FLAIR WARS

[rookiepilot]

https://financialpost.com/transportatio ... 1650579196

A request by the company for a temporary exemption from the ownership rules prompted a furious backlash from the aviation sector this week, and now Flair’s CEO, Stephen Jones, is firing back at the company’s critics.

“These guys have been ripping off the Canadian public for decades,” Jones said in a virtual press conference on April 21. “So don’t be surprised that they get defensive when a company that’s genuinely efficient in providing low-cost airfares comes into the market that’s a threat to their existence.”

[fish4life]

I wish the airlines would be this aggressive towards the government and the airports with their AIF’s, that’s the real people ripping off Canadians.

Even during the most profitable times for WJ and AC they were still making less per passenger than the AIF

[yepivedonethat]

So basically Steve Jones knowingly violated foreign ownership rules to get more birds in the air courtesy of his loan sharking buddies down in Miami. Nice. Now that it's backfiring, like a bleeding heart baby he's whining giving the age old ACA and WJ are ripping people off song and dance.

Nah, nope, not wanted. In a race to the bottom, everyone looses.

[co-joe]

So basically Steve Jones knowingly violated foreign ownership rules to get more birds in the air courtesy of his loan sharking buddies down in Miami. Nice. Now that it's backfiring, like a bleeding heart baby he's whining giving the age old ACA and WJ are ripping people off song and dance.

Nah, nope, not wanted. In a race to the bottom, everyone looses.

Yes in exactly the same way that Westjet knowingly violated the CTA rules when they were purchased by Onex, who's board of directors is comprised of non Canadians who held direct Veto power over decisions effecting a Canadian airline. And in exactly the same way, the CTA gave Onex time to make changes to their board governance to meet CTA rules.

The real story here is that you are afraid that Flair is going to hire 300 Encore pilots (pissed about their lack of actual flow), in the next year so you're blowing a non issue out of proportion to try to scare them into staying. They're already leaving for Lynx, so we can all assume Lynx will be in the Westjet PR machine crosshairs next.

[Fanblade]

So basically Steve Jones knowingly violated foreign ownership rules to get more birds in the air courtesy of his loan sharking buddies down in Miami. Nice. Now that it's backfiring, like a bleeding heart baby he's whining giving the age old ACA and WJ are ripping people off song and dance.

Nah, nope, not wanted. In a race to the bottom, everyone looses.

Yes in exactly the same way that Westjet knowingly violated the CTA rules when they were purchased by Onex, who's board of directors is comprised of non Canadians who held direct Veto power over decisions effecting a Canadian airline. And in exactly the same way, the CTA gave Onex time to make changes to their board governance to meet CTA rules.

You are being misleading

Onex never owned WJ until after they made changes that made the purchase compliant with Canadian ownership rules. Initially Onex was found non compliant and it forced a delay in the purchase until they were.

At no point did WJ operate with an owner that was non compliant with Canadian ownership rules.

Do I think the CTA is going to shutdown Flair? No. They will find a way to become compliant ASAP.

But don’t come up with BS to justify asking for an extension. Flair broke the rules. First they need to become compliant. Next the CTA will issue fines. Then life will go on.

[tbaylx]

So basically Steve Jones knowingly violated foreign ownership rules to get more birds in the air courtesy of his loan sharking buddies down in Miami. Nice. Now that it's backfiring, like a bleeding heart baby he's whining giving the age old ACA and WJ are ripping people off song and dance.

Nah, nope, not wanted. In a race to the bottom, everyone looses.

That is incorrect. Flair did not knowingly violate any rules, CTA, TC or otherwise. As part of a routine review, the CTA identified concerns with a few areas that Flair believed were within the regulations. Flair is now making changes to satisfy the CTA's concerns.

Our competitors attempted to take advantage of that review by sensationalist headlines questioning Flair's ability to continue operating and erode public confidence. Roughly 20% of Canadians had heard of Flair before the media exposure, thanks to ATAC and it's member airlines providing free press that number should now be significantly higher. We appreciate the free advertising and opportunity to further expose the price gouging that occurs in Canada by the duopoly of Westjet and Air Canada.

I believe you'll soon find that Flair will be responsible for raising pilot wages in this country vs your assumption that the ULCCs will further erode pilot compensation.

[Fanblade]

So basically Steve Jones knowingly violated foreign ownership rules to get more birds in the air courtesy of his loan sharking buddies down in Miami. Nice. Now that it's backfiring, like a bleeding heart baby he's whining giving the age old ACA and WJ are ripping people off song and dance.

Nah, nope, not wanted. In a race to the bottom, everyone looses.

That is incorrect. Flair did not knowingly violate any rules, CTA, TC or otherwise. ……..Flair believed were within the regulations. Flair is now making changes to satisfy the CTA's concerns.

Surely you didn’t type that with a straight face.

Flair’s board was 60% US. You have to careful with the BS. You’re portraying Flair management as a lower calibre of mental acuity.

