Renew Instructor rating to train son

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Rouge1
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Renew Instructor rating to train son

Post by Rouge1 »

Good day,

Little background. Current AC pilot with a 19 year old son showing interest in a flying career. I never promoted the industry so this is on him and him alone.

Can someone enlighten me about the renewal of a long lapsed instructor rating. To be specific a Class2 lapsed around 25 years ago. Would I have to start from scratch (class4 supervised) or just write the exams and get a referral and flight test? Obviously after some renewal training.

With the cost of training these days I’m thinking it may be cheaper overall to renew and either purchase a simple trainer or enter an aircraft share agreement. Then sell aircraft when no longer needed.

Thoughts?

Thanks
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final28
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Re: Renew Instructor rating to train son

Post by final28 »

CAR 421.66

01)
(c) Where a flight instructor rating has been invalid for more than 24 months, an applicant for renewal shall:
(amended 1998/09/01)
(i) provide a recommendation from the holder of a Class 1 Flight Instructor Rating in the appropriate category indicating that the applicant is considered competent to complete the written examination(s) and undertake an instructor flight test;
(ii) successfully complete the examination requirement set forth under Knowledge for the appropriate flight instructor rating; and
(iii) successfully complete a flight test for the appropriate flight instructor rating.
(amended 2000/09/01)

So you would need a recommend for both the written and flight test. If you have not instructed in 25 years you may need to put in some work to update lesson plans and PGIs. Try to find a local class 1 instructor to discuss with.

Good luck!
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photofly
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Re: Renew Instructor rating to train son

Post by photofly »

The usual restrictions on the airplane apply: either you or he will have to be a direct owner of at least a share of the airplane - no shared corporation ownership. The airplane will have to be a type approved for intentional spins, and the insurer will need to approve ab-initio training and solo flight by a student, and will want a premium for that.
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DId you hear the one about the jurisprudence fetishist? He got off on a technicality.
digits_
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Re: Renew Instructor rating to train son

Post by digits_ »

I hate to be a party pooper, but if you haven't instructed in 25 years, are you sure this is the best course of action?

I can understand the appeal, but practically it might not be the best solution.

1) How will you judge if your son is ready for a first solo or for subsequent solo flights? It's a hard enough decision if you're donig it full time for students you don't have a family relatinship with. But he will be your first student in 25 years. Can you make that decision (correctly?). And -going full doomy and gloomy-, could you live with yourself if you got it wrong?

2) If you're looking at the cheapest option, would it make sense to pay to get you up to standards? That would eaily pay for a few flying hours for your son.

In general, I could see this become a frustrating experience, both for you and your son.
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photofly
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Re: Renew Instructor rating to train son

Post by photofly »

You are gloomy today. Not many people die on their first solo flight as PIC of a Cessna 172. Like, none. Ever.

In terms of cost, I think it would definitely be cheaper, all the way to CPL. If you get on ok, it would be a huge amount of fun. If you don't get on, then it would be a nightmare, but you'll already have a plane to use with another instructor, by the time you find out. It could also be waaaay quicker if you have an ok schedule.
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DId you hear the one about the jurisprudence fetishist? He got off on a technicality.
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Bede
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Re: Renew Instructor rating to train son

Post by Bede »

PM sent
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Bede
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Re: Renew Instructor rating to train son

Post by Bede »

photofly wrote: Mon Mar 28, 2022 4:30 am The usual restrictions on the airplane apply: either you or he will have to be a direct owner of at least a share of the airplane - no shared corporation ownership.
Not quite true. If you look up Flight Training Service and trace the definitions back to the Aeronautics Act, that's only true if you want to receive remuneration.
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photofly
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Re: Renew Instructor rating to train son

Post by photofly »

Bede wrote: Mon Mar 28, 2022 12:28 pm
photofly wrote: Mon Mar 28, 2022 4:30 am The usual restrictions on the airplane apply: either you or he will have to be a direct owner of at least a share of the airplane - no shared corporation ownership.
Not quite true. If you look up Flight Training Service and trace the definitions back to the Aeronautics Act, that's only true if you want to receive remuneration.
It's only true if *anyone* wants to receive remuneration - including the owner of the plane. So if the plane is going to be owned by other than an FTU, the trainee, or the family member of the trainee, that owner would have to be particularly charitably minded and for the duration of the PPL training donate its use without being remibursed even as much as $1. I don't know many owners who'd give away 50-70 hours of flight time on their 172 for free.
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DId you hear the one about the jurisprudence fetishist? He got off on a technicality.
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Bede
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Re: Renew Instructor rating to train son

