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altiplano
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Re: Merger Example: AC + CAI

Post by altiplano »

Greasy Greaser wrote: Fri Mar 04, 2022 4:22 pm This whole debacle is a tough one, I think we all know that. There are so many different ways to skin a cat and whatever happens, there will always be an unhappy group.
100%

That is the way.

Greasy Greaser wrote: Fri Mar 04, 2022 4:22 pm In the end, we will see if we follow the ALPA ways (lol) of merging DOH and not having 4 separate OC's with one list. Either merge everything or start trimming. But what do I know. Smarter people than I can deal with this.
I'm not sure where that comes from, ie. DOH = "ALPA way"

In fact the ALPA merger ideal dictates MECs have flexibility in determining factors to bring an equitable and fair agreement.

"The new policy states that the factors that must be considered in constructing a fair and equitable integrated seniority list, in no particular order and with no particular weight, now include but are not limited to career expectations, longevity, and status and category.

The new merger policy mandates that merger representatives, mediators, and arbitrators must consider these factors when constructing a seniority list; however, they are also free to consider other factors as they deem appropriate."


https://www.google.com/url?q=http://www ... jMpjXAh9Km

Status, category are comparable. Career expectation is met with fences I suggested on the 787. Longevity variance? Minimal. Then there's Encore... I think they're left out. I'd be shocked if an arbitrator puts wannabe 737 pilots ahead of current 737 pilots. I know if I'm the Sunwing guy I'm pushing to get that "status" recognized superlative.

Bottom line is SLIs are complex. Good luck to all, but I threw my .02 i. on where it would go, no doubt an arbitrator will decide.
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Re: Merger Example: AC + CAI

Post by elite »

altiplano wrote: Fri Mar 04, 2022 9:47 pm
"The new policy states that the factors that must be considered in constructing a fair and equitable integrated seniority list, in no particular order and with no particular weight, now include but are not limited to career expectations, longevity, and status and category.

Status, category are comparable. Career expectation is met with fences I suggested on the 787. Longevity variance? Minimal. Then there's Encore... I think they're left out. I'd be shocked if an arbitrator puts wannabe 737 pilots ahead of current 737 pilots. I know if I'm the Sunwing guy I'm pushing to get that "status" recognized superlative...
In this context, what exactly are the definitions of “status” and “category” and why do think it’s imperative to get status recognized?
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Re: Merger Example: AC + CAI

Post by altiplano »

Status = Captain, FO
Category = WB, NB, aircraft type, etc.
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Re: Merger Example: AC + CAI

Post by elite »

Ok the “standard” definitions then. Thanks for sharing that link for the new merger policy.

In essence this has always been done, perhaps not as well laid out. And in this case, separating the 787, the two companies are very similar and not as much disparity as there was between AC and CAI where one was a flourishing airline with relatively newer group and one that had survived 4 or 5 bankruptcies and had not hired anyone for years. Longevity was very different and career expectation was very different.

Even the C3/Royal merger was more complicated in those aspects. In this case and with this guidance, it should make the transition smoother. And I agree that Encore will likely be out possibly with an alternate compensation.

Category and career expectations are a little different because of 787. And experience of the two groups are a little different. So I can see fences in those areas in the form of next X number of upgrades come from WestJet (due to higher years on airplane) and 787 fenced off for 2 to 3 years. And otherwise DOH with a combination of 5 to 1 ratio. Standard no bump, no flush and as fences expire people can bid into open positions based on seniority.
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Re: Merger Example: AC + CAI

Post by sarg »

altiplano wrote: Fri Mar 04, 2022 9:47 pm
Greasy Greaser wrote: Fri Mar 04, 2022 4:22 pm This whole debacle is a tough one, I think we all know that. There are so many different ways to skin a cat and whatever happens, there will always be an unhappy group.
100%

That is the way.

Greasy Greaser wrote: Fri Mar 04, 2022 4:22 pm In the end, we will see if we follow the ALPA ways (lol) of merging DOH and not having 4 separate OC's with one list. Either merge everything or start trimming. But what do I know. Smarter people than I can deal with this.
I'm not sure where that comes from, ie. DOH = "ALPA way"

In fact the ALPA merger ideal dictates MECs have flexibility in determining factors to bring an equitable and fair agreement.

