#EncoreFlowMoraleLow

[imjustlurking]

Why would Swoop exist if you think that WestJet does not want it to be successful? Do you think it would exist if it wasn't?

I'll answer that one.

Does WestJet want Swoop to be successful? Yes... at the expense of WestJet's employees.

So you are accusing the company of malicious intent?

[Canadaflyer46]

Why would Swoop exist if you think that WestJet does not want it to be successful? Do you think it would exist if it wasn't?

I'll answer that one.

Does WestJet want Swoop to be successful? Yes... at the expense of WestJet's employees.

So you are accusing the company of malicious intent?

Ok so if you're not trolling you're just deeply deluded. I understand that you're very new to Encore/WJ, so I can understand you still have a lot to learn about this company. That will come in due time, but posting on a public forum defending this company after the way they've treated employees in recent times is quite simply embarrassing and laughable. It's actually an insult to the thousands of loyal Westjetters who were fired without a second thought and outsourced.

[Arnie Pye]

Onex didn't buy WestJet because Gerry liked the people. He's interested in one thing and one thing only. It stands to reason that the only thing standing between profitability and more profitability is the salaries of the "premium" brand. If you can fill the planes at the discount brand just as easily as the premium brand, why spend the money on the premium salaries? Gerry is no fool. He didn't just buy 12,000 new friends.

[imjustlurking]

I'll answer that one.

Does WestJet want Swoop to be successful? Yes... at the expense of WestJet's employees.

So you are accusing the company of malicious intent?

Ok so if you're not trolling you're just deeply deluded. I understand that you're very new to Encore/WJ, so I can understand you still have a lot to learn about this company. That will come in due time, but posting on a public forum defending this company after the way they've treated employees in recent times is quite simply embarrassing and laughable. It's actually an insult to the thousands of loyal Westjetters who were fired without a second thought and outsourced.

So you are accusing them of having malicious intent.

I am in no way defending the actions of any person at the company, but instead pointing out the logic, or lack thereof in the conversation.

I recognize that after the Onyx purchase, there were going to be big changes. It's no surprise that they used COVID to push them forward and shield themselves from some of the backlash. It is also no surprise that people were laid off in general during the pandemic. The idea that an airline can continue to employ tens of thousands of excess employees during a time where bookings were not being made and cancellations were coming in left, right, and center is laughable.

[Mach1]

So you are accusing them of having malicious intent.

I am in no way defending the actions of any person at the company, but instead pointing out the logic, or lack thereof in the conversation.

Depends on what you consider malicious intent?

But since you are just trolling, let us rehash some history:

Swoop was started pre-covid. The plans were in place and unfolding without the pandemic.

See this article in which it is stated Swoop is "Modelled after the relationship between Australia's Qantas Airways and Jetstar Airways" https://toronto.ctvnews.ca/westjet-s-lo ... -1.3657464

Jetstar stopped all growth within Qantas, something the Qantas pilots call the lost decade. Ask a Qantas pilot how they feel about the creation of Jetstar.

The Chairman of the Board created Swoop so he could "Burn the place down and start over" (his words) and as a union busting manoeuvre designed to repaint the WestJet aircraft pink, and halve the pilot's and flight attendant's wages.. to start.

"The key will be to keep costs down from lower labour costs" https://canadianaviationnews.wordpress. ... 06/page/2/

Swoop is a plan. The plan, is a reset. Reset costs (wages) and (customer) expectations. Is that malicious? I suppose that depends on whether or not you are one of the costs being reset. Oddly enough, Executive compensation is not half of WestJet Executive compensation.

[MorePower!]

Pointed at no one in particular.

All I can say is this..

You can be a delusional hater.. thinking that the company is always out to get you, their sole goal is to wreck your tiny butt.. and to ruin your career. You can go through your entire career, stressed, scared.. annoy the hell out of the people you work with and bring down the mood every time. 787 being ordered.. "they are gonna screw us, you watch!!" Expanding Internationally "yeeep they are definetly going to screw us on this too! Screw the Corp!!"

This negative thinking and hate is just unwarranted. No one is making you work here.. leave if your life is that miserable. Make a change. "You" are the only person responsible for your own well being and day to day enjoyment.

If flying for an Airline is not doing it for you, and all you can think of is how negative everything is. Maybe it's time to rethink things.. maybe it's time to quit. Or go to an another Airline where the realization will be made.. thats its a little better.. or a little worse.. or the same.