Post by Bede »

photofly wrote: Mon Mar 28, 2022 1:04 pm
Bede wrote: Mon Mar 28, 2022 12:28 pm
photofly wrote: Mon Mar 28, 2022 4:30 am The usual restrictions on the airplane apply: either you or he will have to be a direct owner of at least a share of the airplane - no shared corporation ownership.
Not quite true. If you look up Flight Training Service and trace the definitions back to the Aeronautics Act, that's only true if you want to receive remuneration.
It's only true if *anyone* wants to receive remuneration - including the owner of the plane. So if the plane is going to be owned by other than an FTU, the trainee, or the family member of the trainee, that owner would have to be particularly charitably minded and for the duration of the PPL training donate its use without being remibursed even as much as $1. I don't know many owners who'd give away 50-70 hours of flight time on their 172 for free.
Correct. A father might...
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co-joe
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Re: Renew Instructor rating to train son

Post by co-joe »

If you really want to be involved in his training, it might be fun to just pay a freelance instructor to do his training on your own aircraft, which is way cheaper than paying a school and still gives you direct involvement in the education. Then you can teach his ratings, because an instructor rating is not required for that. Night, VFR OTT, IFR, and Multi for example. You could actually even teach him a recreational pilot permit, which would allow him to build time towards the PPL, and CPL which he would still need an instructor for. Also look at something like taking gliding lessons together. That would be great character and skill building for the both of you.
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photofly
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Re: Renew Instructor rating to train son

Post by photofly »

co-joe wrote: Mon Mar 28, 2022 7:35 pm If you really want to be involved in his training, it might be fun to just pay a freelance instructor to do his training on your own aircraft, which is way cheaper than paying a school and still gives you direct involvement in the education. Then you can teach his ratings, because an instructor rating is not required for that. Night, VFR OTT, IFR, and Multi for example. You could actually even teach him a recreational pilot permit, which would allow him to build time towards the PPL, and CPL which he would still need an instructor for. Also look at something like taking gliding lessons together. That would be great character and skill building for the both of you.
Alas, not.
421.22 Recreational - Aeroplane - Requirements.
.
.

(4) Experience
(a) An applicant shall have completed a minimum of 25 hours recreational pilot flight training under the direction and supervision of the holder of a flight instructor rating - aeroplane in aeroplanes operating with a Certificate of Airworthiness.
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DId you hear the one about the jurisprudence fetishist? He got off on a technicality.
co-joe
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Re: Renew Instructor rating to train son

Post by co-joe »

Shucks, I thought that might not work like it did in ultralights. But the rest is still true. Thanks for the correction photo.
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khedrei
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Re: Renew Instructor rating to train son

Post by khedrei »

co-joe wrote: Tue Mar 29, 2022 12:01 pm Shucks, I thought that might not work like it did in ultralights. But the rest is still true. Thanks for the correction photo.
Again... not completely true.

Night rating is required to be done by an instructor and at least 5 hours of the IFR rating is required to be done by an instructor. I believe that the VFR OTT also needs 5 hrs from an instructor but I could be wrong on that one.

To the OP, Not a bad idea if you have a good relationship with your son. I dont know that I would make the decision based solely on the goal of saving money. I own a few planes, and renting is way cheaper. You also have more choice if a plane goes down for maintenance, particularly for a major repair for a long period of time. That being said, you might enjoy having your own gig, and getting back into flying small planes on your schedule teaching your son. Do it for that reason, not to save money. Chances are it will cost you more.
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photofly
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Re: Renew Instructor rating to train son

Post by photofly »

By the time you have a PPL and a night rating, you have enough instrument hours (10) to continue with the rest of the instrument dual time (another 10 hours) needed for an instrument rating with another pilot whose qualifications don’t need to include an instructor rating.
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DId you hear the one about the jurisprudence fetishist? He got off on a technicality.
khedrei
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Re: Renew Instructor rating to train son

Post by khedrei »

photofly wrote: Thu Mar 31, 2022 9:38 am By the time you have a PPL and a night rating, you have enough instrument hours (10) to continue with the rest of the instrument dual time (another 10 hours) needed for an instrument rating with another pilot whose qualifications don’t need to include an instructor rating.
Instrument rating is 40 hours of dual not 20. But I get your point that the 5 from an instructor is already done.
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digits_
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Re: Renew Instructor rating to train son

