Captains of the North, what make you stay?

[altiplano]

If the Northern guy is making 2.5 flat pay, then during the first 4 year of flat pay, he would miss out on, roughly:
Year 1: 150k - 60k = 90k
Year 2: 150k - 65k = 85k
Year 3: 150k - 70k = 80k
Year 4: 150k - 80k = 70k
(that's estimates based on info in other topics, might be wrong)

That's a total of 325k in 4 years. Even after taxes, that's enough for a down payment on a decent sized house. Maybe even a full house itself up north.

Then when you go to formula pay, avcanada wisdom seems to claim the pay would be somewhat comparable the next 4 years. But then you still need to compensate for those 325k that you've lost in the first 4 years.

So likely about 12 years before you break even, maybe more. And after that you might get the 200k+ benefits of a major airline, if the company doesn't go bust.

In Toronto, that would also mean you likely won't be able to buy a house for another 10 years. Whereas the northern captain likely already owns his house.

I think you have some good estimates in there.

But a few points for clarity, the fixed rate approximations you post are minimum guarantees based on 75 hours, reality is more for most, for motivated people playing the game it can be much more, plus pension has a significant value, plus benefits/disability have a significant value. Never mind if you upgrade... Now you're making $200K+ in a hurry...

Anyway, not trashing on anyone's choices, if I could live and work exactly where I wanted at a place that afforded me the work/life balance I went into this all for, and make $150K+, and have a few toys and nice place... I wouldn't leave either.

[JeppsOnFire]

Running with digits' numbers:

Some interesting math.

Take that $325k you missed out on and pay off your student loan (say $25k) and invest the rest. Let's say age 30 should be about right. Summon your inner Mr. Miyagi and have the discipline to leave it invested.
Continue as you were with your job and income and start saving for a house. Buy said house in 3 years. Pay it off in 17. Now you're 50 with a paid for house. Life seems pretty good, financially at least.
But don't forget you've had a decent income, possibly with a partner and have been saving, let's say together, $1200 per month in a company matched RRSP. You could increase your investments after 50 because of the paid for house - but let's assume you just piss away the money on boats and a condo in Florida. Pretty reasonable to hit all the targets mentioned.
Since you love your job and it's not very taxing, you decide to work until 65.

Looks like you've been able to live a successful life by anyone's standards.

The markets have averaged a 10.5% return over the last 70 years. I'll just use that number for fun - YMMV.
At retirement, your consistent monthly RRSP match has grown to $4.5M - using the accepted rule of 4% withdrawal on your income it will generate $180k per year taxable ( I won't get into tax strategies here). That's not bad. With inflation that might amount to only $100k in todays dollars. Not so great compared to an AC DB pension.

Wait! There's more!
We forgot about the original investment. $300k invested at 10.5% return we'll keep invested until 67 yrs old (because we already have $4.5m in fairly liquid funds - I'd probably keep it longer unless I wanted to purchase something terribly expensive RFN) has now become a hair under $17M dollars.
Using the 4% withdrawal rule - with that income and your other income - you're now taking in $840k per year without ever touching the principle. If you were weird and just lived on the $180k per year from your matched RRSP plan, your other investment would continue to grow. When you finally die at age 90, you have $79m to leave your good for nothing kids. Side note - DB Pension dies with you with the exception of the survivor benefit. You are not entitled to the multi million dollar value of your pension - you are only entitled to the monthly payment (which you have to take in full and will be hammered with taxes).

All that to say - compound interest (8th wonder of the world) started early beats big pay late in life all day every day and twice on Sunday.

**yes this is simple math and past returns do not guarantee future returns and also I might be partially or completely wrong on the above**

[co-joe]

Now factor in that you probably aren't getting hired OTS and have to live on Jazz pay for 4 years before getting the privilege of AC flat pay.

[dhc#]

Now factor in that you probably aren't getting hired OTS and have to live on Jazz pay for 4 years before getting the privilege of AC flat pay.

