#FakeSeniorityList

Discuss topics relating to Westjet.

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ALPApolicy
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#FakeSeniorityList

Post by ALPApolicy »

In 2003, The Federal Court of Appeal heard an appeal from ACPA following a CIRB ruling in the merger between AC + Canadian Airlines International. This case is not relevant as to the specific issue being adjudicated, but there are very relevant guides to how the WJ/Swoop/SunWing merger might proceed and the role of the CIRB should our situation proceed to arbitration. Here are some relevant educational snippets, as I see it.
On August 3, 2000 the CIRB declared Air Canada and Canadian to be a single employer under Canada Labour Code, section 35 for purposes of the pilot bargaining unit. That declaration resulted in commencement of the process of determining appropriate bargaining units and consequential issues under Code, section 18.1. The unions representing the two pilot groups had already signed a Protocol establishing a seniority list integration process. By that Protocol, an arbitrator was jointly selected by the parties and given all the powers to merge seniority lists that the CIRB has under the Code. The CIRB granted its approval of the seniority list integration process established by the Protocol. In his award, the arbitrator failed to articulate specifically the principles applicable to a bargaining unit consolidation triggered by a single employer declaration under the Code, but rather made a factual finding of economic disparity between the two carriers. This was the primary rationale supporting his award--as well as the necessity for protecting those Air Canada employees having negotiated "no lay-off" guarantees extending to June 2005. The award also took into account the disparity in hiring patterns: while Canadian hiring ended in 1990, from 1995 on Air Canada had experienced an unprecedented rate of growth in its complement of pilots. In the result, all the Canadian pilots had been hired pre-1990 while almost half of Air Canada's pilots had been taken on since 1995. This made a "date of hire" integration inequitable, so the arbitrator went for a ratio approach to seniority list integration. Furthermore, Air Canada pilots were accorded a substantial ratio premium on the rationale that Air Canada had rescued Canadian. In addition, the Air Canada pilots were given the benefit of restrictions, referred to as "fences", on the ordinary operation of the seniority list such as exclusive bidding rights on wide-body aircraft and layoff protection.
The CIRB did not err in concluding that sections 35 and 18.1 are to be read together and that their purpose is remedial in terms of protecting bargained rights and promoting sound labour relations. It further found that a "winner take all" approach that gives one group a premium while disadvantaging others is inconsistent with the intent of section 18.1. ... and took into account the necessity for integrating seniority in a manner consistent with both the Code regime for conducting a bargaining unit review and existing labour relations realities.
[4]Effective January 4, 2000, Air Canada and Canadian began carrying on associated businesses while awaiting formal court approval of their intended corporate merger. Several months later, on May 19, 2000, ACPA brought an application before the Board to have Air Canada and Canadian declared a single employer pursuant to section 35 of the Canada Labour Code...
[6]On August 3, 2000, the Board declared Air Canada and Canadian to be a single employer under section 35 of the Code for the purposes of the pilot bargaining unit. The result of that declaration was to commence the process of determining appropriate bargaining units and consequential issues pursuant to section 18.1 [as enacted by S.C. 1998, c. 26, s. 7] of the Code. Those sections read as follows:

18.1 (1) On application by the employer or a bargaining agent, the Board may review the structure of the bargaining units if it is satisfied that the bargaining units are no longer appropriate for collective bargaining.

(2) If the Board reviews, pursuant to subsection (1) or section 35 or 45, the structure of the bargaining units, the Board

(a) must allow the parties to come to an agreement, within a period that the Board considers reasonable, with respect to the determination of bargaining units and any questions arising from the review; and

(b) may make any orders it considers appropriate to implement any agreement.

(3) If the Board is of the opinion that the agreement reached by the parties would not lead to the creation of units appropriate for collective bargaining or if the parties do not agree on certain issues within the period that the Board considers reasonable, the Board determines any question that arises and makes any orders it considers appropriate in the circumstances.

