PreBuy

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Rich3791
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PreBuy

Post by Rich3791 »

Hello all,

I've done some searching but have not really found what I'm looking for. I find Google is not much help either in sourcing AME's for doing a prebuy. It seems you need to know someone to ask for a referral but when I'm looking at something in AB and I live in Eastern ON not sure word of mouth travels that far.

Is there a resource to look up and contact AME's in different areas of the country?
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digits_
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Re: PreBuy

Post by digits_ »

Easiest way I found is just to call around at the airports close to where the plane is located and find an AME who is not currently working on the plane. Ask them if they are familiar with the airplane type and if they would want to do a pre buy on the plane.

It is very impractical and expensive to get expert AME A from province B to check out airplane C.
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As an AvCanada discussion grows longer:
-the probability of 'entitlement' being mentioned, approaches 1
-one will be accused of using bad airmanship
edmanster
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Re: PreBuy

Post by edmanster »

Cost effective (cheapest) PreBuy is not recommended. Presently dealing with an aircraft that was imported; recent annual inspection discovered a previous Gearup landing with significant structural issues that were never rectified. Very painful & expensive decisions to be made. Prebuy not only involves mechanical issues - but structural as well. More experience then just a rookie AME- non structures might have. Previous history & major repairs to be scrutinized. Pay me now or pay me later.
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digits_
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Re: PreBuy

Post by digits_ »

edmanster wrote: Mon Mar 21, 2022 7:25 am Cost effective (cheapest) PreBuy is not recommended. Presently dealing with an aircraft that was imported; recent annual inspection discovered a previous Gearup landing with significant structural issues that were never rectified. Very painful & expensive decisions to be made. Prebuy not only involves mechanical issues - but structural as well. More experience then just a rookie AME- non structures might have. Previous history & major repairs to be scrutinized. Pay me now or pay me later.
The irony is that it's usually the new-to-the-industry 'rookie' AMEs building up a client base that are willing to travel. Not the expert established ones running an AMO...
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As an AvCanada discussion grows longer:
-the probability of 'entitlement' being mentioned, approaches 1
-one will be accused of using bad airmanship
Rich3791
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Re: PreBuy

Post by Rich3791 »

edmanster wrote: Mon Mar 21, 2022 7:25 am Cost effective (cheapest) PreBuy is not recommended. Presently dealing with an aircraft that was imported; recent annual inspection discovered a previous Gearup landing with significant structural issues that were never rectified. Very painful & expensive decisions to be made. Prebuy not only involves mechanical issues - but structural as well. More experience then just a rookie AME- non structures might have. Previous history & major repairs to be scrutinized. Pay me now or pay me later.
All due respect, I didn't ask for cheapest I simply asked how to source the contacts to have a discussion with them to then choose someone to do it.

If I need a auto mechanic they're mostly listed (not all) when I search for auto mechanic, NOT the case with an aircraft mechanic.
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PilotDAR
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Re: PreBuy

Post by PilotDAR »

I support the notion that a prebuy should be really indepth. It should really be about an annual inspection, other than replacing things. When I have done them, I have used the annual inspection checklist for the type, and looked for hidden/repaired damage. A few clients have, over the years, contacted me for repair approvals for major repairs later found to have been done [poorly] for which there was no logbook entry. A type familiar inspector would have found the repairs or damage.

So... consider paying an AME to actually sign the plane out for an annual inspection for you, should you buy it, that will cause them to think about the service they will provide for you.

As to how to find a person, it really does come down to word of mouth. A more junior AME can do a fine PPI, if you brief them as to what you're looking for (the equivalent of an annual inspection signout), and assure that they are using a suitable checklist, which will be completed with comments and photos for you. If you have a local AME you trust, it may be worth paying them to travel if they're willing, and the value of the plane is sufficient to make the great cost proportionate.
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sunk
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Re: PreBuy

Post by sunk »

I have sent an engineer across country as I’m familiar with his work. Sure you pay a lot more, but it has saved me in the long run.
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Bede
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Re: PreBuy

Post by Bede »

PilotDAR wrote: Mon Mar 21, 2022 4:15 pm I support the notion that a prebuy should be really indepth. It should really be about an annual inspection, other than replacing things.
An annual (CAR 625 App B) is a pretty bare bones inspection IMO. When I purchased a plane for commercial operations, it was the 200 hr + AD's + S/B's + out of phase. That way when it was put on the OC, it was ready to work right away. Yes it's a long and expensive inspection, but better find defects now... In the contract of sale I always state that buyer pays for inspection, seller pays for repairs (especially if they warrant that there are no defects).
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groncher
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Re: PreBuy

Post by groncher »

To try and answer the OP question...