Is that what you want everyone to think? Who would invest in that?

Flair broke the rules. Get in compliance. Take your punishment. Move on

[elonmusk]

So basically Steve Jones knowingly violated foreign ownership rules to get more birds in the air courtesy of his loan sharking buddies down in Miami. Nice. Now that it's backfiring, like a bleeding heart baby he's whining giving the age old ACA and WJ are ripping people off song and dance.

Nah, nope, not wanted. In a race to the bottom, everyone looses.

That is incorrect. Flair did not knowingly violate any rules, CTA, TC or otherwise. As part of a routine review, the CTA identified concerns with a few areas that Flair believed were within the regulations. Flair is now making changes to satisfy the CTA's concerns.

Our competitors attempted to take advantage of that review by sensationalist headlines questioning Flair's ability to continue operating and erode public confidence. Roughly 20% of Canadians had heard of Flair before the media exposure, thanks to ATAC and it's member airlines providing free press that number should now be significantly higher. We appreciate the free advertising and opportunity to further expose the price gouging that occurs in Canada by the duopoly of Westjet and Air Canada.

I believe you'll soon find that Flair will be responsible for raising pilot wages in this country vs your assumption that the ULCCs will further erode pilot compensation.

Good thing you live in a van. Keeps the costs low for you when Flair eventually gets shut down. I heard Air Canada is hiring! But you'd have to be a lowly FO or RP for a number of years.

[elonmusk]

So basically Steve Jones knowingly violated foreign ownership rules to get more birds in the air courtesy of his loan sharking buddies down in Miami. Nice. Now that it's backfiring, like a bleeding heart baby he's whining giving the age old ACA and WJ are ripping people off song and dance.

Nah, nope, not wanted. In a race to the bottom, everyone looses.

That is incorrect. Flair did not knowingly violate any rules, CTA, TC or otherwise. ……..Flair believed were within the regulations. Flair is now making changes to satisfy the CTA's concerns.

Surely you didn’t type that with a straight face.

Flair’s board was 60% US. You have to careful with the BS. You’re portraying Flair management as a lower calibre of mental acuity.

Is that what you want everyone to think? Who would invest in that?

Flair broke the rules. Get in compliance. Take your punishment. Move on

Exactly. People in the industry have been questioning Flair's ownership for a long time. I recall the first time someone I knew brought it up was over a year ago.

[pelmet]

So basically Steve Jones knowingly violated foreign ownership rules to get more birds in the air courtesy of his loan sharking buddies down in Miami. Nice. Now that it's backfiring, like a bleeding heart baby he's whining giving the age old ACA and WJ are ripping people off song and dance.

Nah, nope, not wanted. In a race to the bottom, everyone looses.

How about the paying passenger. Try booking AC on a flight where you want to book just a couple of days before the flight because of the variables of life or perhaps, the weather preferences where you are going. It is about ten times more expensive that if you had booked a few months back. Meanwhile, WJ prices tend to miraculously be the same. When I go to the store just before Christmas, I don't see them raising the prices as Christmas gets closer. No sympathy for the established airlines. How about a steady price. Won't do it and coming up with excuses. I'll support Flair, even if they will do the same thing. At least it is at a lower price.

[J31]

So basically Steve Jones knowingly violated foreign ownership rules to get more birds in the air courtesy of his loan sharking buddies down in Miami. Nice. Now that it's backfiring, like a bleeding heart baby he's whining giving the age old ACA and WJ are ripping people off song and dance.

Nah, nope, not wanted. In a race to the bottom, everyone looses.

How about the paying passenger. Try booking AC on a flight where you want to book just a couple of days before the flight because of the variables of life or perhaps, the weather preferences where you are going. It is about ten times more expensive that if you had booked a few months back. Meanwhile, WJ prices tend to miraculously be the same. When I go to the store just before Christmas, I don't see them raising the prices as Christmas gets closer. No sympathy for the established airlines. How about a steady price. Won't do it and coming up with excuses. I'll support Flair, even if they will do the same thing. At least it is at a lower price.

Not a good comparison. Do all unsold goods spoil to $0 when the store closes for the night? No, but all unsold seats on a flight spoil to $0 as soon as the door is closed for departure.

Like it or not, flight seats are priced due to yield management by airlines over the entire world.

Competition is good. However they need to all follow the same rules.

[Dias]

I believe you'll soon find that Flair will be responsible for raising pilot wages in this country vs your assumption that the ULCCs will further erode pilot compensation.

I believe you'll be applying at Canadian Jetlines before the end of the year.

[Boeingman]

I believe you'll soon find that Flair will be responsible for raising pilot wages in this country vs your assumption that the ULCCs will further erode pilot compensation.

I believe you'll be applying at Canadian Jetlines before the end of the year.

Man you guys really drank the Teal and Red koolaid. It’s sad to see brainwashed Canadian pilots fighting to get paid less.

I hear Swoop will be paying competitively in line with Flairs pay in the next CBA.