And though its an unknown variable, how could or should one factor in the next recession/economic downturn/pandemic...any of these could stunt earning potential for years... just look at the earnings so many lost due to being laid off during the pandemic. Northern/Arctic, medivacs and cargo ops all survived some even thrived during the pandemic while airlines laid off thousands.

[YC87DRVR]

From my experience the majority of the northern lifers stay for many reasons, and most of the time it’s not financial and not by choice.

[co-joe]

Now factor in that you probably aren't getting hired OTS and have to live on Jazz pay for 4 years before getting the privilege of AC flat pay.

And though its an unknown variable, how could or should one factor in the next recession/economic downturn/pandemic...any of these could stunt earning potential for years... just look at the earnings so many lost due to being laid off during the pandemic. Northern/Arctic, medivacs and cargo ops all survived some even thrived during the pandemic while airlines laid off thousands.

That's a tough question to answer. Obviously having turbine multi pic in your log book means if you get laid off and have to go back to 703/4 you can go as a captain, but when you get to the regionals or the big show, seniority means you get rehired sooner or have less chance of being laid off. If Ac is your dream then you kind of have to take that plunge, and if Jazz calls first, take the financial hit and do it. But there are a few people that find what they're looking for out of life in the least likely town up north along the way.

Compare years of juniority at AC in YYZ, vs being on call 15 days a month but only flying 10 of them in a smaller town where life is simple, people are nice, real estate is affordable, you use a tank of gas ever 3 weeks, and you can afford a boat/ RV/ quad/ dirtbike, and have the time to play with them. I've met or worked with quite a few people in YLB, YWM, YQU, YZH, YPE, YMM, who found all they were looking for and never left. Those aren't exactly "up north" by some standards, but they're not the big city either.

[goingnowherefast]

From my experience the majority of the northern lifers stay for many reasons, and most of the time it’s not financial and not by choice.

My experience has been the opposite. Many northern lifers I know never even applied to southern airlines. They stay for the lifestyle the north offers. That lifestyle doesn't appeal to everyone, so go to where makes you happy. We're all different.

[Float_lover]

As many said, it's the lifestyle.

I'm in the bush after 2 streets corner, perfect for ski-doo and moto-cross. Hunting and fishing are good and close.
The word stress doesn't exist, you're 10-15 minutes late on your flight or anywhere? Well, no one cares. But it will be the same for your passengers

[flyingcanuck]

Sometimes I consider moving up north or commuting for the lifestyle.. commuting just wastes so much time and money. But man the northern lifestyle works for me. Don't like being stuck within 2 hours of YYZ

[Col. Panic]

8E2FECDD-4FD8-4E5C-B825-A7CB1C927E31.jpeg (1.1 MiB) Viewed 1885 times

[goldeneagle]

8E2FECDD-4FD8-4E5C-B825-A7CB1C927E31.jpeg

Another city boy confusing winterpeg with 'up north'.

[Otto Pilot]

In my personal experience it's more so guy's and gal's just getting comfortable with where they are. (Meet someone up north, have a kid, buy the house and all the toys to go along with it). Also a lot of companies are now paying decent to keep Caps around. Pair that with a decent schedule and people are going to stay, not everyone's cup of pee but it is what it is.

[Col. Panic]

8E2FECDD-4FD8-4E5C-B825-A7CB1C927E31.jpeg

Another city boy confusing winterpeg with 'up north'.

Sorry... I didn't make the meme; and they didn't have the equivalent for Gjoa Haven!

[Redneck_pilot86]

People in the south.

[Redneck_pilot86]

Yup, I'll earn less where I am than at AC over my career, I've accepted that.

It also means I average 9 days of work a month, I'll be mortgage free before I'm 40, my commute to work is 7 minutes by car, 16 by mountain bike. I have a comfortable retirement setup, and to be honest, I just love my life and I'm very happy. I've worked over seas, made the big tax free bucks, but it turns out, money (passed a certain amount) doesn't make me more happy. My life outside of work does. And that's why I stay in the north.

*past

[porcsord]

People in the south.

*of