Flat pay and unions...

[altiplano]

Also, I see you're tongue in cheek... but statements like that catch on and people come to accept them.

[rudder]

Yr 1 A380 Capt is a very theoretical position. I highly doubt there are any wide body captains at UAL who are not at the 12 years of service pay level. Not to mention, I don’t recall seeing too many 380s in their fleet.

The 380 rate is a ‘place setter’ rate just like the CRJ900 rate. UAL will never operate either (at mainline).

Add in a rumoured increase to 19% company contribution to 401k (pilot contributes nil) and POS space commuting, what you have is a representation of a company that understands it will have to compete to attract and retain a diminishing resource (qualified pilots).

Go figure.

[schnitzel2k3]

Also, I see you're tongue in cheek... but statements like that catch on and people come to accept them.

Rog!

[lee123]

And then just wait what Delta comes up with to one up United.

[rudder]

And then just wait what Delta comes up with to one up United.

Just stick with ACPA.

I am sure that their skilled bargainers and crafty ‘CEO’ will figure out a way to make sure that the AC pilots are making just 1/2 of what the UA/AA/DL pilots are making.

[Fanblade]

And then just wait what Delta comes up with to one up United.

Just stick with ACPA.

I am sure that their skilled bargainers and crafty ‘CEO’ will figure out a way to make sure that the AC pilots are making just 1/2 of what the UA/AA/DL pilots are making.

I’m sure you are correct. I had an elected rep, currently under recall, tell me we really have to help the company recover right now and work with them to that end. The flight attendants are being a problem. We need to be leaders and can do employees. Not problem children asking for anything. Just be happy with what we have.

I think he was referring to the FA’s all up in arms over wanting to get paid for waiting on board while waiting for customs.

Those FA’s. Can you imagine? Wanting to be fairly compensated for their work? Ridiculous.

We will never claw back our wages so long as quasi management is negotiating on our behalf. People who, for some reason, have placed the companies wants above those of the pilots.

[rudder]

And then just wait what Delta comes up with to one up United.

Just stick with ACPA.

I am sure that their skilled bargainers and crafty ‘CEO’ will figure out a way to make sure that the AC pilots are making just 1/2 of what the UA/AA/DL pilots are making.

I’m sure you are correct. I had an elected rep, currently under recall, tell me we really have to help the company recover right now and work with them to that end. The flight attendants are being a problem. We need to be leaders and can do employees. Not problem children asking for anything. Just be happy with what we have.

I think he was referring to the FA’s all up in arms over wanting to get paid for waiting on board while waiting for customs.

Those FA’s. Can you imagine? Wanting to be fairly compensated for their work? Ridiculous.

We will never claw back our wages so long as quasi management is negotiating on our behalf. People who, for some reason, have placed the companies wants above those of the pilots.

Here is a newsflash for the ACPA headshed - AC is not at risk of CCAA. Just take a look at the financials and cash on hand.

[Fanblade]

This has been floating around flight decks for a few weeks now. I can’t speak to how accurate it is. But I choked when I looked at it.

It looks like ACPA is starting to lose control of messaging and the membership is going around them.

[alkaseltzer]

[quote=WellThatAgedWell post_id=<a href="tel:1195459">1195459</a> time=<a href="tel:1653057460">1653057460</a> user_id=82724]
Sorry to say it, but when you turn on the news I see a really good case for Air Canada to approach the pilots for a 10 percent pay cut. Jet fuel prices are up significantly eating into profitability. It’s not as simple as just raising prices as the new LCCs will fly people anywhere in Canada for under 250 RT. Gotta keep up with the times people!

But a really good idea might be that everyone there today votes for no pay cut, however change things so all new hires get a 6 year fixed flat pay. Maybe eliminate any pension for them also… ah what the hell let’s make this more simple, just take the rouge FA contract and hand that to the new pilots and say here’s what you get. This way the current pilots can at least keep what they have for now.

Meanwhile the UAL pilots get a 20% pay raise on already huge pay rates……

What is their net take home? After medical insurance, other costly programs in the USA. How much is car insurance? Municipal taxes as percentage of house value? Cost to send kids to a good primary and secondary school?

