Truckers convoy

[photofly]

The emergencies act has been on the statute since 1985, and it had oversight at that time. I accept that not everyone (including me) believes it's been used appropriately, but the act explicitly allows action to be taken first and the justified after. Tamara Lich wanted to push the boundaries in order to find out what the government will or won't accept. She wanted to go up against the state, and she has, and nobody can really be surprised the state has pushed back.

[rookiepilot]

The emergencies act has been on the statute since 1985, and it had oversight at that time. I accept that not everyone (including me) believes it's been used appropriately, but the act explicitly allows action to be taken first and the justified after. Tamara Lich wanted to push the boundaries in order to find out what the government will or won't accept. She wanted to go up against the state, and she has, and nobody can really be surprised the state has pushed back.

Fair enough.

As i said before, I doubt history will be kind.

[‘Bob’]

Wave those tighty whites boys!!!

https://www.reddit.com/r/HermanCainAwar ... ame=iossmf

[rookiepilot]

Even the media are subject to arrest.

Still sounding like the Canada we all know and love?

Ottawa Police @OttawaPolice
All media who are attending the area, please keep a distance and stay out of police operations for your safety. Anyone found within areas undergoing enforcement may be subject to arrest. There will be a media availability later today at 474 Elgin Street

Media responds: (CBC, defending their own interests, if no one else’s)

EvanDyerCBC's avatar
Evan Dyer
@EvanDyerCBC
Replying to @OttawaPolice
Under EA, police have no authority to arrest anyone who “resides, works or is moving through that area for reasons other than to participate in or facilitate the assembly.” The same force that failed to enforce laws for three weeks, now threatens to illegally arrest journalists.

Of course, some of them should be arrested for helping provoke this whole mess

[pelmet]

The same force that failed to enforce laws for three weeks, now threatens to illegally arrest journalists.

Of course, some of them should be arrested for helping provoke this whole mess

There seems to be a bit of irony in your statement here.

[digits_]

Question for people who grew up in Canada...

Reading posts here and reports in the media and on facebook etc, I can't help but wonder, are Canadians not used to protests?

Allow me to explain. Where I grew up, there were protest on the news pretty much every week. And many more were happening in the capital, which didn't always get reported. If the only thing that happened during a protest was some torched police cars and some non-life threatening injuries, it was a 'good', calm protest.

I've seen protests and gatherings from refugees in public parks and churches, lasting weeks or months. Recurrent protests (weekly) by students skipping school, the yellow jacket protests almost destroying entire streets... When violence and damage to private property happens, that's when the police intervened. But you could tear down statues or spray paint whatever you wanted on public buildings, and the response would be very mild. Eventually the trouble makers would maybe get arrested and fined or convicted. And sometimes a non profit or other organisation would be investigated by the government, and after some months in court corporate accounts could get frozen or seized, but I've never ever heard of people getting their accounts frozen without a trial, and even then, the result was maybe a fine and/or prison, but rarely, if ever, freezing of personal accounts.

Which brings me to my second question: why this reaction of freezing accounts and refusing to talk to the protesters?
It's nice to let the mind wander and come up with all kinds of conspiracy theories, but what would make this acceptable from a Canadian culture point of view? I don't often agree with politicians, but most of the time I can understand why they are doing something they are doing. But for this particular event, I truly am flabbergasted as to why this seems to bug the government so much.

If this event were to happen where I grew up -and similar things did, eg farmers protesting against milk quote in tractor convoys-, the government would actually provide basic infrastructure such as portable toilets to minimize the inconvenience for other citizens.

Anyway, wondering if someone could attempt to answer this somewhat objectively....

[photofly]

It’s hard to put the cause anywhere other than JT’s intransigence, which is usually a sign of insecurity.

[rookiepilot]

It’s hard to put the cause anywhere other than JT’s intransigence, which is usually a sign of insecurity.

He is a weak, weak man, petty, insecure and mean. A canny, razor sharp politician, truly terrible leader.

This is entirely his responsibility.

I'm sorry. Its how I honestly see it. Breaks my heart.

I’ve never reached out to my MP before in my life. No serious reason.

I have written 4 times and had 2 long conversations.

From my understanding they have been deluged with calls and messages, FWIW.

[7ECA]

I'm finding it difficult to summon a lot of sympathy for her, unfortunately.

What I actually think is that to expect someone to openly campaign for and receive millions of dollars, much from foreign countries, to fund a subversive and seditious campaign to bring down a democratic government and then not get some fairly tough treatment at the end of it, is way way beyond naïve.