(4) For the purposes of subsection (3), the Board may

(a) determine which trade union shall be the bargaining agent for the employees in each bargaining unit that results from the review;

(b) amend any certification order or description of a bargaining unit contained in any collective agreement;

(c) if more than one collective agreement applies to employees in a bargaining unit, decide which collective agreement is in force;

(d) amend, to the extent that the Board considers necessary, the provisions of collective agreements respecting expiry dates or seniority rights, or amend other such provisions;

(e) if the conditions of paragraphs 89(1)(a) to (d) have been met with respect to some of the employees in a bargaining unit, decide which terms and conditions of employment apply to those employees until the time that a collective agreement becomes applicable to the unit or the conditions of those paragraphs are met with respect to the unit; and

(f) authorize a party to a collective agreement to give notice to bargain collectively.

. . .

35. (1) Where, on application by an affected trade union or employer, associated or related federal works, undertakings or businesses are, in the opinion of the Board, operated by two or more employers having common control or direction, the Board may, by order, declare that for all purposes of this Part the employers and the federal works, undertakings and businesses operated by them that are specified in the order are, respectively, a single employer and a single federal work, undertaking or business. Before making such a declaration, the Board must give the affected employers and trade unions the opportunity to make representations.

(2) The Board may, in making a declaration under subsection (1), determine whether the employees affected constitute one or more units appropriate for collective bargaining.

[7]In contemplation of the Board issuing a single employer declaration, ACPA and ALPA signed the Protocol which established a seniority list integration process.
3. Should the CIRB issue a single employer declaration and find that the two mainline bargaining units at Air Canada and Canadian Airlines ought to be combined, and provided that ACPA and ALPA have not by that time agreed upon an integrated seniority list, ACPA and ALPA will jointly request that an integrated seniority list for Air Canada and CAIL pilots be determined by the following process under Section 18.1 of the Code:

(a) The integration of the two seniority lists shall be determined by a sole arbitrator jointly selected by the parties, namely Morton Mitchnick;
(b) The arbitrator shall integrate the seniority lists based on such principles as he finds applicable to a bargaining unit consolidation triggered by a single employer declaration under the Code;

. . .

(f) The scheduling of the arbitration, and the manner in which it will be conducted, will be determined by the arbitrator having regard to such submissions and further agreements (if any) the parties present to the arbitrator;
(g) The arbitrator shall have all the powers that the Board would itself have in merging seniority lists under the Code;
(h) Prior to the introduction of evidence in the arbitration, ACPA and ALPA will exchange detailed information on the pilot seniority lists at Air Canada and CAIL respectively, as those lists stood on January 3, 2000.
(i) The arbitrator shall not make an award that alters the relative seniority rankings among employees who are legitimately on the seniority list of either of the two pre-merger pilot groups;
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Last edited by ALPApolicy on Fri Mar 18, 2022 5:54 am, edited 2 times in total.
Captain Kirkk
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Re: Merger Example: AC + CAI

Post by Captain Kirkk »

You guys better shove those pilots to the bottom of the list where they belong. Especially those stupid entitled cadets, better yet put them at Encore.

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ALPApolicy
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Re: Merger Example: AC + CAI

Post by ALPApolicy »

Captain Kirkk wrote: Thu Mar 03, 2022 6:36 pm You guys better shove those pilots to the bottom of the list where they belong. Especially those stupid entitled cadets, better yet put them at Encore.

Kirk
That sounds like a recipe for lasting peace. Exactly what did SWG pilots do to earn your disrespect?
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Re: Merger Example: AC + CAI

Post by redbusdriver »

ALPApolicy wrote: Fri Mar 04, 2022 1:37 am
Captain Kirkk wrote: Thu Mar 03, 2022 6:36 pm You guys better shove those pilots to the bottom of the list where they belong. Especially those stupid entitled cadets, better yet put them at Encore.

Kirk
That sounds like a recipe for lasting peace. Exactly what did SWG pilots do to earn your disrespect?
it's the way it should be for any company being bought out, to botl.
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elite
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Re: Merger Example: AC + CAI

Post by elite »

What you say is not without merit, perhaps pay or position protection until seniority catches up? Buy-outs usually have a dominant side and one that may be failing soon as was the case with AC and CAIL and TS.
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ALPApolicy
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Re: Merger Example: AC + CAI

Post by ALPApolicy »

redbusdriver wrote: Fri Mar 04, 2022 6:40 am
ALPApolicy wrote: Fri Mar 04, 2022 1:37 am
Captain Kirkk wrote: Thu Mar 03, 2022 6:36 pm You guys better shove those pilots to the bottom of the list where they belong. Especially those stupid entitled cadets, better yet put them at Encore.

