What is flat pay?

[Dronepiper]

I keep seeing this term used. I don’t understand it. I know AC pay sucks for the first 4 years, but why is it called “flat pay”?

Do AC pilots not get OT or perdiems in their first 4 years? What does a year 5 AC pilot make?

What’s the difference? Why is that term not used at WJ or trz where pay also sucks for the first few years?

[NotDirty!]

Once upon a time, “flat pay” at AC was as you describe… you got paid the same regardless of how much or little you flew. (I believe you still received per diems, so not quite as bad as your description). This lasted for 2 years (3 if you were an RP, iirc).

The modern “flat pay” which was increased to 4 years after FOS, is not truly flat, as it is an hourly rate after 75 hours, or more simply an hourly rate with a 75 hour guarantee.

The difference is that pilots on formula pay receive a base amount, plus a weight factor, plus a speed factor, plus a different hourly rate for day or night flying. The “flat” pay is just a single rate, only changing with years of service, not all this other complexity, and the same regardless of day or night (the day/night split is based on time of day, not actual darkness… so 12 hours of any day attract night rates, and the other 12 get day rates)

Formula pay pilots also receive additional pay for overseas and/or “navaid” pay, if your flight leaves Canada/USA/Mexico. There is a minimum monthly guarantee of these, depending on aircraft type. Flat pay pilots do not receive either of these OVS or NAV pay.

So FLAT pay is a bit of a misnomer, but there is some truth to it. The term is a carryover from when pay was truly flat.

[NotDirty!]

Year 4 pay is $87.20 per hour, for all types, for FO or RP positions.
Year 5 pay varies from $93.05 for a 787 RP, day rate, to $109.58 for an A220 FO, day rate, all the way up to $165.49 for a 777 FO, night rate.

[ZBBYLW]

As mentioned flat pay doesn't exist anymore (since 2012).

We now have a new hire 4 year pay scale which most refer to as flat pay.

In any respect it's a fixed pay rate, no day/night or overseas/Nav. It's just one pay scale with a monthly guarantee of 75 hours. If you work more than 75 hours you get paid for it.

If you upgrade within the first 4 years you go to formula pay as a CA. Some new hires were placed as WB FOs which made AC probably have the lowest paid WB FOs in the world.

[88gtst]

The modern “flat pay” which was increased to 4 years after FOS, is not truly flat, as it is an hourly rate after 75 hours, or more simply an hourly rate with a 75 hour guarantee.

Well they did bump everyone down to 55 hours on Covid MOA1. So is it really a minimum? And now there's a dbm-2 for reserve holders, but low and behold it doesn't count for pilots on flat pay. So a formula pay pilot can have a higher minimum guarantee now than a flat pay pilot. Thanks ACPA.

[RVR6000]

We had a chance to fix this 4 year pay scale in 2014, however a whopping 84% of the membership were fine with it and locked it in till 2024.

[Aspiredtofly]

We had a chance to fix this 4 year pay scale in 2014, however a whopping 84% of the membership were fine with it and locked it in till 2024.

This is the only reason why. The ones who vote for it are the employees itself. Heads up for 2024

[88gtst]

We had a chance to fix this 4 year pay scale in 2014, however a whopping 84% of the membership were fine with it and locked it in till 2024.

Well when your own union buys in to and sells the fear to the membership, that's what happens. Thankfully we have some new blood including a few young rebel rousers in the MEC now. Let's see if they can do anything to change the apathetic and old ways of this union.

[Col. Panic]

The modern “flat pay” which was increased to 4 years after FOS, is not truly flat, as it is an hourly rate after 75 hours, or more simply an hourly rate with a 75 hour guarantee.

Well they did bump everyone down to 55 hours on Covid MOA1. So is it really a minimum? And now there's a dbm-2 for reserve holders, but low and behold it doesn't count for pilots on flat pay. So a formula pay pilot can have a higher minimum guarantee now than a flat pay pilot. Thanks ACPA.

The 55 hours during MOA1 was a total kick in the balls. The “flat pay” portion of the contract was written specifically to avoid just that kind of thing! An extra 20 hours of pay for the flat pay pilots would not have made much difference to the company that was bleeding money like it was going out of style, but would have made a huge difference in the lives of most of those pilots!

The current dbm-2 not applying to flat pay also boggles the mind. The company wants to have their cake and eat it too, and they are getting away with it!

[Blueontop]

What is the logic/reasoning behind it? Why would the union vote in favor of it?

[88gtst]

What is the logic/reasoning behind it? Why would the union vote in favor of it?

For MOA1, we didn't get a vote. The MEC of the day passed it without ratification. Under the leadership of one of the worst Chair's we've had in recent memory.

As for the DBM-2 issue, the negotiating team conveniently omitted the fact it wouldn't apply to those of us on flat pay. They sold it as some huge win, and now months later is when people are finally realizing it doesn't apply to 50% of the pilot group.

Mind you that whole deal (AIP) was trash from the start, and I'm really disappointed it passed. We have a lot of fearful pilots at this company who just keep voting yes because "well the union said it's the best we can do". The loss of seniority reserve was a huge kick in the nuts. And after the fact we find out how terrible the rules actually are. Can't bid RAPs, company can move them at their discretion, RAPs every 30 minutes so no one is ever equal and the company claims "best fit" no matter what.

