The iATPL programme in Brampton and Jazz Approach
Moderators: sky's the limit, sepia, Sulako, Right Seat Captain, lilfssister, North Shore
Re: The iATPL programme in Brampton and Jazz Approach
There is nothing worse in aviation then being PIC poor. The reality is the iATPL accomplishes just that. PIC is king, full stop. When you want that left seat in a jet one day a major part of it is PIC for upgrade eligibility. Never mind the bare minimum for the ATPL (250 PIC) the more you have the better off you are. It does not matter where the PIC came from so long as you have it. Sure the Jazz connection is nice, however as some have already pointed out; jobs can be reserved for the top few in the class. Your better off going to a good FTU getting all the goods and building time after that. Instructing, Pipeline, etc, all have pros and cons and I don't wanna get into that here. Seneca, Western, and others are easily over 6 figures nowadays, you can get a CPL MIFR for less then that outside a college program. You have to be willing to work those entry level jobs and get to Jazz from there.
-
- Rank 3
- Posts: 170
- Joined: Sun Feb 23, 2020 3:47 pm
Re: The iATPL programme in Brampton and Jazz Approach
You see, that’s the problem.
A lot of people aren’t willing to work those entry level jobs, they despise them, all they want is go straight to a jet.
Re: The iATPL programme in Brampton and Jazz Approach
100% agree. As long as there cool spending the 19-20k to get 100 more PIC for the ATPL later on then hey, why not.Turboprops wrote: ↑Mon Jan 03, 2022 10:02 pmYou see, that’s the problem.
A lot of people aren’t willing to work those entry level jobs, they despise them, all they want is go straight to a jet.
Re: The iATPL programme in Brampton and Jazz Approach
That seems boring.Turboprops wrote: ↑Mon Jan 03, 2022 10:02 pmYou see, that’s the problem.
A lot of people aren’t willing to work those entry level jobs, they despise them, all they want is go straight to a jet.
-
- Rank 3
- Posts: 170
- Joined: Sun Feb 23, 2020 3:47 pm
Re: The iATPL programme in Brampton and Jazz Approach
Not for their instagram account, or when talking to friends about being an “actual” “commercial” pilotI WAS Pez wrote: ↑Tue Jan 04, 2022 9:06 amThat seems boring.Turboprops wrote: ↑Mon Jan 03, 2022 10:02 pmYou see, that’s the problem.
A lot of people aren’t willing to work those entry level jobs, they despise them, all they want is go straight to a jet.
-
- Rank 6
- Posts: 485
- Joined: Wed Apr 14, 2021 7:18 am
Re: The iATPL programme in Brampton and Jazz Approach
Why should they have to be willing to work those entry level jobs? Those jobs that pressure new pilots to fly overweight, broken and outright unsafe equipment into unsafe conditions? Just because you had to do it, doesn't mean it's the correct or only path to being a safe and competent pilot at the airlines.
Don't get me wrong, I look back on my time up north with fondness. Made lifelong friends, saw beautiful parts of Canada and it's where the vast majority of my stories come from. But that doesn't negate all the negative aspects of it, specially the unnecessarily dangerous operations a large percentage of Northern outfits run. Wasn't a Twotter just flown till it ran out of fuel? I doubt the pilot made that decision all on his own, without pressure from management.
Having gone the North route during the early years of my career, I certainly would have taken the option of going straight into a Dash or RJ at Jazz/Encore if it was available. Sure the flying is routine, but making more money to fly much better equipment into well serviced airports, not having to load or fuel anything, not worrying about having to explain my decision to get sprayed, is a no brainer to me.
I think the reality is that lots of people are angry that many young pilots didn't have to go through what they did. The proverbial, "Pay your dues". Pay my dues to whom? No one but me paid for my flight training. I don't owe slave labour to some angry owner telling me to fill the voids of the 208 that was already 300lbs overweight with chips. Even a layover with the whole crew in Saskatchewan is way more fun than getting plastered at the crew house in Pickle.
Don't get me wrong, I look back on my time up north with fondness. Made lifelong friends, saw beautiful parts of Canada and it's where the vast majority of my stories come from. But that doesn't negate all the negative aspects of it, specially the unnecessarily dangerous operations a large percentage of Northern outfits run. Wasn't a Twotter just flown till it ran out of fuel? I doubt the pilot made that decision all on his own, without pressure from management.
Having gone the North route during the early years of my career, I certainly would have taken the option of going straight into a Dash or RJ at Jazz/Encore if it was available. Sure the flying is routine, but making more money to fly much better equipment into well serviced airports, not having to load or fuel anything, not worrying about having to explain my decision to get sprayed, is a no brainer to me.
I think the reality is that lots of people are angry that many young pilots didn't have to go through what they did. The proverbial, "Pay your dues". Pay my dues to whom? No one but me paid for my flight training. I don't owe slave labour to some angry owner telling me to fill the voids of the 208 that was already 300lbs overweight with chips. Even a layover with the whole crew in Saskatchewan is way more fun than getting plastered at the crew house in Pickle.