Kirk
That sounds like a recipe for lasting peace. Exactly what did SWG pilots do to earn your disrespect?
it's the way it should be for any company being bought out, to botl.
So, an Encore FO who was hired last week should be above an NG Captain with 15 years of seniority at SunWing? That's what you're saying?

That's how our PTA works. We are going to integrate the SWG list with the Swoop/WJ list (I assume) and you would put them all at the BOTL with a WJ DOH of let's say April 01, 2022 and then when the Encore FO flows over to WJ he is going to parachute past all of the SWG pilots based on his DOH (let's say March 1, 2022) with Encore.

Does that really sound appropriate to you?

EDIT: From the first post above:

"The CIRB did not err in concluding that sections 35 and 18.1 are to be read together and that their purpose is remedial in terms of protecting bargained rights and promoting sound labour relations. It further found that a "winner take all" approach that gives one group a premium while disadvantaging others is inconsistent with the intent of section 18.1."

If the CIRB believes a "winner take all" approach is inconsistent with the aim of the Canada Labour Code, I suggest BOTL for SWG pilots is not going to fly.

I see nothing wrong in principle with stapling cadet FO's to the bottom of the list, depending on how much experience they have in the right seat of the NG at time of the merger.
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ALPApolicy
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Re: Merger Example: AC + CAI

Post by ALPApolicy »

I will spend some time looking at case law from Canada and the USA in pilot mergers, but what does the form of the commercial transaction, "who bought who(m)" have to do with integrating pilot seniority lists? Is that a relevant factor in integrating labour groups? I thought the whole union thing was all about "us against the man"? Now you care what the man does and you're on his side against the labour side because our man bought his man?

If the SWG contribution was so minimal to this transaction, why is HERR HUNTER the head of the vacations group? I don't know for sure, but I think the SWG vacations product is heads and tails above WJ vacations. Am I wrong here?
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elite
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Re: Merger Example: AC + CAI

Post by elite »

ALPApolicy wrote: Fri Mar 04, 2022 9:17 am
redbusdriver wrote: Fri Mar 04, 2022 6:40 am it's the way it should be for any company being bought out, to botl.
So, an Encore FO who was hired last week should be above an NG Captain with 15 years of seniority at SunWing? That's what you're saying?
….
Does that really sound appropriate to you?
No it does not. Clearly SWG brings value.
Mind you, your PTA is a mess, that’s why no one does it!
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Re: Merger Example: AC + CAI

Post by ALPApolicy »

elite wrote: Fri Mar 04, 2022 9:42 am No it does not. Clearly SWG brings value.
Mind you, your PTA is a mess, that’s why no one does it!
Well, my opinions on that matter are quite public. With that said, what's done is done, and were this merger to go to mediation/arbitration, the goal, as with any arbitrated merger of seniority lists, is to protect to the greatest extent possible, the bargained rights of those on the respective lists. The Encore flow pilots already have bargained rights giving them super-seniority on the WJ list. They are entitled to expect protection of those rights just as much as I am entitled to expect protection of my rights.

Were this to be an ALPA to ALPA merger, it is clearly stated in ALPA Merger Policy that whatever the method used to arrive at an integrated seniority list, the pre-merger relative ordering of both pilot lists must not change.

As this is not the case, there is no blanket prohibition under CIRB or examples under case law that this must be the case, i.e. a straightening out of the WJ seniority list by DOH at WJ. I do think that, however, is off the table. The original post in this threas shows that the merger protocol agreed to by the AC and CAI teams included that the pre-merger ordering of the respective lists must be respected in the final list. I would see that as a minimum postion taken by our merger team (as much as the OTS pilots hired post 2014 would appreciate a re-ordering).
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Re: Merger Example: AC + CAI

Post by ALPApolicy »

And I think it is important to note that the first vote on the PTA did not pass. If that was primarily because mainline pilots wanted reciprocity in bumping rights at Encore (which was not present in the PTA #1) in the event of layoffs (this was pre-Covid), I do not know. I do now that the on the second vote, the MEC and the Company bundled the PTA issue with a stock option replacement cash payout (this was post Onex, IIRC) of $10,000. The vote passed.

