#FakeSeniorityList

[ALPApolicy]

What is stopping SWG Airlines and Unifor from signing a One List style "Seniority List" today, in advance of a purchase by WestJet? They would *NOT* necessarily have to give the PAL pilots DOH, but perhaps they could give them guaranteed spots on the SWG seniority list, and the rights accorded to PAL pilots would (similar to the PTA) survive the extinguishing of this One List (if the parties agreed to cancel the agreement, as is the case with the PTA). Similar to Encore pilots who have not been hired at WestJet or Swoop, these PAL pilots would not yet be hired at SWG but would have rights to a place on the SWG list. This would have the effect of improving the relative numbers of their side compared to our side in the event that this is not a DOH merge but rather a ratio merge involving these great big group-wide-anything-goes-I'll-sell-you-a-night-with-my-mom seniority lists.

I imagine the negotiation for a merged seniority list would be interesting. Encore pilots and WSW/WJA pilots who flowed from Encore and the WJA MEC and others all maintain that the group-wide Seniority List is the list that will be used for integrating the SWG pilots. In this hypothetical scenario above, we would have to include the PAL pilots in the process of integrating on to the Seniority List too, because although they are not parties to the merger, neither is Encore. Encore would not be a party (at least not a successful party) to the Common Employer request under Section 35 of the Code, and neither would PAL.

Here's an idea: why doesn't the WJA MEC approach every airline in Canada and sign One List style agreements with them and create that industry wide seniority list? Maybe Unifor could do the same and we could watch as we try to place 5,000 pilots from 8 airlines onto one giant list.

[ALPApolicy]

Those pilotsforchange.ca guys who want change at Air Canada. Are they still saying what a great job ALPA did at WestJet?

[altiplano]

Sounds like your guys that did that... the one list thing...

Weren't you guys even doing it before you got ALPA in?

ALPA sure didn't make you do it. Maybe they helped you formalize it, but they sure didn't make you.

It sure isn't at any other ALPA airlines... Endeavour Pilots going to Delta... Horizon Pilots going to Alaska... etc. etc...

And you're on what? First contract?

AC Pilots are at 85 years with 20 years of only concessions under ACPA... maybe you guys should join ACPA? I'll trade you Associations any day.

[ALPApolicy]

Sounds like your guys that did that... the one list thing...

Weren't you guys even doing it before you got ALPA in?

ALPA sure didn't make you do it. Maybe they helped you formalize it, but they sure didn't make you.

It sure isn't at any other ALPA airlines... Endeavour Pilots going to Delta... Horizon Pilots going to Alaska... etc. etc...

And you're on what? First contract?

AC Pilots are at 85 years with 20 years of only concessions under ACPA... maybe you guys should join ACPA? I'll trade you Associations any day.

Fair enough. It was an unforced error on the MEC's part. ALPA (Herndon) just went along with what the MEC wanted. The thing is, we were an uncertified group on our first contract. We needed the support and experience of ALPA. The pilots at WJ were sold on ALPA's "toolbox". Guess what? Our MEC ignored the most fundamental tool in that tool box, a Date of Hire seniority list. ALPA's Board of Directors issued the policy on Date of Hire seniority list construction in 1956 (see attachment) and it is still in force today. In it, they said that ALPA is "instructed to use every means at their command" to achieve a seniority list ordered by Date of Hire.

Our MEC used every means at their command to ignore ALPA's BOD policy. The ALPA Constitution & Bylaws states that the President and the MEC Chairman are tasked with "furthering and implementing established BOD policies...". The WestJet and Swoop pilots had a right to expect that the ALPA President and the MEC Chair would follow the Constitution. And as may soon discover, we may pay dearly for their dereliction.

A lot of maybe's. Time will tell if I am just the boy crying that the sky is falling.

ALPA_1956_BOD_Resolution_Seniority_Definition_resize.jpg (1.44 MiB) Viewed 2697 times

[ALPApolicy]

.. maybe you guys should join ACPA? I'll trade you Associations any day.