"The new policy states that the factors that must be considered in constructing a fair and equitable integrated seniority list, in no particular order and with no particular weight, now include but are not limited to career expectations, longevity, and status and category.

The new merger policy mandates that merger representatives, mediators, and arbitrators must consider these factors when constructing a seniority list; however, they are also free to consider other factors as they deem appropriate."


https://www.google.com/url?q=http://www ... jMpjXAh9Km

Status, category are comparable. Career expectation is met with fences I suggested on the 787. Longevity variance? Minimal. Then there's Encore... I think they're left out. I'd be shocked if an arbitrator puts wannabe 737 pilots ahead of current 737 pilots. I know if I'm the Sunwing guy I'm pushing to get that "status" recognized superlative.

Bottom line is SLIs are complex. Good luck to all, but I threw my .02 i. on where it would go, no doubt an arbitrator will decide.
Complicated for sure.

I would expect straight DOH, with fences but the fences will be to protect the Sunwing pilots in their Positions.

Until the announcement no Sunwing pilots was expecting to fly a WB.

As of the June PSB the most junior WestJet mainline Captain DOH 9-Jan-2012, Swoop Captain 6-Jan-2020. The most junior Sunwing Captain 01-Oct-2018. It could easily be argued that DOH would not effect the career expectations of a Sunwing pilot, while not too adversely effecting any WestJet pilot. The fences would be placed around the Sunwing pilots the protect them in their Position until they bid out or can hold the Position based on DOH.

Encore pilots will most likely loose their super seniority when they flow, the messier question is what will happen to those that are already in the WestJet bargaining unit.

Position=Base and Seat
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Re: Merger Example: AC + CAI

Post by ALPApolicy »

sarg wrote: Tue Mar 08, 2022 7:25 pmI would expect straight DOH, with fences but the fences will be to protect the Sunwing pilots in their Positions.
Hi sarg, What seniority list are you using to merge with the SunWing pilots seniority list?
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Re: Merger Example: AC + CAI

Post by sarg »

ALPApolicy wrote: Tue Mar 08, 2022 7:43 pm
sarg wrote: Tue Mar 08, 2022 7:25 pmI would expect straight DOH, with fences but the fences will be to protect the Sunwing pilots in their Positions.
Hi sarg, What seniority list are you using to merge with the SunWing pilots seniority list?
January WestJet plus June PSB and January 22 Sunwing
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Re: Merger Example: AC + CAI

Post by ALPApolicy »

sarg wrote: Wed Mar 09, 2022 8:25 am
ALPApolicy wrote: Tue Mar 08, 2022 7:43 pm
sarg wrote: Tue Mar 08, 2022 7:25 pmI would expect straight DOH, with fences but the fences will be to protect the Sunwing pilots in their Positions.
Hi sarg, What seniority list are you using to merge with the SunWing pilots seniority list?
January WestJet plus June PSB and January 22 Sunwing
I wasn't clear enough. Are you talking about a document called "Seniority List" on our iPads, in the ALPA folder?
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Re: Merger Example: Air Canada/Canadian Airlines Intl

Post by sarg »

Yes, and the just released June PSB results
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Re: Merger Example: Air Canada/Canadian Airlines Intl

Post by ALPApolicy »

Ok, understood. The problem with that document is (at least) two fold.

1) It contains all of the members of two bargaining units on it: the bargaining unit with WSW/WJA members and the bargaining unit with WEN members. I am looking for the seniority list for the WSW/WJA bargaining unit that will be sent to the SWG Merger Committee for use in the subsequent merger negotiations, should they come to pass.

2) The WSW/WJA CBA currently in force states that there is a document called the Postion Seniority List (PSL) that contains the members of the WSW/WJA bargaining unit. I do not see anywhere in the PTA where it extinguishes the PSL. Maybe you do. Also, the PTA does not specify a method for creating a seniority list for just the WSW/WJA bargaining unit. It is possible that I am misreading the PTA. Can you find something in the PTA that references the PSL?

Here are the CBA provisions that enable creation and maintenance of the PSL:
COLLECTIVE AGREEMENT
between and the AIRLINE PILOTS in the service of WESTJET, AN ALBERTA PARTNERSHIP and SWOOP, INC.
as represented by the AIR LINE PILOTS ASSOCIATION, INTERNATIONAL
Effective 01 JAN 2019 to 31 DEC 2022

DEFINITIONS AND ABBREVIATIONS

1. DEFINITIONS

Length of Service

The period of employment commencing from the date of hire at the Company as a pilot and adjusted as necessary, pursuant to the terms of this Agreement.