At some point a realization has to be made, that it's your problem, not the companies. You will be unhappy no matter what the company does. Leave with your negativity in tow to a different industry.

I'm sick of people moaning and bitching of how terrible things are.. and just making it not fun for everyone else. And doing nothing about it. You will end up bitching and moaning and hating your work life for the rest of your career.. and it will get you absolutely no where. Change your self, enjoy the little things. Understand how fortunate you are in an Airliner in Canada. If you don't feel like you are, do something about it! Make change. Don't bitch and moan.

The end.

[imjustlurking]

So you are accusing them of having malicious intent.

I am in no way defending the actions of any person at the company, but instead pointing out the logic, or lack thereof in the conversation.

Depends on what you consider malicious intent?

But since you are just trolling, let us rehash some history:

Swoop was started pre-covid. The plans were in place and unfolding without the pandemic.

See this article in which it is stated Swoop is "Modelled after the relationship between Australia's Qantas Airways and Jetstar Airways" https://toronto.ctvnews.ca/westjet-s-lo ... -1.3657464

Jetstar stopped all growth within Qantas, something the Qantas pilots call the lost decade. Ask a Qantas pilot how they feel about the creation of Jetstar.

The Chairman of the Board created Swoop so he could "Burn the place down and start over" (his words) and as a union busting manoeuvre designed to repaint the WestJet aircraft pink, and halve the pilot's and flight attendant's wages.. to start.

"The key will be to keep costs down from lower labour costs" https://canadianaviationnews.wordpress. ... 06/page/2/

Swoop is a plan. The plan, is a reset. Reset costs (wages) and (customer) expectations. Is that malicious? I suppose that depends on whether or not you are one of the costs being reset. Oddly enough, Executive compensation is not half of WestJet Executive compensation.

Not sure why you'd think I'm trolling. Do you think that anybody who has a different opinion to you is trolling?

[hithere]

The reason that pilots bitch so much yet refuse to leave the company that they supposedly despise is because of seniority. You hate the place but leaving means you’d have to start over at the bottom somewhere else. Being junior sucks, even if the airline might actually have a better culture or better pay. The complaints you are hearing are the result of this frustration
Movement from company to company in most other industries, and certainly any management positions does not require starting from the bottom so people aren’t “stuck” where they are miserable

[MorePower!]

The reason that pilots bitch so much yet refuse to leave the company that they supposedly despise is because of seniority. You hate the place but leaving means you’d have to start over at the bottom somewhere else. Being junior sucks, even if the airline might actually have a better culture or better pay. The complaints you are hearing are the result of this frustration
Movement from company to company in most other industries, and certainly any management positions does not require starting from the bottom so people aren’t “stuck” where they are miserable

I am a pilot at a major, so I completely understand seniority. It just does not change what I said. It's not easy to just leave.. but I stand by my words. If "you" don't like it.. leave. Change your attitude.. or forever be miserable. It's a simple concept.. but hard to execute.

All I'm saying is, it's not as bad as some people make it seem. It's actually better than a lot of careers out there. And being angry and sad everyday at work is just not healthy, for the individual or the team they are working with. So if its really that bad.. change your outlook, or change what you are doing. We all have choices, its just easier to bitch and moan and blame someone else.

I have friends that had that attitude, or just weren't happy. And it took the Pandemic to push them to change them selves. Realize what they had.. or leave the industry.

[ALPApolicy]

Pointed at no one in particular.

All I can say is this..

You can be a delusional hater.. thinking that the company is always out to get you, their sole goal is to wreck your tiny butt.. and to ruin your career. You can go through your entire career, stressed, scared.. annoy the hell out of the people you work with and bring down the mood every time. 787 being ordered.. "they are gonna screw us, you watch!!" Expanding Internationally "yeeep they are definetly going to screw us on this too! Screw the Corp!!"

This negative thinking and hate is just unwarranted. No one is making you work here.. leave if your life is that miserable. Make a change. "You" are the only person responsible for your own well being and day to day enjoyment.

If flying for an Airline is not doing it for you, and all you can think of is how negative everything is. Maybe it's time to rethink things.. maybe it's time to quit. Or go to an another Airline where the realization will be made.. thats its a little better.. or a little worse.. or the same.