I am legitimately concerned that our association and the Merger Committee it sends to the table with the SunWing Merger Committee will not be representing the interests and only the interests of the Swoop/WestJet bargaining unit members. I think that we might be okay as I believe the SunWing pilots will likely not let Encore pilots be part of the merger negotiations should they happen, as they would not be part of a Single Employer declaration should it be sought and declared. Futher, should this matter go to arbitration, I believe the arbitrator's award would be final. I do not believe the apparent rights granted to existing Encore pilots will survive the merged list. That is contraversial but I do not see it as possible. How could an arbitrator spend time and energy exploring all of the issues related to merging two bargaining units only to have his award upended by pre-existing rights of non-bargaining unit members? The only option I see is that the WJA MEC would be forced to negotiate with WJA to reproduce PTA 2.0 for presentation to the membership for approval but I believe this time that the membership would more readily defend their interests and enlist the aid of the CIRB to do so.

Would ACPA entertain the idea of accepting us into their association as we approach the open period of our contract? Does the ACPA constitution allow for us to join? Would ACPA be interested?

I know the history of ACPA as far as the defense of seniority rights go. There is no fiercer defender of the seniority rights of their members than ACPA. I am sure the SunWing pilot and the pilots who have signed with the United Pilots of WestJet (UPW) as well as the Off The Street (OTS) pilots hired at WSW/WJA since 2014 would be interested.

[altiplano]

.. maybe you guys should join ACPA? I'll trade you Associations any day.

I am legitimately concerned that our association and the Merger Committee it sends to the table with the SunWing Merger Committee will not be representing the interests and only the interests of the Swoop/WestJet bargaining unit members. I think that we might be okay as I believe the SunWing pilots will likely not let Encore pilots be part of the merger negotiations should they happen, as they would not be part of a Single Employer declaration should it be sought and declared. Futher, should this matter go to arbitration, I believe the arbitrator's award would be final. I do not believe the apparent rights granted to existing Encore pilots will survive the merged list. That is contraversial but I do not see it as possible. How could an arbitrator spend time and energy exploring all of the issues related to merging two bargaining units only to have his award upended by pre-existing rights of non-bargaining unit members? The only option I see is that the WJA MEC would be forced to negotiate with WJA to reproduce PTA 2.0 for presentation to the membership for approval but I believe this time that the membership would more readily defend their interests and enlist the aid of the CIRB to do so.

Would ACPA entertain the idea of accepting us into their association as we approach the open period of our contract? Does the ACPA constitution allow for us to join? Would ACPA be interested?

I know the history of ACPA as far as the defense of seniority rights go. There is no fiercer defender of the seniority rights of their members than ACPA. I am sure the SunWing pilot and the pilots who have signed with the United Pilots of WestJet (UPW) as well as the Off The Street (OTS) pilots hired at WSW/WJA since 2014 would be interested.

I like the idea of AC/WJ guys strategically going the same direction with common representation, but I don't think under ACPA is the way. That place, the structure, the governance, the results, is a train wreck.

Ultimately it's on the people that we've put in there and their failure to follow recommendations from outside experts, their negligence in following guidance from member surveys, their blatant misrepresentation to the membership of their intentions, and their track record of tie-ins with management.

Seems your problem is the PTA, I remember it being debated on this web board and I thought you guys were crazy to even entertain it... there was no benefit to your mainline members in the first iteration, the second got you some bumping rights iirc, but still... seniority is lifeblood when it comes to any disruptions in this business, seems it was trifled with haphazardly though in an era of unprecedented growth and expansion that perhaps seemed too easy until it wasn't, until the wrench was thrown in.

So maybe you should look at removing yourselves from that deal. Either way, I've stated on this forum that I don't see an arbitrator in an SLI maintaining it. Encore aren't "likes" and are a third party, I don't believe they would be a factor in an integration resulting from a common employer declaration. It works be unfair to disadvantage the SW pilots. The Encore pilots that already transferred would maintain their relative seniority at the time of CE declaration, but anyone after? BOTL no doubt.

[ALPApolicy]

It is probable that the Encore flow pilots hired at WJA post CBA (January 1, 2019) maintain their relative position on the seniority list.

The problem is where is that list and what does it look like? The CBA describes the Pilot Seniority List (PSL) as being Date of Hire (at WSW/WJA) for those hired after January 1, 2019. Unfortunately, that document has not located as of today and I sincerely doubt the Company nor our MEC will willingly distribute it without a fight.