I understand that the Encore pilots were lured to Encore by the WJ group on the basis of carrying their DOH over to mainline. It is too bad that instead of improving wages, we pilots agreed to sell out the bargained seniority rights of our post 2014 OTS pilots rather than respect the ALPA Constitution & Bylaws and the Board of Directors policy (in place since 1956) on seniority list construction by DOH. WestJet, being WestJet, has a strong streak of we know better in our DNA. Our initial successes in the Canadian marketplace made us arrogant. We still try to do things the WJ way, but as CEO Gregg Saretsky noted a few years back, sometimes the industry way of doing things is the better than the WJ way.
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Re: Merger Example: AC + CAI

Post by elite »

Improving recruitment at Encore would have been better achieved by better compensation, which pilots at their competitors (Jazz, Porter, etc.) would have appreciated too, or by bringing their YOS over, a cost to the company not pilots.

Speaking of WJ ways, if you want to be revolutionaries, merge your lists based on license numbers! :D
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Re: Merger Example: AC + CAI

Post by ALPApolicy »

Some commentary from one of the Air Canada merger cases in 2002, discussing ratio versus straight length of service, as well as financial state of purchased company.
35 The arbitrator considers the arbitration resulting from the acquisition of the Queen Charlotte Airlines by Pacific Western Airlines (PWA), Arbitrator Becker’s award of June 19, 1960, and notes that it was based on length of service or date of hire. The arbitration resulting from the purchase of Transair by PWA, by Arbitrator Gallagher and panel, is considered next. That panel rejected a length of service method, noted numerous factors which could properly be considered in such instances, and decided to integrate the seniority list using a method evaluating the approximate ratio of jobs contributed by each airline. Arbitrator Gallagher rejected the integration of the pilot seniority lists on a straight length of service basis since, in his view, in the circumstances, it would not be fair and equitable for PWA pilots. Arbitrator Gallagher noted that the purchased airline, Transair, was effectively bankrupt and that PWA was a considerably larger airline with a pilot ratio of 3 to 1. Arbitrator Mitchnick, in considering this decision, notes that the actual number of pilots in the Transair case was 248 to 90 (2.75:1), and that the broad 3:1 ratio for seniority integration adopted by the arbitration board represented some relative advantage for the PWA pilots who were the purchasing company. The factors which Gallagher felt could be considered included the respective financial condition and viability of each of the airlines, the routes and jobs contributed by each of the airlines, the growth potential of each of the airlines, the growth potential of the individual pilot, job security and earnings protection, the respective collective agreements of the parties, preferential bidding and the benefits of the acquisition of Transair by PWA.



36 Arbitrator Gallagher noted the difficult financial state of the acquired airline and the difficulty of speculating with respect to the potential job security of the pilots involved. In the end, the factor that appeared to be most persuasive to Arbitrator Gallagher appeared to be the approximate ratio of jobs contributed by each airline.
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Re: Merger Example: AC + CAI

Post by ALPApolicy »

elite wrote: Fri Mar 04, 2022 10:28 am Improving recruitment at Encore would have been better achieved by better compensation, which pilots at their competitors (Jazz, Porter, etc.) would have appreciated too, or by bringing their YOS over, a cost to the company not pilots.

Speaking of WJ ways, if you want to be revolutionaries, merge your lists based on license numbers! :D
DING DING DING DING!!! We have a winner, folks!

Agreed. There was recently (pre-SWG purchase) some discussion internally among some pilots (including LEC/MEC executives) on going for Common Employer between Swoop/WJ and Encore. This would eliminate the WJ super-seniority list issue as we already have a WJ Group wide seniority list based on DOH. I do not believe that is a possiblity (common employer), for various reasons (Twice since 2015 ALPA approached the Board seeking a separate bargaining unit for WJ pilots and a separate one for Encore pilots. What changed?). When I mentioned why not just give full YOS for pay purposes to Encore flow pilots (as we already have the PTA influenced seniority list recognizing their Encore DOH), I was told that the company would never go for that! My response was well why TF are we bothering discussing Common Employer? It's obvious the company doesn't want it and the CIRB isn't going to grant it in any case (See Air Canada and the Connectors, Berry v. Pulley on Canlii.org).

