Pilot unity

[goingmissed]

ALPA and ALPA(C) are very different animals. I would join ALPA in a heartbeat but only on the condition that we were not in any way beholden or associated with ALPA(C). Seat at the head table and roll call voting. Anything less takes us right back to the CALPA debacle circa 1994.

ALPA Canada is Group C of ALPA and only seperate insofar as it lobbies issues in Canada.

Anyway, we had the deal you seek in place in 2018, it was voted and passed by the ALPA executive were Air Canada Pilots to decide to merge.

It included:

- Eligibility for Group A changed to include Canadian airlines and 4000 members or $10million in dues USD or CAD
- AC joins as a Group A carrier (same as United/Delta/Fedex)
- AC elects it's own EVP to the ALPA executive
- ALPA Canada reformed
- Group C no longer elects ALPA Canada President
- Roll call voting at ALPA Canada

I guarantee that deal would be available again.

ACPA is a mess, burn it down.

I'm not sure yet how I feel about some of the changes, but I would love to see ALPA go from the dominant association in the Canadian industry to the primary association. Imagine the progress that would occur.

[Lance rose]

Could you imagine the YUL and YVR reps under the ALPA banner. Definition of Unstoppable.

[rudder]

ALPA Canada is Group C of ALPA and only seperate insofar as it lobbies issues in Canada.

Anyway, we had the deal you seek in place in 2018, it was voted and passed by the ALPA executive were Air Canada Pilots to decide to merge.

It included:

- Eligibility for Group A changed to include Canadian airlines and 4000 members or $10million in dues USD or CAD
- AC joins as a Group A carrier (same as United/Delta/Fedex)
- AC elects it's own EVP to the ALPA executive
- ALPA Canada reformed
- Group C no longer elects ALPA Canada President
- Roll call voting at ALPA Canada

I guarantee that deal would be available again.

ACPA is a mess, burn it down.

I am not so sure that deal still exists in 2022.

ALPA President has changed. ALPA(C) (Group C) has added several significant new member Pilot groups (including Morningstar and Cargojet). Their voices will now be added to any discourse that might arise on this topic which already includes WestJet, WJ Encore, Jazz, and Transat. And if there is a future representation vote for a consolidated WestJet/Sunwing pilot group, I am guessing that ALPA will prevail over Unifor. The aggregate of these groups exceeds the ACPA membership roll.

As usual, the AC pilots want to be told that they are special. They are not. They are simply the single largest pilot group in Canada. That is the sole leverage in any discussions with ALPA that might require Constitutional or Administrative Policy Manual change.

I won’t hold my breath. If the AC pilots are waiting for a golden deal then they may be waiting a long time. In the meantime, I am sure that the ACPA EXEC, senior staff, and AC management will vigorously defend status quo.

[Fanblade]

ALPA a competent union!? An old boys club based in the US maybe. Ask the junior pilots at Jazz, any pilot at WestJet, Encore, KFC, etc. Double the dues and no meaningful support.

That’s nonsense. I’m at WJ. We just surveyed our members and around 85% supported ALPA. I have seen first hand the improvements and successes our union has brought us since we certified. It hasn’t been perfect, but we’re slowly gaining ground and moving forward.

We know.

We have a turbulent time ahead. Just like you guys did. It’s messy. Always will be.

That’s okay simply because it has to be done for the betterment of the group. Some don’t see it? Oh well.

[sportingrifle]

Altiplano...yes you are correct. But my understanding is that the deal never happened because of ALPA(C), which is why I made the 1994 reference.
I lost all respect for ALPA (C) when at the eleventh hour they threw the proposed new and improved flight duty rules under the bus. From a group that at the time didn't collectively operate a single ultra long haul aircraft. Shades of 1994, and problematic as ACPA is, I would rather work within to improve it than descend into the snake pit of ALPA(c). The interests of Dash 8 operators and charter operators are much more divergent than the "we are one big happy family" promoters want to acknowledge. Different needs and goals, different unions to represent those needs and goals.
Now if ALPA wants to initiate the original deal.....that would be promising.

[Fanblade]

The great thing about democracy and a constitution that protects it is that we'll all have our say. If there's a deal offered by ALPA, we'll get to see it, digest it, debate it, and vote on it. Not 5 or 10 MEC members, not a few hundred members on Whatsapp. All 4000 of us. And I'll happily move on from there.

You don’t need to wait for an offer (which will be filtered through the ACPA MEC just like last time). Did you ever get to vote on that one? And wasn’t it the actions of the ACPA MEC that ultimately flushed it down the toilet? Perhaps they knew what the impact of their actions would be. Didn’t matter what the membership wanted or voted on.

Just start an ALPA card campaign. And during the ‘open period’ of your CBA (90 days prior to expiry) file for a representation change with the CIRB.

I have to wonder if ALPA really wants anything to do with the AC pilots. 25 years of infighting, anarchy, and representational dysfunction and counting…

I hear you. Who would want to touch this crazy mess!

Just give us time. A generational shift is happening. Not my generation. The bottom half of the seniority list. And they have their head on straight.

About time by the way.

The transition will be messy. It might take awhile. More elections in the fall. But we will get there.

Just ignore the crazy between now and then.

[Fanblade]

As usual, the AC pilots want to be told that they are special. They are not. They are simply the single largest pilot group in Canada. That is the sole leverage in any discussions with ALPA that might require Constitutional or Administrative Policy Manual change.

I won’t hold my breath. If the AC pilots are waiting for a golden deal then they may be waiting a long time.