At some point a realization has to be made, that it's your problem, not the companies. You will be unhappy no matter what the company does. Leave with your negativity in tow to a different industry.

I'm sick of people moaning and bitching of how terrible things are.. and just making it not fun for everyone else. And doing nothing about it. You will end up bitching and moaning and hating your work life for the rest of your career.. and it will get you absolutely no where. Change your self, enjoy the little things. Understand how fortunate you are in an Airliner in Canada. If you don't feel like you are, do something about it! Make change. Don't bitch and moan.

The end.

I didn't write that. But I would have.

[Mach1]

There's nothing wrong with trying to fix up your neighbourhood and making it better for everyone instead of moving to a new neighbourhood.

I wouldn't say things are terrible, but I am not blind to the plans that are in play. Quitting and moving on are a product of age. If you are young and have the time to start over, that is sound advice. But after a certain point you are fairly committed to staying where you are unless you can just retire and walk away completely. Then there is that ugly middle zone where it's a gamble either way.

In the end, it is better to see the universe and it's workings for what they really are instead of what you wish them to be. Then you can make informed choices in regards to everything in your life.

The pendulum swings and change is the only universal constant.. and taxes, apparently.

[MorePower!]

There's nothing wrong with trying to fix up your neighbourhood and making it better for everyone instead of moving to a new neighbourhood.

I wouldn't say things are terrible, but I am not blind to the plans that are in play. Quitting and moving on are a product of age. If you are young and have the time to start over, that is sound advice. But after a certain point you are fairly committed to staying where you are unless you can just retire and walk away completely. Then there is that ugly middle zone where it's a gamble either way.

In the end, it is better to see the universe and it's workings for what they really are instead of what you wish them to be. Then you can make informed choices in regards to everything in your life.

The pendulum swings and change is the only universal constant.. and taxes, apparently.

I actually like the neighborhood analogy. I don't disagree that fixing up your neighborhood is a bad idea, but most people will just yell and scream and do nothing but that. And they will become the miserable Frank (sorry Frank's) down the street that everyone has to walk past everyday.

At a certain point you have to actually fix the neighborhood, learn to live with it and enjoy that neighborhood, unless you are happy being bitter for the remainder of your life in that neighborhood.. or move away.

You wouldn't live in a shitty neighborhood for the next 10-20 years, you would most likely actually try to fix it, instead of stewing about it in your basement mancave and yelling at the neighbors every weekend and bringing them down. Or you would see the good things and enjoy them.

Moving away is the hardest of them all.. but what are the options?
Be miserable and make everyone else's life miserable for the rest of your career.. or make a change within your self or your surroundings.

Like I said I have friends who have done complete career changes, its not easy by any means. But they are infinitely happier. It gets harder with age, but having that outlook will limit you and your wellbeing.

Alot of people believe age is a limiting factor in alot of aspects of life. If you study wealthy people, you will notice that a big % of them didn't get to where they are untill their 50s, if they had that same outlook they would have possibly been stuck in that same dead end job or situation where they would have been unhappy for the remainder of their life. Instead they made a change. No one can do it except for "you".

If you made a mistake by becoming a pilot or choosing the wrong path in this industry the only person at fault is you. It sucks.. but you have two options, continue in your misery or get out. It's different if you are actually enacting change to your situation. But bitching on forums or in the cockpit of how miserable life is, how they have no money, and how the corporation is out to get them.. is a waste of energy. Making a change and leaving the industry is not the end of the world, if it brings peace.

This all sounds like some philosophical crap.. but it really isn't. It's that simple and that difficult. Most have a really hard time with change. They are afraid of "throwing it all away". But is it really throwing it all away if you find equilibrium and happiness?

And just to be clear. I don't believe things are perfect in this industry, things can certainly be better. But personally I find it a waste of my time to bitch about it. If I found things to be bad enough, I would try to fix it or move on.

But luckily, I see that I work about 5 months out of the year with all the time off and vacation that an Airline brings me. I make pretty damn good money for my time (because I live within my means, and dont participate in "vanity consumerism"). I come home and never think about work. I have good benefits. I actually enjoy flying an Airliner with my team. If these things don't bring you joy, maybe its not the right fit.

Maybe running a business is your fit? Or being a fisherman? Or what ever else that may bring you happiness in this one life.