Some feel that having Encore in the same bargaining unit as Swoop and WestJet would give the pilots more bargaining power. While this is true, especially in the event of a strike, increased bargaining power is expressly ruled out as a reason to grant Common Employer (according to the CIRB).

ALPA, if it wants, has a third opportunity to seek common employer with Encore when the common employer process is started with SWG/Swoop/WJ. If ALPA does not include Encore in that request, then I suggest that all talk of Common Employer with Encore be banned until there is a fundamental change in the nature of the WJ group business organization and operation of WJ/Swoop/Encore that justifies a reconsideration of bargaining unit structures among the pilots in the WJ group of companies.
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Last edited by ALPApolicy on Fri Mar 04, 2022 11:27 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Merger Example: AC + CAI

Post by cloak »

My understanding is that currently even Swoop and WJ are not common employers, rather common representation which was ceded to ALPA voluntarily to prevent a strike. It would be interesting if that changes in light of the acquisition of SWG.

I agree that giving Encore YOS instead of super seniority would have been better, but it is unlikely it will happen, and for the same reason it is unlikely that common employer status happens either since it would mean YOS too.

The PTA will become more problematic as time goes on and it might be a good idea to terminate it, especially given the diverging level of experience for recruitments. It would make recruitment easier for Mainline/Swoop and more challenging for Encore. That would require improving compensation, perhaps YOS upon flow?!, and round and round we go!
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Re: Merger Example: AC + CAI

Post by ALPApolicy »

cloak wrote: Fri Mar 04, 2022 11:21 am My understanding is that currently even Swoop and WJ are not common employers, rather common representation which was ceded to ALPA voluntarily to prevent a strike.
I think they voluntarily agreed to Common Employer, which was agreed to by the CIRB. I think. I am not sure of the difference between this and seeking and being granted the designation by the CIRB. Here is a news article talking about the Common Employer with Swoop and WJ:

https://toronto.ctvnews.ca/westjet-pilo ... -1.3969746
The parties also agreed that WestJet and Swoop are common employers.
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Re: Merger Example: AC + CAI

Post by ALPApolicy »

Here is the CIRB decision.
Order No.: 11359-U

Supercedes: 11139-U

IN THE MATTER OF THE

Canada Labour Code

- and -

Air Line Pilots Association, International,

applicant,

- and -

WestJet, an Alberta Partnership,

Calgary, Alberta,

employer,

- and -

Swoop Inc.,

Calgary, Alberta,

employer.

WHEREAS the Canada Industrial Relations Board (the Board), by order no. 11139-U, dated May 12, 2017, certified the Air Line Pilots Association, International (ALPA or the union), as bargaining agent for a unit of employees of WestJet, an Alberta Partnership (WestJet);

AND WHEREAS Swoop Inc. (Swoop) agreed to voluntarily recognize ALPA as the bargaining agent for a unit of pilots working at Swoop;

AND WHEREAS the Board has received an application from the applicant, pursuant to sections 18 and 35 of the Canada Labour Code (Part I–Industrial Relations) (the Code), seeking a declaration that WestJet and Swoop (the employers) are a single employer and a single federal work, undertaking or business for all purposes of the Code and seeking to modify the bargaining unit description;

AND WHEREAS the employers agree that WestJet and Swoop are associated enterprises under federal jurisdiction, operated by two employers having common control and direction;

AND WHEREAS the union and the employers agree and the Board finds that there is a valid labour relations purpose in this case that justifies granting a single employer declaration;

AND WHEREAS the Board has determined the unit described hereunder to be appropriate for collective bargaining.

NOW, THEREFORE, the Canada Industrial Relations Board declares that WestJet and Swoop are a single employer, and it is ordered that the applicant union be, and it is hereby certified to be, the bargaining agent for a unit comprising:

all pilots employed by WestJet, an Alberta Partnership and Swoop Inc., excluding managers, S3, standards crew management, chief pilot, directors, supervisors and persons above the rank of supervisor.

ISSUED at Ottawa, this 8th day of March, 2019, by the Canada Industrial Relations Board.

Ginette Brazeau

Chairperson
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Re: Merger Example: AC + CAI

Post by altiplano »

If WJ/SWG are designated common employer, and they will be, as 737:737 with a comparable pay/position structure, I think you will see a fairly equal ratio integration with the start point on the WJ list below your total 787 pilot numbers. I would expect a fence applied on 787 positions until the completion of your confirmed 787 deliveries.