How did she honestly expect this was going to end? To me, everything seems to be happening in a very please-thank-you-and-sorry Canadian way. In many countries she'd be reading with dilated eyes her forced confession on the nine o'clock news, or else there'd be a bullet put through her head by now. Thank god for Canada.

Indeed. It seems too many are willing to ignore the memorandum circulated by the convoy stating openly their seditious intent.

The protest "organizers", if one can call someone that after a mob forms, have been afforded all the rights they are entitled to under the Charter - which is not suspended under the Emergencies Act (and is a major difference from the War Measures Act that preceded it).

I've said it before, and I'll most certainly say it again, everyone involved in the protests across the country including the extremely damaging blockades of border crossings has been handled with kid gloves by the authorities. For better or for worse, the reaction of authorities to a long planned and publicized campaign of this nature will have a lasting effect, and the action and inaction will be noted by various other groups whom feel as though they have a grievance with government(s).

I'm hardly a fan of this government and a number of their bills and policies, but to those whom feel as though a great disservice was done in not negotiating with the "leaders" of the mob; how does one go about negotiating or opening a dialogue with a group which seeks your removal from power by any means up to and including force? Do you believe that an openly seditious group is willing to negotiate in good faith with the government they seek to overthrow?

[rookiepilot]

I'm finding it difficult to summon a lot of sympathy for her, unfortunately.

What I actually think is that to expect someone to openly campaign for and receive millions of dollars, much from foreign countries, to fund a subversive and seditious campaign to bring down a democratic government and then not get some fairly tough treatment at the end of it, is way way beyond naïve.

How did she honestly expect this was going to end? To me, everything seems to be happening in a very please-thank-you-and-sorry Canadian way. In many countries she'd be reading with dilated eyes her forced confession on the nine o'clock news, or else there'd be a bullet put through her head by now. Thank god for Canada.

Indeed. It seems too many are willing to ignore the memorandum circulated by the convoy stating openly their seditious intent.

The protest "organizers", if one can call someone that after a mob forms, have been afforded all the rights they are entitled to under the Charter - which is not suspended under the Emergencies Act (and is a major difference from the War Measures Act that preceded it).

I've said it before, and I'll most certainly say it again, everyone involved in the protests across the country including the extremely damaging blockades of border crossings has been handled with kid gloves by the authorities. For better or for worse, the reaction of authorities to a long planned and publicized campaign of this nature will have a lasting effect, and the action and inaction will be noted by various other groups whom feel as though they have a grievance with government(s).

I'm hardly a fan of this government and a number of their bills and policies, but to those whom feel as though a great disservice was done in not negotiating with the "leaders" of the mob; how does one go about negotiating or opening a dialogue with a group which seeks your removal from power by any means up to and including force? Do you believe that an openly seditious group is willing to negotiate in good faith with the government they seek to overthrow?

I respect your POV but don’t see, and haven’t seen, this group as an organized mob with seditious intent. A few loudmouths, for sure. The vast, vast majority? No chance.

Even Jan 6th in the US didn’t meet that standard to me, although one could argue it was closer.

JT could have lowered the temperature on numerous occasions, even before the convoy reached Ottawa. He chose not to.

How I see it.

What I do worry about, and wrote my MP about, is how this was handled increases the risk of further radicalizing and inflaming a segment of Canadians.

[pelmet]

Question for people who grew up in Canada...

Reading posts here and reports in the media and on facebook etc, I can't help but wonder, are Canadians not used to protests?

Allow me to explain. Where I grew up, there were protest on the news pretty much every week. And many more were happening in the capital, which didn't always get reported. If the only thing that happened during a protest was some torched police cars and some non-life threatening injuries, it was a 'good', calm protest.

I've seen protests and gatherings from refugees in public parks and churches, lasting weeks or months. Recurrent protests (weekly) by students skipping school, the yellow jacket protests almost destroying entire streets... When violence and damage to private property happens, that's when the police intervened. But you could tear down statues or spray paint whatever you wanted on public buildings, and the response would be very mild. Eventually the trouble makers would maybe get arrested and fined or convicted. And sometimes a non profit or other organisation would be investigated by the government, and after some months in court corporate accounts could get frozen or seized, but I've never ever heard of people getting their accounts frozen without a trial, and even then, the result was maybe a fine and/or prison, but rarely, if ever, freezing of personal accounts.

Which brings me to my second question: why this reaction of freezing accounts and refusing to talk to the protesters?
It's nice to let the mind wander and come up with all kinds of conspiracy theories, but what would make this acceptable from a Canadian culture point of view? I don't often agree with politicians, but most of the time I can understand why they are doing something they are doing. But for this particular event, I truly am flabbergasted as to why this seems to bug the government so much.