Pilot

A pilot employed by the Company who is a member of the bargaining unit.

Pilot Seniority List (PSL/WPSL)

The PSL is the list of pilots who are employed by WestJet, and Swoop.
...
3 – SENIORITY

3-1. PILOT SENIORITY LIST

3-1.01. The Company shall maintain an updated Pilot Seniority List (PSL). The PSL shall be published quarterly (Jan 1, Apr 1, Jul 1, Oct 1) with a copy to the Association. The PSL shall be posted electronically on the Company intranet and shall remain there until replaced by an updated PSL. The PSL will also be made available on the EFB.

3-1.02. Only Pilots whose names appear on the PSL are authorized to operate aircraft used by the Company in its flight operations, except as otherwise provided for in this Agreement.

3-1.03. The PSL shall show the Seniority of each Pilot by name, Rank, Permanent Base, Equipment, Status, and date of hire (DOH) of all Pilots employed by the Company.

3-1.04. Except as otherwise provided in this Agreement, Seniority shall begin to accrue from a Pilot’s DOH as a Pilot with the Company and shall continue to accrue during such period of service.
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Last edited by ALPApolicy on Thu Mar 10, 2022 12:35 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Merger Example: Air Canada/Canadian Airlines Intl

Post by ALPApolicy »

Here are the relevant sections of the PTA governing its version of seniority. I am not sure if these sections replace the PSL, or are in addition to the PSL. I note the section 2 below, SENIORITY, is a different number in the CBA, where section 3 is called SENIORITY in the PTA. This may or may not be germane to the discussion. I am not a lawyer.

This is the definition of the Position Seniority List (PSL) in the CBA:

The PSL is the list of pilots who are employed by WestJet, and Swoop.

This is the definition of the "Seniority List" in the PTA:

A combined seniority list, known as the “Seniority List,” shall be created through the process provided for in Section 10, below. Once created, the Seniority List shall be used for transfers between Swoop and WestJet, and between Encore and Swoop or WestJet.

In the event of a common employer declaration between SWG and WSW and WJA, which I believe will not include WEN, which seniority list are we giving to the SWG pilot group? The PSL or the "Seniority List"?

Does the PSL still exist?

LETTER OF AGREEMENT BETWEEN THE AIRLINE PILOTS IN THE SERVICE OF WESTJET, AN ALBERTA PARTNERSHIP, AND SWOOP,
INC, AND THE AIRLINE PILOTS IN THE SERVICE OF WESTJET ENCORE AS REPRESENTED BY THE AIR LINE PILOTS ASSOCIATION, INTERNATIONAL (THE “ASSOCIATION” OR “ALPA”) AND WESTJET, AN ALBERTA PARTNERSHIP (WESTJET), SWOOP, INC (SWOOP), AND WESTJET ENCORE (ENCORE)

(HEREINAFTER COLLECTIVELY REFERRED TO AS THE “PARTIES”)

TRANSFERS BETWEEN WESTJET AND SWOOP AND ENCORE

WHEREAS, in 2013, before the certification of ALPA as the exclusive bargaining agent, WestJet leadership in collaboration with the WestJet Pilot’s Association (“WJPA”) developed the Pilot Career Progression Policy outlining the process for WestJet Encore pilots to transition to WestJet.

WHEREAS, WestJet leadership and WJPA, recognized the importance of interest-focused employee relations, and adopted a “Single Pilot Department List” for WestJet and WestJet Encore pilots WHEREAS, the Parties hold a shared interest in continuing the transfer of pilots between WestJet, Swoop, and Encore.

WHEREAS, except as provided for in this Letter of Agreement (“LOA”), nothing herein is intended to modify, supersede or otherwise amend the contractual provisions negotiated in the WestJet Collective Agreement, the Encore Collective Agreement, or the Swoop letter of understanding.
NOW THERFORE, the Parties agree to the following:

1. That the above recitals are true and shall form part of this LOA.

2. SENIORITY

2.01 A combined seniority list, known as the “Seniority List,” shall be created through the process provided for in Section 10, below. Once created, the Seniority List shall be used for transfers between Swoop and WestJet, and between Encore and Swoop or WestJet.