I would also expect an end to your Encore flow deal as it stands. Anyone on the mainline property at the time of acquisition will maintain there place in the SLI, but those not on the main list aren't comparators for the ratio ie.737 pilot job, and it won't be reasonable to parachute them ahead of SW ratioed pilots afterwards.

See the Canadian Regional YOS translation in the AC/CAIL merger. Roughly, CR guys not even on the line yet, but hired at CAIL kept DOH for their seniority in the SLI with AC. But CR guys promised eventual DOH but not quite there? Off to merge with the other regionals and what of course became Jazz, and the rest is history. Fact is they didn't work at mainline, they weren't common employer, they didn't fit into the ratio of like:like of the mainline pilots.

If Encore isn't common employer and SW is... like it or not, regardless of ownership they don't work at WJ, they're not in that list, so there's the losers in this deal... If I'm an Encore pilot I'd hurry up on getting onto the main list...
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Re: Merger Example: AC + CAI

Post by cloak »

ALPApolicy wrote: Fri Mar 04, 2022 11:30 am
cloak wrote: Fri Mar 04, 2022 11:21 am My understanding is that currently even Swoop and WJ are not common employers, rather common representation which was ceded to ALPA voluntarily to prevent a strike.
I think they voluntarily agreed to Common Employer, which was agreed to by the CIRB. I think. I am not sure of the difference between this and seeking and being granted the designation by the CIRB.
Good to know. The initial thinking must have changed. Thanks for sharing.
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Re: Merger Example: AC + CAI

Post by ALPApolicy »

altiplano wrote: Fri Mar 04, 2022 12:04 pm...I would also expect an end to your Encore flow deal as it stands. Anyone on the mainline property at the time of acquisition will maintain there place in the SLI, but those not on the main list aren't comparators for the ratio ie.737 pilot job, and it won't be reasonable to parachute them ahead of SW ratioed pilots afterwards...
Well, the PTA is unconventional and at times (like this) perhaps not practical, but is there something specifically illegal or unworkable in law with parachuting Encore flow pilots onto the ISL (per the current LOU) after the merger completes? Let's assume that ALPA and the Company want to maintain the PTA, what stops them from doing so? Is there something in tort or common law that precludes the PTA from continuing in force? Can a mediator/arbitrator rule the PTA no longer in force and no longer applicable in any way? Is there anything in law that precludes ALPA and the Company from honoring the terms of the LOU that gives life to the PTA? One of these terms is that the current Encore pilots on the Company wide seniority list as of date of dissolution of the PTA will maintain their right to a position on the WJ mainline seniority list based on their DOH.
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Re: Merger Example: AC + CAI

Post by ALPApolicy »

In the CAI/AC merger, a group of Canadian Regional Airlines (CRA) pilots were selected to flow to AC at the time of the merger but held back for operational reasons and did not flow until after the Common Employer designation by the CIRB. As a result, they ended up at the BOTL and were now below pilots who they had been senior to at CRA. They went to the CIRB to seek redress but ultimately the CIRB did not have to hear the case for reasons you can read about here.

12 The applicants in this file are a group of 40 Air Canada pilots, formerly CRA pilots, who allege that the Keller award disregards their rights as enshrined in the CRA collective agreement. They call themselves the “flow-through” pilots who were transferred from CRA to Air Canada after October 17, 2000.



13 The essence of their case is that they were initially selected for transfer to Air Canada from CRA in 1999, at the time of the merger, but before the Board’s ruling on October 17, 2000, that the Air Canada and former CAIL pilots constituted a single bargaining unit. Prior to the Board’s ruling, Air Canada negotiated with ALPA the terms of flow-through rights for CRA pilots as a letter of understanding (LOU) to the collective agreement in view of protecting their seniority rights. This agreement was negotiated independently from the CAIL or the Air Canada pilots collective agreements. [To put this into context, Air Canada continued after the merger to negotiate separate collective agreements with all existing trade unions up until the Board ruled on the composition of the various bargaining units.]