I believe medical insurance is completely covered by United. Tax rates are also a lot lower in the states especially if you live in a state that doesn’t charge income tax. Also don’t forget the 25% to 30% increase just on the exchange rate. Plus positive space commuting you can live out in the sticks and buy a house for a fraction of YYZ or YVR even YUL.
[/quote]

Thank you. Any word on if pensions get mismanaged, what are the repercussions (lots of United guys lost out during 2000s). What about surviving spouse and remainder of pension? Travel benefits for family? What’s their version of GDIP?

Canada’s economy is contracting and November, the US Senate may oust Biden if it turns all red…will be very interesting to see.

[rudder]

This has been floating around flight decks for a few weeks now. I can’t speak to how accurate it is. But I choked when I looked at it.

It looks like ACPA is starting to lose control of messaging and the membership is going around them.

Not accounting for currency adjustment (which is normal), those 2022 rates appear to be what will exist at UA/AA/DL following bargaining updates.

Don’t forget 16.5-19% company contribution to pilot retirement account.

When does the ACPA CBA expire? If I was the employer, I would offer to go in to ‘early bargaining’ with a trade off of improving compensation (significantly) in exchange for a contract term extension.

[Fanblade]

This has been floating around flight decks for a few weeks now. I can’t speak to how accurate it is. But I choked when I looked at it.

It looks like ACPA is starting to lose control of messaging and the membership is going around them.

Not accounting for currency adjustment (which is normal), those 2022 rates appear to be what will exist at UA/AA/DL following bargaining updates.

Don’t forget 16.5-19% company contribution to pilot retirement account.

The thing is those rates are simply 2003 inflation adjusted to today. You don’t need to compare to the US. You just have to compare us today vs 2003 to see the performance failure at ACPA.

Then comparing those inflation adjusted rates to the US makes perfect sense. It all adds up. They clawed back their pre bankruptcy wages. We didn’t

[rudder]

The thing is those rates are simply 2003 inflation adjusted to today. You don’t need to compare to the US. You just have to compare us today vs 2003 to see the performance failure.

Agreed. But you cannot ignore the reality of the bankruptcy/avoid bankruptcy era and the impact on pay rates at all of the North American Majors.

Even the US carriers have not/will not recover to inflation adjusted pre-restructuring pay rates. But the benchmark pay rates for 2022 and beyond are being established, at least south of the border.

[Fanblade]

When does the ACPA CBA expire? If I was the employer, I would offer to go in to ‘early bargaining’ with a trade off of improving compensation (significantly) in exchange for a contract term extension.

I don’t think AC has any intention of increasing pay. But that is just my gut. You are right that they may see a benefit of giving a pay increase early that they are going to have to give eventually anyway.

10 year agreement ends fall of 2024. There is an opener fall 2023. The 10 year agreement is dependent on a fleet guarantee which currently AC does not meet. So the 10 year agreement could end in 18 month.

[Fanblade]

The thing is those rates are simply 2003 inflation adjusted to today. You don’t need to compare to the US. You just have to compare us today vs 2003 to see the performance failure.

Agreed. But you cannot ignore the reality of the bankruptcy/avoid bankruptcy era and the impact on pay rates at all of the North American Majors.

Even the US carriers have not/will not recover to inflation adjusted pre-restructuring pay rates. But the benchmark pay rates for 2022 and beyond are being established, at least south of the border.

True we were always slightly behind our US counterparts. But only by a little.

I suppose it would have been more accurate to say US carriers clawed back a large part of their bankruptcy loses. We clawed back none. We actually continued to give pay cuts.

One of those pay cuts is what this thread is based on. The further cuts we gave to starting wages in 2012

[rudder]

When does the ACPA CBA expire? If I was the employer, I would offer to go in to ‘early bargaining’ with a trade off of improving compensation (significantly) in exchange for a contract term extension.

I don’t think AC has any intention of increasing pay. But that is just my gut. You are right that they may see a benefit of giving a pay increase early that they are going to have to give eventually anyway.

10 year agreement ends fall of 2024. There is an opener fall 2023. The 10 year agreement is dependent on a fleet guarantee which currently AC does not meet. So the 10 year agreement could end in 18 month.