The quote seniority list unquote generated by the PTA is an amalgam of the pilots of two bargaining units who have not been combined by order of the CIRB nor has Single Employer been declared by the CIRB between Encore and Swoop/WestJet. Therefore, we have two competing lists with different ordering for the post CBA flow pilots. I know which one I think is the seniority list that will be handed to the CIRB; it is the one generated by the CBA. Nothing in the PTA references extinguishing the PSL. Additionally, although the framers of the PTA provided for the cancellation of the Agreement, they did not specify a means to replace the cancelled quote seniority list unquote. Probably because they didn't need to; the PSL is still a live document.

Regarding your ACPA comments: I think the time has come to

MAKE ALPA REGIONAL AGAIN

and create a Canadian national pilot union with the guidance of our ACPA brethren. How great would it be to have both major airlines in Canada united under one umbrella?

[altiplano]

That would be great.

The structure exists, the governance exists, the resources exist, it's called ALPA.

You need restructuring at ALPA Canada though.

Again, a say proportional to membership and dues numbers, ie. roll call votes. That's the problem with ALPA Canada. Wasaya has an equal say to Westjet? WTF?

How many are at WJ now? Swoop? Plus SW? What works the dues be? 4000 or $10million and you would be Group A under the previously negotiated restructuring merger deal, and out from under any affiliation with Group C dreams.

Do you think Delta guys give a shit what come lately Beech bush regional in Group B or C wants? F-no, they get their own say in the Union without any influence from those guys.

Starting a new union? The C-suite would have their way with it for years before it found it's feet... too much lost opportunity when everything already exists at ALPA. You need to think and start acting big ALPA though and get out from the ALPA-C politics.

Group A, ALPA Canada disassociated from Group C, and roll call voting on all ALPA Canada issues. That's the way...

[ALPApolicy]

That would be great.

The structure exists, the governance exists, the resources exist, it's called ALPA.

You need restructuring at ALPA Canada though.

Again, a say proportional to membership and dues numbers, ie. roll call votes. That's the problem with ALPA Canada. Wasaya has an equal say to Westjet? WTF?

How many are at WJ now? Swoop? Plus SW? What works the dues be? 4000 or $10million and you would be Group A under the previously negotiated restructuring merger deal, and out from under any affiliation with Group C dreams.

Do you think Delta guys give a shit what come lately Beech bush regional in Group B or C wants? F-no, they get their own say in the Union without any influence from those guys.

Starting a new union? The C-suite would have their way with it for years before it found it's feet... too much lost opportunity when everything already exists at ALPA. You need to think and start acting big ALPA though and get out from the ALPA-C politics.

Group A, ALPA Canada disassociated from Group C, and roll call voting on all ALPA Canada issues. That's the way...

I don't think so. We already tackled the big stumbling block which was certifying. I was COMPLETELY against that but it is here now and I support it. But I want ALPA to follow its own rules, which they repeatedly failed to do and are failing to do and will fail to do in the future. ALPA at WJ and ALPA at Encore have no intention of following the Constitution and ALPA BOD policy. ALPA and the Company both collaborated to rob our bargaining unit members of their seniority rights. ACPA would never have done that. NEVER! It is why they exist!

We are in the same predicament that Air Canada pilots were when they were in CALPA. We need the same remedy: escape from ALPA. Politically though, we can't join Unifor or the UPW, the two possible pretenders to the throne. We need the attraction of ACPA with its national scope and its airline focus and its made in Canada pedigree.

I am beginning discussions with people. Some have been hostile. Apparently I am an ignorant ass. That's okay. I am not a politician and have no intention of being one. I could have served on the Merger Committee but I would only repesent the interests of the Swoop/WestJet bargaining unit and not the interests of Encore pilots. That puts me at odds of our MEC who seem to believe they owe a duty of care to Encore pilots.

The WSW/WJA bargaining unit is approximately 1800 pilots and SunWing is approximately 450. If I add the pilots of the UPW to the pilots of SunWing to the WJA/WSW OTS pilots who have been bypassed by Encore pilots to the pilots who are unimpressed with ALPA's performance to date, it would not suprise me if I already have the numbers for a successful raid by ACPA.

Take care,

Captain John Swallow
pilotjohnjohn@gmail.com
70five 89zero 89zerosix