If this event were to happen where I grew up -and similar things did, eg farmers protesting against milk quote in tractor convoys-, the government would actually provide basic infrastructure such as portable toilets to minimize the inconvenience for other citizens.

Anyway, wondering if someone could attempt to answer this somewhat objectively....

Quite simple....we don't want our country being like France. Repeated strikes, violent protests, taxpayers actually paying for people who are out to inconvenience others.

[photofly]

I respect your POV but don’t see, and haven’t seen, this group as an organized mob with seditious intent. A few loudmouths, for sure. The vast, vast majority? No chance.

Lucky, then, that only a few loudmouths and not the vast vast majority are being prosecuted, then, wouldn’t you say?

JT could have defused this, and it’s a failure of his leadership that he didn’t. It’s a failure of policing that an occupation was allowed to occur. Nonetheless, neither of those facts let’s the protestors or organizers off the hook for their illegal actions in Ottawa.

[7ECA]

I respect your POV but don’t see, and haven’t seen, this group as an organized mob with seditious intent. A few loudmouths, for sure. The vast, vast majority? No chance.

Even Jan 6th in the US didn’t meet that standard to me, although one could argue it was closer.

JT could have lowered the temperature on numerous occasions, even before the convoy reached Ottawa. He chose not to.

How I see it.

What I do worry about, and wrote my MP about, is how this was handled increases the risk of further radicalizing and inflaming a segment of Canadians.

http://www.avcanada.ca/forums2/viewtopi ... 5#p1183365

Covers off the memorandum and a few choice comments that seem fitting.

If January 6th wasn't seditious, or an attempted insurrection, what fits either definition in your opinion?

How does one "lower the temperature", when the intent is the removal of government as one of the core values of the group - above and beyond the stated removal of vaccination mandates for cross border truckers? Of course, we later saw the messaging morph into a hodgepodge of demands...

It certainly will radicalize certain elements of the right further, because they've seen firsthand evidence that they can telegraph their intention to occupy the nation's capital, blockade border crossings, and agitate for sedition, and nothing will be done to stop them.

[rookiepilot]

I respect your POV but don’t see, and haven’t seen, this group as an organized mob with seditious intent. A few loudmouths, for sure. The vast, vast majority? No chance.

Lucky, then, that only a few loudmouths and not the vast vast majority are being prosecuted, then, wouldn’t you say?

JT could have defused this, and it’s a failure of his leadership that he didn’t. It’s a failure of policing that an occupation was allowed to occur. Nonetheless, neither of those facts let’s the protestors or organizers off the hook.

Agreed.

I’ve repeatedly said anyone committing illegal acts should be arrested, charged, prosecuted—- within the law.

JT’s failure of leadership is a story that is a thousand times more important for this country— IMO.

And its worse than lowering the temperature - 7ECA — how about not raising it in the first place?

JT on numerous occasions has shamed and insulted the unvaccinated, and he definitely went out of his way to inflame the situation with personal horrible attacks. He would have gotten a holiday on AvCanada.

Inexcusable for any leader, mayor, premier, or certainly prime minister.

I would have been much happier if he’d kept his mouth shut, and Ottawa blocked the trucks from entering in the first place, then promptly arrested any lawbreakers.

[photofly]

I think the ease of the internet is also a factor here. It makes it very easy to publish a manifesto to take down the government, attract a mob, and solicit funding. These are things that thirty years ago needed printing presses and an army of volunteers on street corners. There weren’t many causes that could summon that kind of infrastructure, but now anyone can, within minutes.

Yes, it’s great that causes can attract likeminded individuals, and raise money easily, but It makes it easy to raise spectres that shouldn’t be raised. At the very least doing so means giving an easy handle to people who do want to suppress legitimate protest.

[pelmet]

I respect your POV but don’t see, and haven’t seen, this group as an organized mob with seditious intent. A few loudmouths, for sure. The vast, vast majority? No chance.

Even Jan 6th in the US didn’t meet that standard to me, although one could argue it was closer.

JT could have lowered the temperature on numerous occasions, even before the convoy reached Ottawa. He chose not to.

How I see it.

What I do worry about, and wrote my MP about, is how this was handled increases the risk of further radicalizing and inflaming a segment of Canadians.

http://www.avcanada.ca/forums2/viewtopi ... 5#p1183365

Covers off the memorandum and a few choice comments that seem fitting.

If January 6th wasn't seditious, or an attempted insurrection, what fits either definition in your opinion?

How does one "lower the temperature", when the intent is the removal of government as one of the core values of the group - above and beyond the stated removal of vaccination mandates for cross border truckers? Of course, we later saw the messaging morph into a hodgepodge of demands...