-
- Rank 3
- Posts: 170
- Joined: Sun Feb 23, 2020 3:47 pm
Re: The iATPL programme in Brampton and Jazz Approach
Lol why so angry? In my limited 702/3/4 experience I have never been pressured to do anything “unsafe”, if I get into sketchy conditions it was because “I” made bad decisions, not my boss.Tbayer2021 wrote: ↑Tue Jan 04, 2022 10:20 am Why should they have to be willing to work those entry level jobs? Those jobs that pressure new pilots to fly overweight, broken and outright unsafe equipment into unsafe conditions? Just because you had to do it, doesn't mean it's the correct or only path to being a safe and competent pilot at the airlines.
Don't get me wrong, I look back on my time up north with fondness. Made lifelong friends, saw beautiful parts of Canada and it's where the vast majority of my stories come from. But that doesn't negate all the negative aspects of it, specially the unnecessarily dangerous operations a large percentage of Northern outfits run. Wasn't a Twotter just flown till it ran out of fuel? I doubt the pilot made that decision all on his own, without pressure from management.
Having gone the North route during the early years of my career, I certainly would have taken the option of going straight into a Dash or RJ at Jazz/Encore if it was available. Sure the flying is routine, but making more money to fly much better equipment into well serviced airports, not having to load or fuel anything, not worrying about having to explain my decision to get sprayed, is a no brainer to me.
I think the reality is that lots of people are angry that many young pilots didn't have to go through what they did. The proverbial, "Pay your dues". Pay my dues to whom? No one but me paid for my flight training. I don't owe slave labour to some angry owner telling me to fill the voids of the 208 that was already 300lbs overweight with chips. Even a layover with the whole crew in Saskatchewan is way more fun than getting plastered at the crew house in Pickle.
The work environment you described is shit, and i agree that no one should “pay their dues” to do unsafe and dangerous shit, but not all companies are like that.
I’m not sure why you didn’t call TC and let them know about your previous sketchy flying, but I did.
Now the new pilots at my old job are enjoying a tiny bit of better conditions, not by much, but better.
Re: The iATPL programme in Brampton and Jazz Approach
Thanks guys, your advices are valuable no matter you stand with the European cadet pilot style or traditional Canadian pilot style.
As many people in Canada will go north, is it a must to be a ramp agent before having a right seat? I see the majority posts are saying so. Is there possible to end up not having a flying job after being a ramp agent for several years in north and wasting time and money?
What I've read in the forum, are successful stories of : Flight training > Instructor - getting PIC hours > ATPL > Go North being ramp agent and have airliner right seat > 705.
I understand there's no guarantee in the world, but I would like to know the reality in Canada as an international student: Is it very likely majority of the people could achieve their 705 dream through this path? Or the reality is, majority of them end up not having a flying job after paying the training fee and having a ramp job?
As many people in Canada will go north, is it a must to be a ramp agent before having a right seat? I see the majority posts are saying so. Is there possible to end up not having a flying job after being a ramp agent for several years in north and wasting time and money?
What I've read in the forum, are successful stories of : Flight training > Instructor - getting PIC hours > ATPL > Go North being ramp agent and have airliner right seat > 705.
I understand there's no guarantee in the world, but I would like to know the reality in Canada as an international student: Is it very likely majority of the people could achieve their 705 dream through this path? Or the reality is, majority of them end up not having a flying job after paying the training fee and having a ramp job?
-
- Rank 3
- Posts: 170
- Joined: Sun Feb 23, 2020 3:47 pm
Re: The iATPL programme in Brampton and Jazz Approach
The ramp before an FO spot is “usually” done by people with no experience (ie 250 hour fresh CPL)HD9113 wrote: ↑Tue Jan 04, 2022 7:39 pm Thanks guys, your advices are valuable no matter you stand with the European cadet pilot style or traditional Canadian pilot style.
As many people in Canada will go north, is it a must to be a ramp agent before having a right seat? I see the majority posts are saying so. Is there possible to end up not having a flying job after being a ramp agent for several years in north and wasting time and money?
What I've read in the forum, are successful stories of : Flight training > Instructor - getting PIC hours > ATPL > Go North being ramp agent and have airliner right seat > 705.
I understand there's no guarantee in the world, but I would like to know the reality in Canada as an international student: Is it very likely majority of the people could achieve their 705 dream through this path? Or the reality is, majority of them end up not having a flying job after paying the training fee and having a ramp job?
If you have some experience, say 1000 hours from instructing or other survey job, you’d get a flying spot right away.
That’s if you can get an offer, because let’s be honest, right now there’s a bunch of 1000 hour instructors that can’t get a 703/704 job.