Well, it will either follow the Forrest Gump path (which has been most of the last 12 years) or a path based on current reality and the future.

Will be interesting to see which path the parties choose. The CR era is over, other than the CBA term hangover. Time for MR to put his own stamp on AC. And the AC pilots need to make circa 2022 choices as well.

[Fanblade]

When does the ACPA CBA expire? If I was the employer, I would offer to go in to ‘early bargaining’ with a trade off of improving compensation (significantly) in exchange for a contract term extension.

I don’t think AC has any intention of increasing pay. But that is just my gut. You are right that they may see a benefit of giving a pay increase early that they are going to have to give eventually anyway.

10 year agreement ends fall of 2024. There is an opener fall 2023. The 10 year agreement is dependent on a fleet guarantee which currently AC does not meet. So the 10 year agreement could end in 18 month.

Well, it will either follow the Forrest Gump path (which has been most of the last 12 years) or a path based on current reality and the future.

Will be interesting to see which path the parties choose. The CR era is over, other than the CBA term hangover. Time for MR to put his own stamp on AC. And the AC pilots need to make circa 2022 choices as well.

Agreed.

Hence the current raging battle between the ACPA old guard and those that think another box of chocolates will not be acceptable.

[BingBong]

10 year agreement ends fall of 2024. There is an opener fall 2023. The 10 year agreement is dependent on a fleet guarantee which currently AC does not meet. So the 10 year agreement could end in 18 month.

The idiots who support status quo would wave this clause in a heartbeat to make things easier on the corp.

[Fanblade]

10 year agreement ends fall of 2024. There is an opener fall 2023. The 10 year agreement is dependent on a fleet guarantee which currently AC does not meet. So the 10 year agreement could end in 18 month.

The idiots who support status quo would wave this clause in a heartbeat to make things easier on the corp.

That would lock in a 2% raise with inflation at 6%.

That is tantamount to agreeing to a pay cut when we are already 20-30% behind our wages from 2003.

So long as the balance on the MEC doesn’t flow back the other way after this falls elections I doubt the fleet guarantee will get waved. I just don’t see how anyone agrees to a pay increase below inflation if you don’t have to.

Unless as Rudder points out the corp offers a substantial raise. Personally I doubt they will do that. I think AC pilots will have to be prepared to fight for any gains. I think things are about to swing back into labor unrest at AC.

[rudder]

Unless as Rudder points out the corp offers a substantial raise. Personally I doubt they will do that. I think AC pilots will have to be prepared to fight for any gains. I think things are about to swing back into labor unrest at AC.

If AC and Jazz want to be successful in winning the pilot recruitment and retention war, then they both need to stop resting on the laurels of de facto CBA concessions achieved in the pilot contracts from CCAA, the recession, and the Federal Minister of Labour. Dancing on somebodies grave is no way to build a good relationship.

CR demonstrated that a long view which focuses on ‘getting even’ vs ‘getting mad’ yields the best results. It is time for pilot labour to adopt that same strategy.

There is no need to bend over. Quite the opposite. Time to throw concessionary CBA provisions to the scrap heap and re-establish proper benchmarks for the top tier in the industry.

[RippleRock]

Unless as Rudder points out the corp offers a substantial raise. Personally I doubt they will do that. I think AC pilots will have to be prepared to fight for any gains. I think things are about to swing back into labor unrest at AC.

If AC and Jazz want to be successful in winning the pilot recruitment and retention war, then they both need to stop resting on the laurels of de facto CBA concessions achieved in the pilot contracts from CCAA, the recession, and the Federal Minister of Labour. Dancing on somebodies grave is no way to build a good relationship.

CR demonstrated that a long view which focuses on ‘getting even’ vs ‘getting mad’ yields the best results. It is time for pilot labour to adopt that same strategy.

There is no need to bend over. Quite the opposite. Time to throw concessionary CBA provisions to the scrap heap and re-establish proper benchmarks for the top tier in the industry.

That's a tall order. The Membership is still largely asleep.

I wish the younger generation would make a serious attempt to "right the ship". I'm disappointed with how many 1-5 year FO's I fly with that have "no clue" what ACPA's mandate is.

