions diverge is in the ethics of imposing our personal beliefs on others." I don't think our opinions diverge on this point. Nobody is imposing any belief on you. You are free to believe what you want - the same as me, or different to me. No imposition of belief whatsoever.

[Posthumane]

The fact of the matter with Omicron as the 90%+ dominant strain is that the dynamic of vaccine methodology is adapting, since it is almost a completely different virus and subsequent disease from Delta. The current vaccines are being shown to have almost zero effect on transmission. (Again, not talking about 1 or 2 years ago, or Delta).

An interesting point to note is that while the number of reported omicron cases has skyrocketed, the number of delta cases has only decreased a bit; it's far from gone at the moment. The number or cases being found per day at the peak of the current wave in Canada was about 10x what the peak of the last delta wave had, so with somewhere around 6.5% of those being delta in the latest update in January the number of delta cases around the country is about 2/3 of what it was before omicron got a hold here.