You can search AMOs on TC website using various filters. It won't give you private AMEs but its a start.

https://wwwapps.tc.gc.ca/saf-sec-sur/2/ ... ture=en-CA

You could also try contacting the AME association for the relevant region to see if they can help.
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PilotDAR
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Re: PreBuy

Post by PilotDAR »

An annual (CAR 625 App B) is a pretty bare bones inspection IMO
An inspection carried out on a small airplane IAW CAR 605.86 & AWM 625, appendix B, and presumed to be an "annual" inspection, is required to be done IAW a "checklist", which must be appropriate to the type, include AD's and ICA's for mods, and generally call up the airplane manufacturer's inspection checklist and standard industry practice (AC34.13). If you've done all of that on a PPI you've had a pretty good look at the plane. Nothing prevents (and I certainly have done) more in depth inspections, when you're looking for something in particular, or type or mod specific.

Nothing defines what a PPI should include, and I have bought three planes with zero PPI. But, were I doing a PPI for someone else, an inspection to at least the airplane manufacturer's inspection checklist, all ICA's, and all AD's would be a minimum.
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edmanster
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Re: PreBuy

Post by edmanster »

Exactly .. seen many an inspection where annual on a Comanche 250 cost about $350. Discounts avail if u brought ur own Brake linings ..
Major Structures was always performed per AC43.13 less any specific details & its only an issue if it is an issue !
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Bug_Stomper_01
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Re: PreBuy

Post by Bug_Stomper_01 »

Rich3791 wrote: Sun Mar 20, 2022 2:17 pm Hello all,

I've done some searching but have not really found what I'm looking for. I find Google is not much help either in sourcing AME's for doing a prebuy. It seems you need to know someone to ask for a referral but when I'm looking at something in AB and I live in Eastern ON not sure word of mouth travels that far.

Is there a resource to look up and contact AME's in different areas of the country?
We’re a small community of as is, let alone ame’s that specialize on particular aircraft.
It’s mostly word of mouth how you find us short of hiring the manufacturer or a manufacturer approved service Center to take on & handle the task.
A good pre buy consists of a thorough detailed panels off visual/tactile inspection with minimal disassembly by an AME with overhaul experience preferably. The AME needs access to all of the engine, airframe & all applicable logbooks as well as a current tracking report on site during the inspection.
In short I suggest you call the manufacturer and go from there, they’ll be able to guide you to someone locally.
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Bug_Stomper_01
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Re: PreBuy

Post by Bug_Stomper_01 »

digits_ wrote: Sun Mar 20, 2022 2:34 pm Easiest way I found is just to call around at the airports close to where the plane is located and find an AME who is not currently working on the plane. Ask them if they are familiar with the airplane type and if they would want to do a pre buy on the plane.

It is very impractical and expensive to get expert AME A from province B to check out airplane C.
I disagree, if you’re doing a pre buy you better know the AME and his capabilities before tasking him with a pre buy. Depending on the aircraft it could cost the buyer dearly if something is missed. Call the manufacturer and go from there.
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digits_
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Re: PreBuy

Post by digits_ »

Bug_Stomper_01 wrote: Sat May 28, 2022 6:01 am
digits_ wrote: Sun Mar 20, 2022 2:34 pm Easiest way I found is just to call around at the airports close to where the plane is located and find an AME who is not currently working on the plane. Ask them if they are familiar with the airplane type and if they would want to do a pre buy on the plane.

It is very impractical and expensive to get expert AME A from province B to check out airplane C.
I disagree, if you’re doing a pre buy you better know the AME and his capabilities before tasking him with a pre buy. Depending on the aircraft it could cost the buyer dearly if something is missed. Call the manufacturer and go from there.
Ideally, yes, but if that's the only way you want to buy a small airplane, it's unlikely you will find/would have found something in the current market.

Properly priced airplanes moved quite quickly. It would take at least 2 or 3 weeks to organize a pre buy like you recommend. By that time someone else would have bought it if it was a good deal.
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As an AvCanada discussion grows longer:
-the probability of 'entitlement' being mentioned, approaches 1
-one will be accused of using bad airmanship
Bug_Stomper_01
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Re: PreBuy

Post by Bug_Stomper_01 »

digits_ wrote: Sat May 28, 2022 3:59 pm
Bug_Stomper_01 wrote: Sat May 28, 2022 6:01 am
digits_ wrote: Sun Mar 20, 2022 2:34 pm Easiest way I found is just to call around at the airports close to where the plane is located and find an AME who is not currently working on the plane. Ask them if they are familiar with the airplane type and if they would want to do a pre buy on the plane.

It is very impractical and expensive to get expert AME A from province B to check out airplane C.
I disagree, if you’re doing a pre buy you better know the AME and his capabilities before tasking him with a pre buy. Depending on the aircraft it could cost the buyer dearly if something is missed. Call the manufacturer and go from there.
Ideally, yes, but if that's the only way you want to buy a small airplane, it's unlikely you will find/would have found something in the current market.

Properly priced airplanes moved quite quickly. It would take at least 2 or 3 weeks to organize a pre buy like you recommend. By that time someone else would have bought it if it was a good deal.
I didn’t read every response in this thread but OP didn’t mention anything about a “small airplane” or any kind of timeline. I’ve been doing this a very long time and done countless pre buy inspections and I’ve never had a single complaint with everything I find / my cost.
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