I’d modify your path a bit:
1. Get your CPL - instruct/survey - (maybe northern) 703 704 jobs - 705 airline job. People get their ATPL some point along the way, but you’ll have a hard time getting PIC time in 705. Not impossible with PICUS but I’ve already explained this before
2. Get your CPL - ramp for x months/years - FO on a 703/704 job - maybe go captain at their 703/4 - 705 airlines
There are definitely companies that take longer to get a flying spot than others, when times were tough it’s not uncommon to ramp for 2+ years. Of course depends on your work ethic and other things.
When times were good people were getting hired directly onto a multi turbine (King air/metros etc). People were getting Q400 jobs with 1000 hours of cessna time
If you’re not stupid and doesn’t have a terrible attitude, with hard work and some luck you’ll eventually get to 705
-
- Rank 5
- Posts: 369
- Joined: Wed Nov 23, 2005 2:29 am
Re: The iATPL programme in Brampton and Jazz Approach
You are contemplating entering a profession in that society entrusts you to perform at a standard far higher than you may realize. To do this well takes skill, knowledge and judgement that current training cannot provide. A few airlines do this successfully, as do they airforce, but they spend millions training a pilot not a few hundred thousand. The entire iATPL program is just a method the industry has devised to keep the pipeline full of cheap pilots.
Do what you love, take the time to acquire the knowledge, skill, and judgement, and the money will follow. And so will the inner confidence and pride in your profession.
Do what you love, take the time to acquire the knowledge, skill, and judgement, and the money will follow. And so will the inner confidence and pride in your profession.
-
- Rank 0
- Posts: 7
- Joined: Thu Feb 25, 2021 4:42 pm
Re: The iATPL programme in Brampton and Jazz Approach
Correct, initial intake was 12 split into two groups (6+6) to stagger the start date by about three weeks. The number was so low because it was a trial or proof of concept for the Jazz Approach program, with intentions of increasing the number of successful applicants the following year. After everything came to a halt with COVID the program pretty much fizzled out quietly, and I anticipate it will be a number of years before we see the Jazz Approach start back up again. The total cost for each applicant was somewhere in the neighbourhood of $120k. So, over two years of training you would have the bare bones for flight training, some classroom knowledge in aviation courses and a CRJ-200 PPC in a simulator to prepare you for your conditional offer of employment with Jazz. I'm not sure what the selection criteria for the program was based on, nor what would happen to graduates who were not hired by Jazz. Guess we'll just have to wait and see.HD9113 wrote: ↑Thu Dec 30, 2021 9:00 pmfrom this thread :
http://www.avcanada.ca/forums2/viewtopic.php?t=135540
Someone stated that initial intake was 6+6 (2 batches), but still not much info. about it whether it is the recruitment process being strict that makes the number low or number of applicants being low.
I really appreciate if more info. about this program will be disclosed since I have browsed through all networks and seems no clue.
-
- Rank 3
- Posts: 170
- Joined: Sun Feb 23, 2020 3:47 pm
Re: The iATPL programme in Brampton and Jazz Approach
Imagine spending 120k for a bare license then off to instructing…ReducedSeparation wrote: ↑Fri Jan 07, 2022 2:10 pm
nor what would happen to graduates who were not hired by Jazz. Guess we'll just have to wait and see.
Re: The iATPL programme in Brampton and Jazz Approach
Whatever you do, do not rely solely on PICUS to obtain your ATPL. That's a bad career plan that will come back to bite you one way or another.
58
58
Re: The iATPL programme in Brampton and Jazz Approach
Some of the best experience I got when I started out was flying solo doing survey. You do learn a lot flying multi crew but you’ll get super valuable experience when you make all the decisions and you have no one to back you up.
Welcome to Redneck Airlines. We might not get you there but we'll get you close!
Re: The iATPL programme in Brampton and Jazz Approach
I have no idea why there is not much discussion about survey flying in the forum but how is the lifestyle of being it and does it stably make good hours? Is it a difficult to get into the survey pilot industry?
Re: The iATPL programme in Brampton and Jazz Approach
The reason so many people talk about survey is that it’s one of the ways people start out in the industry (along with heading North, or instructing). It’s easier to get a survey job as a bare bones cpl than to get in at Jazz in one of these programs. Lifestyle depends on the company but generally it’s a rotation system. So you head off somewhere to fly for a couple months then head home for 3 weeks to a month. Now this is all for geophysical/LiDAR survey. Pipeline patrol I have no experience with. And as far as where you go for the contracts it can range from very remote to places like Los Angeles. For hours, also depends on the company and how busy they are but you can easily fly a lot as a survey pilot. Hope this helps.
Welcome to Redneck Airlines. We might not get you there but we'll get you close!
Re: The iATPL programme in Brampton and Jazz Approach
Would anyone be able to confirm how many total hours and how many PIC hours do students of this program graduate with?
@HD9113 did you end up applying?
@HD9113 did you end up applying?
Re: The iATPL programme in Brampton and Jazz Approach
Jazz Approach application is still not open yet
For, iATPL since I'm an international student they do not accept application for intl students atm.