[Mach1]

Reading through that, I agree with you. If you are miserable you do need to look at why you are miserable. Then work towards letting that go or moving towards something else.

[88gtst]

Yeah, selling WestJet vacations through Swoop will bring growth at mainline. Sure.....

Put your anger aside for a moment. Swoop is wholly owned by WestJet and success at Swoop means success for WestJet.

[88gtst]

Why would Swoop exist if you think that WestJet does not want it to be successful? Do you think it would exist if it wasn't?

I'll answer that one.

Does WestJet want Swoop to be successful? Yes... at the expense of WestJet's employees.

So you are accusing the company of malicious intent?

Absolutely. Don't forget how those aircraft first got off the ground, with scab pilots. Swoop was and is a union busting "airline".. that's it's only purpose of existing.

[imjustlurking]

I'll answer that one.

Does WestJet want Swoop to be successful? Yes... at the expense of WestJet's employees.

So you are accusing the company of malicious intent?

Absolutely. Don't forget how those aircraft first got off the ground, with scab pilots. Swoop was and is a union busting "airline".. that's it's only purpose of existing.

Sure, you can argue that it was intended as a union busting airline, but it is and has been for years part of the exact same pilot bargaining unit. On the other hand, Encore is a separate bargaining unit and does not get the support it deserves from the WJA/WSW bargaining unit.

[pacman007]

So you are accusing the company of malicious intent?

Absolutely. Don't forget how those aircraft first got off the ground, with scab pilots. Swoop was and is a union busting "airline".. that's it's only purpose of existing.

Sure, you can argue that it was intended as a union busting airline, but it is and has been for years part of the exact same pilot bargaining unit. On the other hand, Encore is a separate bargaining unit and does not get the support it deserves from the WJA/WSW bargaining unit.

The whole point of all this, from a pilots point of view, which airline can you get a stable long career AND AFFORD TO RETIRE AT THE END OF YOUR CAREER! Is there any jobs left that can give a pilot with a family a good retirement? Other then AC of course

[imjustlurking]

Absolutely. Don't forget how those aircraft first got off the ground, with scab pilots. Swoop was and is a union busting "airline".. that's it's only purpose of existing.

Sure, you can argue that it was intended as a union busting airline, but it is and has been for years part of the exact same pilot bargaining unit. On the other hand, Encore is a separate bargaining unit and does not get the support it deserves from the WJA/WSW bargaining unit.

The whole point of all this, from a pilots point of view, which airline can you get a stable long career AND AFFORD TO RETIRE AT THE END OF YOUR CAREER! Is there any jobs left that can give a pilot with a family a good retirement? Other then AC of course

Before you go tooting the Air Canada horn, go take a look at the AC subforum here.

[MorePower!]

Absolutely. Don't forget how those aircraft first got off the ground, with scab pilots. Swoop was and is a union busting "airline".. that's it's only purpose of existing.

Sure, you can argue that it was intended as a union busting airline, but it is and has been for years part of the exact same pilot bargaining unit. On the other hand, Encore is a separate bargaining unit and does not get the support it deserves from the WJA/WSW bargaining unit.

The whole point of all this, from a pilots point of view, which airline can you get a stable long career AND AFFORD TO RETIRE AT THE END OF YOUR CAREER! Is there any jobs left that can give a pilot with a family a good retirement? Other then AC of course

If you can't retire very comfortably after a career at Westjet, you have planning/consumption/image problems. Live within your means, save/invest. Don't be buying stupid things you don't need. Or just because you are an Airline pilot.. "well Delta makes this.. so I should be able to afford 3 cars and 2 boats and useless junk" that's a race to the poor house.. and will guarantee you retire broke. All for what? So you can appear rich?


The issue with retirement is always with the person. It's just easy to blame everyone else instead of owning up to your short comings and lack of planning and self control. If you don't agree with this, you are in denial, or have a lack of financial know how. That can be fixed, pick up some books, learn some things.. and start living within your means.

When we as pilots make 3-4 times what an avarage Canadian makes.. and can't retire? That is 100% a you problem. You could live a very nice life and still invest enough for retirement. If you choose to spend it all, then you must be okay with living "rich" and having nothing for your later years. It's quite simple.. but all comes down to Vanity, and the keeping up with the Jones's.