14 The terms of the LOU are similar, if not identical, to a practice that existed at CAIL before the merger. Pilots who had been selected for employment but held back at CRA for operational reasons were placed on the CAIL seniority list as if they were working at CAIL. In other words, they maintained their position on the seniority list relative to other CRA pilots who had not been held back as well as other “off the street” CAIL pilots hired after them (see file no. 23919-C below).



15 The applicants state that they had all been selected for flow-through to Air Canada in 1999, but were held back for operational reasons until after October 17, 2000. They claim that they have a negotiated right to be placed on the CAIL seniority list under the terms of this LOU in order to maintain their relative seniority ranking during the merger.



16 The applicants argue that the Keller award does not take into account this relative seniority, as they have not been placed ahead of less senior CRA pilots who were not held back or CAIL pilots who were hired thereafter. The applicants further argue that the award violates the Board’s ruling in Air Canada (183), supra, that pre-merger contractual rights were to be honoured in any decision concerning seniority integration. The applicants add that the Keller award constitutes a breach of natural justice because it does not address their issue and no reasons are given for this lack of consideration.
One distinguishing factor is that the CRA pilots did not have a PTA. ALPA and WJ and Encore have the PTA in place and so far I do not see why it would not be in force post merger if ALPA and WJ and Encore want to maintain it.
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Endtailing in Airline Mergers

Post by ALPApolicy »

In one of the many decisions in the AC/CAI merger, commentary was made on the purchase of Wardair by CAI and the concept of endtailing in seniority list integration was commented upon. See the full decision here.
[40] The next case considered is the arbitration respecting the 1989 purchase by Canadian of Wardair. In an award dated February 8, 1990, Arbitrator Munroe adopted a method based on “date of hire”, but he made lengthy observations on the principles applicable to the integration of seniority lists in cases of airline mergers.

[41] Arbitrator Mitchnick considers Arbitrator Munroe’s observations on the principles applicable in seniority determination matters. Arbitrator Munroe notes:

It was not too long ago that the common expectation within the industrial relations community was that the seniority list of the “acquired bargaining unit” would simply be “end tailed” - i.e., tacked onto the tail end of the seniority list of the “acquiring bargaining unit”. But experience soon revealed that automatic end tailing was neither responsive to the complexities of the corporate world, nor equitable.

The natural alternative to the end tailing of one of the seniority lists was the “dovetailing” of the two seniority lists based on date of hire. On its face, that was seen to be more equitable in most circumstances. In effect, it insulated the distinctly important question of worker seniority from the form of commercial transaction which had led to the operational necessity of an integrated seniority list.

...

But even a dovetailing of the two seniority lists according to date of hire has sometimes been viewed as too blunt an instrument of integration. Especially in the North American airline industry, there is no shortage of awards in which arbitrators have attempted to reconcile the equities either by directing a seniority ratio, or by attaching conditions or fences to a date-based list.

...

First of all, if there is one thing to be gleaned from the general body of awards it is that the solution considered appropriate in one case may not be appropriate in another. A seniority integration arbitration is more in the nature of an “interest” dispute than a “rights” dispute. It requires, among other things, a balancing of interests and an assessment of equities. Interests and equities must be judged case by case.

I do not say that some other approach will never be appropriate. But as a complementary point of principle, a party who proposes that an integrated seniority list be constructed on some basis other than date of hire must bear the onus of showing that the situation demands it. And as a logical extension, a party who proposes that conditions or fences be attached to a date of hire list, such that the normal application 1of such list will be affected for some period of time, must clearly demonstrate either the transitional necessity of the suggested fencing, or, at the least, that easing the transition to the integrated seniority list for one group will not produce unfairness to the other group.

...

... I intimated above that in a seniority integration arbitration, the form of the commercial transaction which led to the necessity of integration should not automatically be dispositive of worker seniority rights. But at the same time, it cannot be the function of a seniority integration arbitrator to construct the integrated list with the objective of insulating a group of employees from what likely would have befallen them had the subject acquisition or merger not occurred. The reason why that is so lies in the inherent conflicts or tensions which attend virtually any seniority integration proceeding. In all likelihood, an integrated seniority list which is constructed with the above-described objective at the forefront will be at the expense of the employees of the more successful enterprise.

(pages 22-24)
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Greasy Greaser
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Re: Merger Example: AC + CAI

Post by Greasy Greaser »

Calling it now.