Post by digits_ »

khedrei wrote: Thu Mar 31, 2022 1:49 pm
photofly wrote: Thu Mar 31, 2022 9:38 am By the time you have a PPL and a night rating, you have enough instrument hours (10) to continue with the rest of the instrument dual time (another 10 hours) needed for an instrument rating with another pilot whose qualifications don’t need to include an instructor rating.
Instrument rating is 40 hours of dual not 20. But I get your point that the 5 from an instructor is already done.
You're pretty brave arguing with photofly over license requirements :D

Here's the standards quote:
b) Experience
An applicant shall have completed a minimum of:

(i) 50 hours of cross-country flight as pilot-in-command in aeroplanes or helicopters of which 10 hours must be in the appropriate category; and
(ii) 40 hours of instrument time of which a maximum of 20 hours may be instrument ground time. The 40 hours instrument time shall include a minimum of:
(A) 5 hours of dual instrument flight time acquired from the holder of a flight instructor rating ,
(B) 5 hours in aeroplanes where the applicant is applying for a Group 1, 2 or 3 instrument rating or in helicopters where the applicant is applying for a Group 4 instrument rating,
(C) Fifteen (15) hours of dual instrument flight time provided by a qualified person as specified in section 425.21(9); and
(amended 1998/03/23)
(D) one dual cross-country flight under simulated or actual IMC conditions of a minimum of 100 nautical miles, the flight to be conducted in accordance with an IFR flight plan to include at, two different locations, an instrument approach to minima.
Only 5 hours dual required from a flight instructor.
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As an AvCanada discussion grows longer:
-the probability of 'entitlement' being mentioned, approaches 1
-one will be accused of using bad airmanship
photofly
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Re: Renew Instructor rating to train son

Post by photofly »

The point being, that by the time the son has a PPL, the father can do the rest of the instrument rating training. Night rating - no.
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DId you hear the one about the jurisprudence fetishist? He got off on a technicality.
khedrei
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Re: Renew Instructor rating to train son

Post by khedrei »

digits_ wrote: Thu Mar 31, 2022 1:56 pm
khedrei wrote: Thu Mar 31, 2022 1:49 pm
photofly wrote: Thu Mar 31, 2022 9:38 am By the time you have a PPL and a night rating, you have enough instrument hours (10) to continue with the rest of the instrument dual time (another 10 hours) needed for an instrument rating with another pilot whose qualifications don’t need to include an instructor rating.
Instrument rating is 40 hours of dual not 20. But I get your point that the 5 from an instructor is already done.
You're pretty brave arguing with photofly over license requirements :D

Here's the standards quote:
b) Experience
An applicant shall have completed a minimum of:

(i) 50 hours of cross-country flight as pilot-in-command in aeroplanes or helicopters of which 10 hours must be in the appropriate category; and
(ii) 40 hours of instrument time of which a maximum of 20 hours may be instrument ground time. The 40 hours instrument time shall include a minimum of:
(A) 5 hours of dual instrument flight time acquired from the holder of a flight instructor rating ,
(B) 5 hours in aeroplanes where the applicant is applying for a Group 1, 2 or 3 instrument rating or in helicopters where the applicant is applying for a Group 4 instrument rating,
(C) Fifteen (15) hours of dual instrument flight time provided by a qualified person as specified in section 425.21(9); and
(amended 1998/03/23)
(D) one dual cross-country flight under simulated or actual IMC conditions of a minimum of 100 nautical miles, the flight to be conducted in accordance with an IFR flight plan to include at, two different locations, an instrument approach to minima.
Only 5 hours dual required from a flight instructor.
I wasn't arguing. I was pointing out an error. But I got the point he was making.
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tsgarp
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Re: Renew Instructor rating to train son

Post by tsgarp »

Depending on how many Class One instructors are around your neck of the woods, it shouldn't be too much of a problem to get you back up to speed as an instructor. A few flights to get you back up to speed on flying the plane, a few PGI's to get you back in the swing of teaching and then a few more flights to get you back in the swing of teaching airborne. Also, a week or so of intense studying to rewrite the written exam. Getting a sample test booklet is the best course of action here. I've worked with a few guys to renew lapsed instructor ratings, and it wasn't to arduous. Main problem for you might be finding a Class One.
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