2.02 Once this LOA becomes effective, any Pilot who is hired at WestJet, Swoop, or Encore shall be assigned a seniority number based on date of hire at the respective airline.
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Re: Merger Example: Air Canada/Canadian Airlines Intl

Post by ALPApolicy »

Section 3.04 of the PTA...

3.04. Upon commencement of active employment at WestJet or Swoop, an Encore Pilot transferred in accordance with Section 3.03 of this LOA shall have his or her length of service from date of hire at Encore transferred to WestJet or Swoop and used for seniority for bidding purposes, vacation allotment and bidding points.
...seems to replace Section 3-4. APPLICATION OF SENIORITY of the CBA
3-4.01. Unless otherwise specified in this Agreement,... a Pilot’s Seniority shall govern the rights between Pilots such as the awarding of Positions, base transfer, a change in aircraft Type, involuntary transfer, layoff, bumping, and recall, etc.
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Re: Merger Example: Air Canada/Canadian Airlines Intl

Post by ALPApolicy »

In one of the Berry v. Pulley cases following the unsuccessful common employer attempt between Air Canada and the connector airlines, an appeal led to the following commentary in the case here.
The March Picher Award and events triggered by it

[21] On March 28, 1995, Mr. Picher released his first award (the “March Picher Award”). He contemplated two lists: one for seniority and a second for bidding on home base, flying equipment and status as captain or first officer (the latter two of which influenced a pilot’s income). He directed that an integrated seniority list be based on date of hire but left the dates of hire to be determined by the MECs.
[27] Several meetings were held between late April and early August 1995 to construct seniority and bidding lists, as required by the March Picher Award. The Air Canada MEC did not agree to the proposed lists.
Picher "contemplated two lists: one for seniority and a second for bidding..."

Is that what we have in the WSW/WJA bargaining unit? Two lists?
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Re: Merger Example: Air Canada/Canadian Airlines Intl

Post by ALPApolicy »

More commentary regarding Picher's two seniority lists scenario from the Berry v. Pulley case here.
March 28, 1995 Picher Award

[225] On March 28, 1995, Mr. Picher released his Award (the "Award") and gave detailed reasons for his decision. He noted that Air Canada was the one controlling employer and in the interests of CALPA and all its members, a single seniority list was essential. It had to be fair though. His decision contemplated two lists: one for seniority and another for bidding on base, equipment and status. He concluded that at the junior end of the Air Canada operation, a meaningful segment of work was comparable to that of the Connectors, as were wages. LOU 17 was evidence of that overlap. He directed that the integrated seniority list be based on date of hire; however P.J. O'Hara, an Air Canada pilot, would act as a "top blocker" for bidding on base, equipment, and status. This meant that Connector pilots senior to P.J. O'Hara would be treated as immediately junior to him for bidding purposes. For integration purposes, the dates of hire for the pilots in all groups were to be the dates settled between the MECs during the merger process or as may be determined by the arbitrator.

[226] In his reasons, Mr. Picher indicated that roughly 85% of all Air Canada pilots would be unaffected by the merger of seniority lists for the purposes of bidding on base, equipment and status. Only the most junior 249 pilots (or 15%), 243 of whom were presently furloughed, would be affected for bidding on base, equipment and status, and even those pilots would have a significant number of Connector pilots junior to them on the bidding list. Moreover, these pilots would be protected by the no-flush/no-bump provision on their return from furlough. This meant that the most junior Air Canada pilots could not be displaced from their current equipment, base or status by Connector pilots who were above them on the bidding list. Only 60 Connector pilots were senior to P. J. O'Hara but as a result of the top blocker provision in the Award, they could not bid against Air Canada pilots above O'Hara for base, status or equipment. All Connector pilots would bid below P.J. O'Hara. This was the so-called "fence."

[227] The Award did not contain a merged list with seniority dates, but invited the parties to try and fashion two lists. One list was to be used only for seniority and the other for "equipment bidding". The arbitrator reserved jurisdiction to resolve any dispute that might arise.