DOH merge with SWG and WJ (includes Swoop), no bumps or rebid. Just slot in seniority and bid new positions by it. Encore off the list sadly but will get a good portion of capital to retain people like Jazz.
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ALPApolicy
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Re: Merger Example: AC + CAI

Post by ALPApolicy »

Greasy Greaser wrote: Fri Mar 04, 2022 2:46 pm Calling it now.

DOH merge with SWG and WJ (includes Swoop), no bumps or rebid. Just slot in seniority and bid new positions by it. Encore off the list sadly but will get a good portion of capital to retain people like Jazz.
The PTA (Pilot Transfer Agreement): does it remain in effect post merger? As it stands now, all Encore pilots have grandfathered rights to the WJ seniority list by their Encore DOH. Are those rights enforceable by Encore pilots? Do you accept them parachuting onto the merged seniority list commensurate with their Encore DOH?

Also, do you accept the WJ mainline pilots who flowed from Encore using their Encore DOH, as they do now? For example, they might only have been at WJ mainline for 3 years, but their DOH shows as 7 years on the list and they occupy spots right next to OTS pilots who have actually been at WJ mainline for 7 years.
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boeingboy
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Re: Merger Example: AC + CAI

Post by boeingboy »

I think we are all putting the cart before the horse. We all need to just sit back and see what happens in the next 6 - 10 months.
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Greasy Greaser
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Re: Merger Example: AC + CAI

Post by Greasy Greaser »

ALPApolicy wrote: Fri Mar 04, 2022 3:15 pm
Greasy Greaser wrote: Fri Mar 04, 2022 2:46 pm Calling it now.

DOH merge with SWG and WJ (includes Swoop), no bumps or rebid. Just slot in seniority and bid new positions by it. Encore off the list sadly but will get a good portion of capital to retain people like Jazz.
The PTA (Pilot Transfer Agreement): does it remain in effect post merger? As it stands now, all Encore pilots have grandfathered rights to the WJ seniority list by their Encore DOH. Are those rights enforceable by Encore pilots? Do you accept them parachuting onto the merged seniority list commensurate with their Encore DOH?

Also, do you accept the WJ mainline pilots who flowed from Encore using their Encore DOH, as they do now? For example, they might only have been at WJ mainline for 3 years, but their DOH shows as 7 years on the list and they occupy spots right next to OTS pilots who have actually been at WJ mainline for 7 years.
This whole debacle is a tough one, I think we all know that. There are so many different ways to skin a cat and whatever happens, there will always be an unhappy group.

The PTA does grandfather but I am under the impression it only grandfathers when it coincides with our WJ collective agreement we have in place now. (When we get a new CA the PTA grandfather is almost useless if we want it out, correct me if I am wrong)

When WJ didn't have a full reserve block schedule, I was probably one of the few more than okay with Encore coming into WJ with their DOH, but like everything, things change. The way it is now, if you're a 2016-17ish DOH WestJet pilot or junior, you're screwed imo; I don't know how you'll get out of reserve blocks for the foreseeable future and now with SWG pilots potentially coming in, there will be no end in sight for those who are junior/new hires.

As for the second question about those who flowed...Yes I accept it, a major part of any seniority based airline as you know is just being on property, if said pilot flows from Encore with 5 years DOH on December 31st and we cut the list January 1st (all hypothetical), absolutely that person should keep their DOH even though they've been here a day technically.
Having those not on property/under our CBA (mainline AND Swoop) jumping ahead is the problem imo. I have nothing against Encore, I don't sit on reserve so it doesn't affect me too much but it sucks seeing other guys use WJ as a stepping stone because 4 years flat pay does sound a lot better than 8 years reserve in my mind.

If we keep the current list, which I'm fine with as long as we realize that reserve block timeline should not be based solely on DOH, but on when you're on property, ie. 8 year Encore captain flows and just starts the reserve block timer while 4 year WJ FO can finally get off it.
Yes it's not a real fix imo and only kicks the rock down the road but it like someone before said, we're innovators on making problems out of nothing.

In the end, we will see if we follow the ALPA ways (lol) of merging DOH and not having 4 separate OC's with one list. Either merge everything or start trimming. But what do I know. Smarter people than I can deal with this.
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