It certainly will radicalize certain elements of the right further, because they've seen firsthand evidence that they can telegraph their intention to occupy the nation's capital, blockade border crossings, and agitate for sedition, and nothing will be done to stop them.

Kind of like the violent radicalized left as seen in BC. So sad that political opportunists on both sides minimize what happens on one side but not the other.

[rookiepilot]

Thought provoking.

https://bariweiss.substack.com/p/a-soci ... source=url

[photofly]

Only to the extent of what the author chooses to omit, and how selective his "facts" are.

[rookiepilot]

Suppose conservative MP’s could be liars. Maybe not. You decide.


markstrahl's avatar
Mark Strahl, MP @markstrahl
20h
Briane is a single mom from Chilliwack working a minimum wage job. She gave $50 to the convoy when it was 100% legal. She hasn’t participated in any other way. Her bank account has now been frozen. This is who Justin Trudeau is actually targeting with his Emergencies Act orders.

This is really gross if true. Media……

markstrahl's avatar
Mark Strahl, MP
@markstrahl
To those of you, especially the media, demanding more details on Briane, having seen what has been said about her online today and what has been done to other convoy donors in the last weeks I am not going to help you dox her. I know who she is and I won’t stop fighting for her.

[photofly]

Taking a step back from individual cases, do you think it's appropriate for people to give money to ad-hoc protest movements?
Or, to put it another way, do you think it's appropriate for ad-hoc protest movements to be supplied with millions of dollars of funds?

[rookiepilot]

Taking a step back from individual cases, do you think it's appropriate for people to give money to ad-hoc protest movements?
Or, to put it another way, do you think it's appropriate for ad-hoc protest movements to be supplied with millions of dollars of funds?

Lets ask Trudeau:

https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/wor ... 581171.cms

https://theweek.com/talking-points/1010 ... e-only-one

https://www.hindustantimes.com/world-ne ... 98395.html

https://www.news18.com/news/opinion/for ... 61413.html


There is so much material. Its endless, the hypocrisy.

Boy Canada looks like a leader on the world stage, too.

[Aviatard]

And its worse than lowering the temperature - 7ECA — how about not raising it in the first place?

Do you think your posts on this subject have raised or lowered the temperature?

[photofly]

Taking a step back from individual cases, do you think it's appropriate for people to give money to ad-hoc protest movements?
Or, to put it another way, do you think it's appropriate for ad-hoc protest movements to be supplied with millions of dollars of funds?

I think we all know what has happened during this pandemic in Canada has made Canada a far more dangerous, authoritarian and darker place.

Martin Niemöller‘s words speaking now.

A bid you all a very fond adieu. There’s a knock at the door…

I don't think this is really related to the pandemic, except it provided "an issue". The Liberal party raised (according to Wikipedia) about CAD$5M for the 2009 election campaign. This protest raised two or three times that in three weeks, much of it from outside Canada, with zero oversight about who was donating or where the money was actually going to go.

You could see echoes of the obvious problem with that when GoFundMe froze the funds after distributing the first tranche, saying they needed to be sure the money wasn't going to be use for unlawful activities. Then, of course, a "freedom loving" organzation GiveSendGo steps in to flip the bird and say "send us the money, we're not subject to Canadian laws". So what happens? The Canadian government has to - has absolutely no choice but to - find another way to control the money.

Yes, JT is being thoroughly illiberal and authoritarian, but he has a multitude of willing dance partners on the other side who are pushing things that way. Those organizations don't have everyone's best interests at heart, either. The state has to win, just like the scorpion has to sting the frog. If you don't want to get stung, don't make the state sting you. If you don't want to have strict banking controls on little people, don't try to collect millions of dollars from them. If you don't want draconian police powers, don't occupy a Canadian city for three weeks or close the border. I don't know why this isn't obvious.

[rookiepilot]

And its worse than lowering the temperature - 7ECA — how about not raising it in the first place?

Do you think your posts on this subject have raised or lowered the temperature?

My multiple communications to my MP, have expressed a sincere exhortation to lower the temperature.

And I meant to 7ECA — “how about (Trudeau) not raising it in the first place”.

Yes, Aviatard, I’m pissed at the government for (partly) inciting this mess, and I’ve expressed it here.

Shoot me.

[Aviatard]

And its worse than lowering the temperature - 7ECA — how about not raising it in the first place?

Do you think your posts on this subject have raised or lowered the temperature?

My multiple communications to my MP, have expressed a sincere exhortation to lower the temperature.

And I meant to 7ECA — “how about (Trudeau) not raising it in the first place”.

Yes but you didn’t answer my question. Do you think YOUR posts are raising or lowering the temperature?