When I started at this company I didn't think the contract could get any worse. Boy was I wrong.

[Blueontop]

I’m really at a disadvantage understanding this,

MOA1
DBM2
AIP
RAPS

What do these mean?

[NotDirty!]

MOA1 was the first Memorandum Of Agreement regarding COVID, which allowed the company to pay everyone 55 hours per month, whereas the lowest the contract would allow was 65 hours per month.

DBM is Designated Blocking Maximum, or the most hours the company is allowed to assign a block holder in a month. This value varies from month to month, and between different types, bases, and seats. Based on DBM, there is a formula to calculate Minimum Blocking Guarantee (MBG), which is the minimum they can pay you per month. As part of the “improvements” to the reserve system, they have increased MBG for reserve pilots to two hours less than the DBM for that seat/type/base. AKA DBM minus 2 or DBM - 2. Unless you are a flat pay pilot, in which case reserve MBG is not necessarily DBM - 2.

AIP is Agreement In Principle, the term for the omnibus bill of CA amendments that we voted on in the fall of 2021.

RAPs are Reserve Availability Periods, as defined in the new CARs that took effect in December 2020. When on reserve, you have to be available during your RAP to go flying, but with the new CARs there is also a limit on RDP or Reserve Duty Period, measured from the start of the RAP until the end of a flight duty period. For example, you can have a RAP from 0700-1900, and if you get a call at 1700, your RDP limits you so you can’t be expected to go and operate a 12 hour duty day, after you’ve been “sitting by the phone” all day. IIRC the max RDP is 18 hours, so in the example above you would be a pumpkin at 0100 (the old reserve system could have had you operate until 0800!). There is this advantages in being able to change your RAP so you are legal to do a trip. As it stands, the company seems to be able to change your RAP when they need to, so you are legal for the trip they want you to take. But they will not change your RAP at your request, if for example there was a trip that YOU wanted. There is also no way to bid on RAPs, they are assigned at the company’s whim, and even then not always in accordance with the contract.

There is a lot more to say on all of those points, but that should give you some background.

[co-joe]

What is the logic/reasoning behind it? Why would the union vote in favor of it?

Because the people in power at ACPA are not on flat pay, all they want is more for themselves, and they will happily take it from those who have no power to resist. You ever heard the expression that in Canadaian aviation "we eat our young"?

[Col. Panic]

What is the logic/reasoning behind it? Why would the union vote in favor of it?

The logic is it saves the company money. The union argues that you spend the majority of your career at year 12 pay, so that should be their focus.

[rookiepilot]

Something to be avoided.

[PeterParker]

What is the logic/reasoning behind it? Why would the union vote in favor of it?

The logic is it saves the company money. The union argues that you spend the majority of your career at year 12 pay, so that should be their focus.

I hope no one actually believes this nonsense. All the pay that they "saved" from paying pittance to everyone across the board (and yes, that includes those stagnated on Year 12 pay for life) is that the executives get to pad up their own wallets. If there is ONE thing that we should all learn from capitalism that we witnessed first hand over the pandemic is that no company is out there to give anyone a living wage unless the employee or the union that represents the employee fights tooth and nail for it. We don't have a shortage of jobs or employees in Canada as the corporate would would like you to believe, we have a shortage of good employers who pay well.

AC is the devil of them all since they pretty much set the standard for the rest of the industry and they do a bang-up job of keeping us all poor.

Also, a side-note - the 1500 hour rule will never solve this problem as long as there are 12-year captains ruling the roost of the unions. The unions really should have fair representation from the lowest paid pilots so that they can make the case why flat pay is a stupid rule.

[Arnie Pye]

It's an insult to anyone who doesn't live in their mom's basement.

The union should argue that all Executives should earn flat pay for four years. No bonuses and only a basic salary and medical dental. Just see how many quality applicants they get. If it's good for the goose, it's good for the gander.

[Ash Ketchum]

I often think of hanging up the headset, going for the MBA and joining the executives. If you can't beat them may as well join them...

[RVR6000]

What is the logic/reasoning behind it? Why would the union vote in favor of it?

The logic is it saves the company money. The union argues that you spend the majority of your career at year 12 pay, so that should be their focus.

AC is the devil of them all since they pretty much set the standard for the rest of the industry and they do a bang-up job of keeping us all poor.

Maybe, then again we have pilots accepting the same position as AC for 50% the hourly rates. Flair, Swoop et al are paying half the AC rates for Captains. How does ACPA go on to negotiate such a delta.

[PeterParker]

Maybe, then again we have pilots accepting the same position as AC for 50% the hourly rates. Flair, Swoop et al are paying half the AC rates for Captains. How does ACPA go on to negotiate such a delta.

Or maybe ACPA not consider it as a race to the bottom, but rather as a pull the rest of the industry up so that we won't have to get to the point similar to where the US airlines were a few years ago, where pilots had to live off food stamps?

Glass half full or empty is really how one wishes to see it. I honestly don't think any of the top executives are ever going to take a pay cut at any major airline any time in the near future. With inflation rising so quickly, why must pilots always be the one "making the sacrifices" to keep the company from sinking? If a company is that desperate for cash that it can't pay its own employees, we might as well let it drown. Isn't that what capitalism is all about?