[elonmusk]

I believe you'll soon find that Flair will be responsible for raising pilot wages in this country vs your assumption that the ULCCs will further erode pilot compensation.

I believe you'll be applying at Canadian Jetlines before the end of the year.

Man you guys really drank the Teal and Red koolaid. It’s sad to see brainwashed Canadian pilots fighting to get paid less.

I hear Swoop will be paying competitively in line with Flairs pay in the next CBA.

Did you just refer to Flair and Swoop pay as "competitive"?

Lol. We're not the ones brainwashed. We just don't want shitty ulcc airlines dragging down wages more than they already are.

[goingmissed]

I believe you'll be applying at Canadian Jetlines before the end of the year.

Man you guys really drank the Teal and Red koolaid. It’s sad to see brainwashed Canadian pilots fighting to get paid less.

I hear Swoop will be paying competitively in line with Flairs pay in the next CBA.

Did you just refer to Flair and Swoop pay as "competitive"?

Lol. We're not the ones brainwashed. We just don't want shitty ulcc airlines dragging down wages more than they already are.

Don't be selfish... if you're not working two jobs, you're not really an airline pilot.

[Boeingman]

I believe you'll be applying at Canadian Jetlines before the end of the year.

Man you guys really drank the Teal and Red koolaid. It’s sad to see brainwashed Canadian pilots fighting to get paid less.

I hear Swoop will be paying competitively in line with Flairs pay in the next CBA.

Did you just refer to Flair and Swoop pay as "competitive"?

Lol. We're not the ones brainwashed. We just don't want shitty ulcc airlines dragging down wages more than they already are.

I mean mainline isn’t really setting the bar that high either. We just don’t want shitty legacy carriers dragging down wages more than they already are.

[elonmusk]

Agreed. We all suck, but at least AC/WJ suck less.

[Boeingman]

Agreed. We all suck, but at least AC/WJ suck less.

I can agree to that

[GRK2]

Wow...how about you clean up your own backyards before you crap all over other pilots simply trying to make a living? Do you not see what the constant degradation of your own industry by you and your ilk looks like? (Probably not, your glasses are tinted the wrong colours...)

[Tbayer2021]

Wow...how about you clean up your own backyards before you crap all over other pilots simply trying to make a living? Do you not see what the constant degradation of your own industry by you and your ilk looks like? (Probably not, your glasses are tinted the wrong colours...)

Gotta love the hypocrisy, eh? They claim they don't want to see anyone "dragging down wages more than they already are", yet they themselves voted for less pay on the only profitable side of the company throughout covid.

Are you guys ready for that 777F at AC being flown for less money? Because thats exactly whats going to happen. That LOU lets the company proceed directly to arbitration if the pilots don't agree on anything when bringing a new type into it.

I guess making less money for the same job is only justifiable when they do it. After all, they're at the NHL of airlines.

Pot, meet kettle.

[Localizer]

Pilots shitting on pilots … we all have bills to pay, we all need jobs. We seriously need to stop directing our frustrations towards our peers and channel our effort in the proper direction. I mentioned in one of the AC threads that if you truly want to get the Canadian industry on track, we need everyone on the same page. We need one union and pattern bargain like the Americans, that’s how you raise all wawcon.

If you wanna be pissed at Flair .. be pissed at Flair, not Flair pilots, in turn Flair pilots .. don’t get into pissing matches with other pilots about executive level affairs .. there’s no point.

So AC pilots … all aboard the ALPA train!

[altiplano]

I think probably people have reason to be pissed at Flair cheerleader#1... aside from that though I agree with Loc's voice of reason.

We need to replicate what our counterparts to the south have been doing where everyone - Legacy, LCC, ULCC, Cargo, Regional - are making bank hand over fist. Time to take this profession back from the MBA psychopaths in the head offices and we all need to be supporting each other to get there.

[Fanblade]

Wow...how about you clean up your own backyards before you crap all over other pilots simply trying to make a living? Do you not see what the constant degradation of your own industry by you and your ilk looks like? (Probably not, your glasses are tinted the wrong colours...)

Gotta love the hypocrisy, eh? They claim they don't want to see anyone "dragging down wages more than they already are", yet they themselves voted for less pay on the only profitable side of the company throughout covid.

Are you guys ready for that 777F at AC being flown for less money? Because thats exactly whats going to happen. That LOU lets the company proceed directly to arbitration if the pilots don't agree on anything when bringing a new type into it.

I guess making less money for the same job is only justifiable when they do it. After all, they're at the NHL of airlines.

Pot, meet kettle.

Guilty as charged. We have helped FUBAR the aviation industries WAWCON in Canada for a decade now. And you are also correct. The SOB’s who brought us that language also tied us into an arbitrated resolution if another type is added.

You forgot to mention that Rouge probably led to swoop.

With that said. Believe it or not things are changing. Slowly. It’s tough wrestling a union away from managements bed.

Localizer.

Bang on.

All on the same page

[FltOpsVR]

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