Air Canada acts, quite properly, in its own best interests and its continued success is much to be desired. However, the abiding reality which every pilot must understand when thinking about this merger is that there is but one Company, there is but one employer. A failure of Air Canada pilots to understand and appreciate that reality will result in everyone paying a great price. The lessons of the furlough and of the regional jet rates should not be forgotten. A single seniority list, supported by all pilots, is the best, perhaps the only, long-term protection against the pattern of divide and conquer that has marked the past.[20]


[228] Mr. Picher's decision was silent with respect to bidding on schedules and vacation. A reader of the Award might have thought that seniority would govern the monthly bidding for schedules. As stated by the Plaintiffs, the Award did "leave open the possibility that a Connector pilot could bid into a vacancy and thereafter exercise his earlier seniority date to outbid Air Canada pilots for schedule and vacation."[21] This was subsequently clarified in Mr. Picher's November 7, 1995 supplementary award in which he stated that it was his intention that the Air Canada pilots above P.J. O'Hara would be unaffected for all bidding purposes including scheduling.

[229] Mr. Picher cautioned the Air Canada pilots to be mindful of the circumstances that gave rise to the declaration of merger in the first place and the prospect that such conditions could arise again in the future. He urged the Air Canada pilots to see the fairness with which the Award was constructed rather than focusing on the fact that a small percentage of Air Canada pilots would be affected. He wrote:
There is no reason to believe that the implementation of the merged seniority list which will result from this award, based on a final compromise proposal, will encounter any difficulty if it has the understanding and support of the Air Canada pilots.[22]
[230] He wrote that Air Canada pilots would misconceive the process if they were to view the Award as a loss to them.
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Re: Merger Example: Air Canada/Canadian Airlines Intl

Post by ALPApolicy »

From the Berry v. Pulley case in the preceding post, the following paragraph stands out. Is this an attempt at a Pilot Transfer Agreement (PTA) between Air Canada and the Connector airlines? Note the underlined part (my emphasis).
LOU 40
[284] In May or June, LOU 40 was prepared in draft by SMMAC. Captain Dean was the genesis of LOU 40. It was a complicated proposal that contemplated "an affiliation of pilots' seniority lists from which to grant preference of employment" when new pilots were required at Air Canada. Separate bargaining units, seniority lists and operations would be maintained. According to First Officer Filion, LOU 40 was to be an alternative to a merged seniority list as a consequence of which, the Picher Award would be put aside
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Re: Merger Example: Air Canada/Canadian Airlines Intl

Post by ALPApolicy »

THE PARTIES THEREFORE AGREE THAT:

1. ACPA and ALPA will take the following common positions in their pleadings and submissions with respect to the application:

(a) Since January 4, 2000, Air Canada and CAIL have carried on associated or related federal businesses under common control or direction, within the meaning of Section 35;

(b) The CIRB ought to exercise its discretion under Section 35 to declare that, for the purposes of Part I of the Code, Air Canada and CAIL are a single employer operating a single mainline airline business.

2. Subject to the right of ACPA and ALPA to take differing positions with respect to the sequence of issues to be determined by the CIRB and the timing of any CIRB Orders which may ultimately be appropriate, which right is specifically reserved by both ACPA and ALPA, ACPA and ALPA will also take the following further common positions in their pleadings and submissions with respect to the application:

(a) It is no longer appropriate to maintain two separate bargaining units for mainline pilots employed by Air Canada and CAIL respectively;

(b) Those two units should be combined to form a single mainline pilot bargaining unit at a time to be determined by the CIRB;
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.
.
3. Should the CIRB issue a single employer declaration and find that the two mainline bargaining units at Air Canada and Canadian Airlines ought to be combined, and provided that ACPA and ALPA have not by that time agreed upon any integrated seniority list, ACPA and ALPA will jointly request that an integrated seniority list for Air Canada and CAIL pilots be determined by the following process under Section 18.1 of the Code:


(a) The integration of the two seniority lists shall be determined by a sole arbitrator jointly selected by the parties, namely Morton Mitchnik;

(b) The arbitrator shall integrate the seniority lists based on such principles as he finds applicable to a bargaining unit consolidation triggered by a single employer declaration under the Code;

(c) The parties are free to make whatever submissions they wish as to what the applicable principles may be;