Nearly two years of effort has been put into grass roots change at ACPA. The push of that change coming from a different generation. They are NOT my generations problem children. My generations problem children are currently the ones taking temper tantrums over the idea of change. It is my generations problem children who set out to sabotage the last ALPA push.

The new generation wants to be with their peers. Delta, United etc. They don’t want to be “special”. Just equal. At the moment we are the ugly step sister.

If the original deal is gone? So is the idea that AC pilots finally join with the greater pilot community.

That wouldn’t be for the greater good. Joining ALPA C wouldn’t get a yes vote. ALPA C flight duty stance soured any chance of that. It was an up front and personnel view of why we left CALPA in the first place. To be absolutely clear. ALPA C is not an option that can be sold to the membership. The flight duty stance destroyed any chance of it. Yes, it left that large of an impression.

We would need to find an independent direction. And that is a Bad Bad Bad idea. An independent AC pilot group is a danger to itself and the profession as a whole. We have proven it over and over again.

To squander this eventual opportunity for our profession in Canada, is equivalent to blowing all our feet off.

ALPA C will never get the vote

[rudder]

The new generation wants to be with their peers. Delta, United etc. They don’t want to be “special”. Just equal. At the moment we are the ugly step sister.

Of course. The coveted seat at the “big boys” table.

AC pilots are about 1/3rd the size of either the DL or UA Pilot groups and would generate about 20% of the dues revenue compared to either of those groups due to avg member salary and exchange rate.

In ALPA world, the AC pilot group is about the same as JetBlue (with JB pilots contributing more $$).

That doesn’t sound like much leverage to change how ALPA functions, but perhaps North American pilot labour geopolitics will help the AC pilot case for structural change that has existed since CALPA merged with ALPA in 1997.

I hope those discussions take place. I hope that both parties are reasonable in their demands. I hope that both parties carefully assess the consequences of status quo vs representational consolidation. But I don’t hold out much hope that there will be a unified AC pilot group to participate in those discussions.

[Fanblade]

. But I don’t hold out much hope that there will be a unified AC pilot group to participate in those discussions.

Actually I do for the first time in a very long time. I actually see action and progress. Yes that action and progress is running up against resistance.

I’m optimistic for the medium term. Not tomorrow, next week or next month. Might take until further elections. We are going to go through a struggle to get there.

ACPA can’t fight the demographics. Eventually demographics will win. That snowball is rolling and will only pick up speed.

[altiplano]

ALPA Canada is Group C of ALPA and only seperate insofar as it lobbies issues in Canada.

Anyway, we had the deal you seek in place in 2018, it was voted and passed by the ALPA executive were Air Canada Pilots to decide to merge.

It included:

- Eligibility for Group A changed to include Canadian airlines and 4000 members or $10million in dues USD or CAD
- AC joins as a Group A carrier (same as United/Delta/Fedex)
- AC elects it's own EVP to the ALPA executive
- ALPA Canada reformed
- Group C no longer elects ALPA Canada President
- Roll call voting at ALPA Canada

I guarantee that deal would be available again.

ACPA is a mess, burn it down.

I am not so sure that deal still exists in 2022.

ALPA President has changed. ALPA(C) (Group C) has added several significant new member Pilot groups (including Morningstar and Cargojet). Their voices will now be added to any discourse that might arise on this topic which already includes WestJet, WJ Encore, Jazz, and Transat. And if there is a future representation vote for a consolidated WestJet/Sunwing pilot group, I am guessing that ALPA will prevail over Unifor. The aggregate of these groups exceeds the ACPA membership roll.

As usual, the AC pilots want to be told that they are special. They are not. They are simply the single largest pilot group in Canada. That is the sole leverage in any discussions with ALPA that might require Constitutional or Administrative Policy Manual change.

I won’t hold my breath. If the AC pilots are waiting for a golden deal then they may be waiting a long time. In the meantime, I am sure that the ACPA EXEC, senior staff, and AC management will vigorously defend status quo.

Golden ticket?
Special?

Drop the pejoratives.

AC Pilots wouldn't have carried a roll call vote on Canadian issues before, even more so now with the additions you mention. So there's even less risk for Group C airlines not having a say on Canadian issues ie. they outnumber AC by a wider margin.

"the sole leverage in any discussions with ALPA"

No doubt the fact that AC dues would exceed all of existing ALPA Canada dues plays a huge factor, but there is more, mutual advantage for all parties in unity, support for the merger from the largest US member airlines, and the fact the deal existed once and was shelved for counterproductive politic which I understand in hindsight was regretted by the key party involved.

With it without AC Pilots joining, ALPA Canada needs an overhaul for an abundance of reasons, the Group C EVP should be separated from the ALPA Canada office and every other body at ALPA outside of Canada uses roll call voting -executive, Group B, individual airline levels, bases, etc. etc.
Large pilot groups deserve a say proportional to their membership. Every 703/704/small 705 Airline Pilot that finds themselves at a small ALPA carrier should support that as well lest they plan on staying at their small airline for their whole career. Take your voice with you to the regional, to the large airline.

I also think the membership at ALPA Canada will support a merger like we settled previous, but particularly at the large airlines in Canada, WJ, CJ, AT, etc. It benefits them and gives them a larger say proportional to their membership in their group and on Canadian issues. It sets the stage for pattern bargaining and common purpose. It gives Canada a larger say in ALPA HQ. It more than doubles ALPA resources to direct to common Canadian issues.

What's the downside? I'll tell you that it's 100% ego and petty and not for the benefit of the membership or the Union movement. Lost displacements for a few old boys? A couple less trips down south for leadership conventions (and golf/dinner/open bars)? Butt hurt that a Regional Captain isn't at the big table anymore?