Nothing will happen until the swamp is drained.

FWIW, I forsee a new "offer" to buy Transat if the Membership makes any attempt swing toward ALPA. Watch.

[rudder]

FWIW, I forsee a new "offer" to buy Transat if the Membership makes any attempt swing toward ALPA. Watch.

I would be sceptical of that.

The only reason for AC to buy TRZ circa 2022 would be to take out competition/prevent commercial association with WJ, and source some pilot labour.

And the EU concerns are still the same. AC would have to forfeit some transatlantic capacity in the merged entity. I would suggest this outcome is unlikely.

[Fanblade]

Unless as Rudder points out the corp offers a substantial raise. Personally I doubt they will do that. I think AC pilots will have to be prepared to fight for any gains. I think things are about to swing back into labor unrest at AC.

If AC and Jazz want to be successful in winning the pilot recruitment and retention war, then they both need to stop resting on the laurels of de facto CBA concessions achieved in the pilot contracts from CCAA, the recession, and the Federal Minister of Labour. Dancing on somebodies grave is no way to build a good relationship.

CR demonstrated that a long view which focuses on ‘getting even’ vs ‘getting mad’ yields the best results. It is time for pilot labour to adopt that same strategy.

There is no need to bend over. Quite the opposite. Time to throw concessionary CBA provisions to the scrap heap and re-establish proper benchmarks for the top tier in the industry.

That's a tall order. The Membership is still largely asleep.

I wish the younger generation would make a serious attempt to "right the ship". I'm disappointed with how many 1-5 year FO's I fly with that have "no clue" what ACPA's mandate is.

Who do you think is behind all this push for change? It’s not all, but by in large, it’s the next generation. Not so much those in their 20’s. It’s that experienced group in their mid to late 30’s. They have been at AC 5-15 years. They have previous union experience.

More important. They are unionists rather than quasi management.

They lead? I’ll follow.

[walkabout]

The U.S. is facing its worst pilot shortage ever forcing airlines to cut flights and growth plans

https://www.aviationweekly.org/news/pilot-shortage

United CEO Scott Kirby said on the airline’s Q1 earnings call: “The pilot shortage for the industry is real, and most airlines are simply not going to be able to realize their capacity plans because there simply aren’t enough pilots, at least not for the next five-plus years,”

United has said that they have approximately 150 aircraft grounded because of the shortage.

[Fanblade]

Unless as Rudder points out the corp offers a substantial raise. Personally I doubt they will do that. I think AC pilots will have to be prepared to fight for any gains. I think things are about to swing back into labor unrest at AC.

If AC and Jazz want to be successful in winning the pilot recruitment and retention war, then they both need to stop resting on the laurels of de facto CBA concessions achieved in the pilot contracts from CCAA, the recession, and the Federal Minister of Labour. Dancing on somebodies grave is no way to build a good relationship.

CR demonstrated that a long view which focuses on ‘getting even’ vs ‘getting mad’ yields the best results. It is time for pilot labour to adopt that same strategy.

There is no need to bend over. Quite the opposite. Time to throw concessionary CBA provisions to the scrap heap and re-establish proper benchmarks for the top tier in the industry.

We still have some elected reps (5) talking from the point of view of zero cost bargaining. They don’t always say it that way, but the theme is the same.

Membership. We would like XYZ. The 5. What are you willing to trade for that?

Membership. ENOUGH ALREADY with this “gains are off the table” BS!

But I completely agree with you.

[rudder]

Who do you think is behind all this push for change? It’s not all, but by in large, it’s the next generation. Not so much those in their 20’s. It’s that experienced group in their mid to late 30’s. They have been at AC 5-15 years. They have previous union experience.

From the outside looking in, it has always seemed there were 2 (or 3) AC pilot silos. WB. NB. Then Rouge.

WB has generally done quite well. NB not so much. And then there was the Rouge ‘experiment’.

If there is disenchantment with status quo, it most likely emanates from the NB group or those stuck on flat pay (the year 1-15 pilots).

Most Pilot groups follow the agenda of the majority of the constituents. Who are the majority?