(d) The parties to the arbitration will be ACPA and ALPA. However, if the employer seek to intervene the arbitrator may permit Air Canada and Canadian Airlines to participate in the proceeding to the extent that he considers appropriate. The cost of the arbitration will be borne by the parties in such shares as they agree upon or the arbitrator decides. ACPA and ALPA will have the right to represent their pre-merger pilot groups throughout the arbitration process and before the CIRB with respect to any proceedings reasonably related to seniority integration, regardless of whether or not the CIRB has determined that one or the other of them has obtained the bargaining rights with respect to both pre-merger pilot groups;

(e) The arbitrator will not be governed by either union’s policy, if any, respecting the integration or merger of seniority lists;
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.
(g) The arbitrator shall have all the powers that the Board would itself have in merging seniority lists under the Code;

(h) Prior to the introduction of evidence in the arbitration, ACPA and ALPA will exchange detailed information on the pilot seniority lists at Air Canada and CAIL respectively, as those lists stood on January 3, 2000. The parties will forthwith have further discussions to identify the precise nature and format of the information to be exchanged;

(i) The arbitrator shall not make an award that alters the relative seniority rankings among employees who are legitimately on the seniority list of either of the two pre-merger pilot groups;

(j) Except as provided in the next paragraph the award(s) of thearbitrator shall be final and binding on ACPA, ALPA, Air Canada, CAIL and the pilots of Air Canada and CAIL;
A couple of things occur to me, assuming that the sale completes and common employer is declared between WSW/WJA bargaining unit and SWG bargaining unit.

1) The two merger committees will exchange seniority lists and verify that the pilots have the length of service with their respective companies as indicated by Date of Hire (DOH) information on the seniority lists. Length of service is normally one consideration in merging seniority lists. If WEN pilots were on a list handed to the SWG merger committee, as seems to be the position at this time taken by the WJA MEC, the WEN pilots would have zero days of service with the company because they don't work at WSW/WJA. Seems self evident.

2) There can be no finality of an arbitrated seniority list, which is normally a condition of an arbitrated award, if that list is going to be altered every time a WEN pilot flows from WEN to WSW/WJA/SWG tpo somewhere other than the BOTL. Therefore, I do not think the PTA cannot survive an arbitrated result. I suppose that ALPA could reapproach the WJA/WSW/SWG bargaining unit members for a vote on approving a newly negotiated PTA, but I do not think that the vote would pass, nor do I think it respects the finality of the award. Surely a case can be made for a Breach of Contract action against ALPA if they persist in sacrificing the seniority rights of the new bargaining unit members in a political venture.

The WJA/WSW bargaining unit MEC Policy Manual specifies that the MEC Chair (Master Chair) is the "Association representative at the airline for the purpose of furthering and implementing the objective and policies of the ALPA Board of Directors (BOD) and ALPA Executive Board."

Here is a policy of the ALPA BOD enacted in 1956:
2. STANDARDIZATION OF SENIORITY SECTIONS

SOURCE - Board 1956
ALPA is instructed to use every means at its command in standardizing for prospective application two Sections of all agreements.

a. Specifically, the part of the Seniority General Section which establishes hiring procedures and establishment of position on the seniority list, shall be standardized so that in the event of mergers, acquisitions, sales, etc., a common foundation will exist, thereby eliminating future controversy on this subject.

b. Specifically, the Section in all agreements pertaining to sales, mergers, acquisitions, etc., shall be standardized and encompass adequate legal force and effect consistent with appropriate public law.

3. SENIORITY - GENERAL

SOURCE - Board 1956; AMENDED - Executive Board December 1971; Administrative January 1998 (Canada Reference Added); Executive Board September 1998

a. Seniority of a pilot shall be based upon the length of service as a pilot with the Company.

b. Seniority shall begin to accrue from the date upon which a pilot employed by the Company as a pilot begins initial operational training required to perform such duties in airline operations and shall continue to accrue during such period of employment except as otherwise provided in their agreement. The date upon which a pilot first appears upon the Company's payroll as a pilot and begins initial operational training required to perform such duties in airline operations shall establish such pilot's position on the System Seniority List.
I fail to see how the MEC could once again renegotiate a PTA 2.0 that makes a mockery of ALPA's oldest and most fundamental policy. Not only would the WJA MEC not be "furthering and implementing the objective and policies of the ALPA Board of Directors (BOD)", they would be deliberately attempting to do the opposite.
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