If you feel like 200-300k/annum is not enough to live a good life and retire extremely comfortably.. maybe you are in the wrong career. Maybe it's time to become a business owner, a ceo perrhaps? Then you can drive that Audi and own that 1.5 million dollar house and retire comfortably while showing off your digs to the strangers around you.

Just take this back to basics, and ask your self.. why can't I retire comfortably? And instead of bitching about it and hoping the company gives you another 100k raise or what ever magic number you need.. do something about it, take control of your finances, make changes and don't rely on the company.

Your income as a Canadian pilot puts you in the top 5%.. what you do with it is up to you.

[sstaurus]

It’s definitely important to not be angry and resentful all the time, and many pilots are guilty of that. The people on the ground made/make this place the best… But it just gets you down seeing upper management doing their best to dismantle the good parts at every turn.

[Mac08]

Sure, you can argue that it was intended as a union busting airline, but it is and has been for years part of the exact same pilot bargaining unit. On the other hand, Encore is a separate bargaining unit and does not get the support it deserves from the WJA/WSW bargaining unit.

The whole point of all this, from a pilots point of view, which airline can you get a stable long career AND AFFORD TO RETIRE AT THE END OF YOUR CAREER! Is there any jobs left that can give a pilot with a family a good retirement? Other then AC of course

Before you go tooting the Air Canada horn, go take a look at the AC subforum here.

As a long time "lurker" seeing some of your posts I gathered you're a early 20 year old living of the Kool-Aid of Encore... Now in bed with someone from management or have a gun to your head every time you login. Actually I'm going with you sign in from the company iPad thinking Westjet tracks your post.

AC might be bad, yeah we're not perfect, but how many Encore pilots have you flown that have came from Air Canada or Jazz with the hopes of being a 737 captain at Westjet? There's a reason why you hear of Encore/Westjet pilots going to Air Canada/Jazz and not the other way around. I've actually NEVER heard of anyone going from Red to Teal. Don't think the AC subforum is stopping anyone.

Honestly Westjet Management sucks. Plain and Simple. Before COVID it was seeing how fast they could cut paycheques while giving themselves the extra they shaved off. The fact you can have the Airports Executive say on a company webinar - Hey Tier 1 bases, you're not being outsourced, but I've said that we wouldn't outsource before and look what happened. Like who does that?

Before you tell me I'm unhappy I should leave. I already did. I was one of the many Westjetters that realized the gold standard in Canada is Red. The worst part is I have a lot of friends still at Westjet. Amazing people - FA's, MTCE, CSA's, etc who are so demoralized because Westjet keeps screwing them harder than AC management could dream of. So keep doing you, flying and do what you want, but don't ever openly say AC is near WJ without looking like a fool.

[Canadaflyer46]

The WJ pay structure has always been "T4 rich but cash poor". Cripple pilots with near $1000 disability insurance deductions and interest free loans to the company (the ESP match), and it'll mean virtually all pilots have to rely on working some overtime to pad the pay cheques. When top scale 787 captains are taking home under 2 grand on a cheque you know something is severely wrong.

[airway]

The WJ pay structure has always been "T4 rich but cash poor". Cripple pilots with near $1000 disability insurance deductions and interest free loans to the company (the ESP match), and it'll mean virtually all pilots have to rely on working some overtime to pad the pay cheques. When top scale 787 captains are taking home under 2 grand on a cheque you know something is severely wrong.

"interest free loans to the company (the ESP match)"

Usually ESP programs are a great deal for the employee and are voluntary. How does your ESP end up being a loan, and benefit the company?



.

[lownslow]

top scale 787 captains are taking home under 2 grand on a cheque

What? I made more than that teaching a light turboprop groundschool last week. That’s messed up if true.

[Canadaflyer46]

The WJ pay structure has always been "T4 rich but cash poor". Cripple pilots with near $1000 disability insurance deductions and interest free loans to the company (the ESP match), and it'll mean virtually all pilots have to rely on working some overtime to pad the pay cheques. When top scale 787 captains are taking home under 2 grand on a cheque you know something is severely wrong.

"interest free loans to the company (the ESP match)"

Usually ESP programs are a great deal for the employee and are voluntary. How does your ESP end up being a loan, and benefit the company?



.

As far as I understand you pay the tax on the 20% company match off your cheque, but agree to let them keep that 20% for a year and do with as they see fit. After that time (and assuming the company is still operating) you get to have your money back.