Mainline hiring

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I believe Alpa policy has filed a lawsuit against ALPA over the PTA. Search BC Supreme Court.

[lownslow]

The people who suffer are the Q Captains doing their time for the greater good of the team. For their sacrifice they get to watch people off the street get the very carrot that was dangled in front of their faces.

Think the Jazz DEC posting is related in any way?

[the-minister31]

The people who suffer are the Q Captains doing their time for the greater good of the team. For their sacrifice they get to watch people off the street get the very carrot that was dangled in front of their faces.

Think the Jazz DEC posting is related in any way?

I think Jazz just ran the numbers and is scared to run out of qualified pilots for the left seat on the next bid.

[bob99]

...eg. complete 3 years as FO and upgrade to captain, start at step 4 captain pay).

Except upgrades are at more like 10-20 years so anyone upgrading would go at year 10 pay wouldn't they?


Out of curiosity, why isn't flow coming from Encore pilots? Why are you letting them hire off the street at all?

Upgrades are at the 9 year mark right now.

Encore did start flowing pilots in the June bid. As much as it pains me to say it - I agree with the company in regards to not being able to fill WJ classes with 100% Encore pilots. They can't lose all their experienced pilots that quickly. This is especially true now that Encore lowered the hiring minimums to 250 hours.

The company isn't doing themselves any favours. Just like pre pandemic, those Captains will leave in large numbers to AC, Transat, et al, by the quickest means possible. They will lose those Captains one way or another.

[truecolours]

I believe Alpa policy has filed a lawsuit against ALPA over the PTA. Search BC Supreme Court.

I paid the $6.00 out of curiosity to read the claim. This will be an interesting one to see unfold.

Thinking it through though - I wonder how the PTA is any different than an airline merger where pilots might end up out of line.

[imjustlurking]

I believe Alpa policy has filed a lawsuit against ALPA over the PTA. Search BC Supreme Court.

ALPAPolicy is no longer a user on here. His name, as he has proudly stated on this forum several times, is John. It is my opinion that he has the value of used toilet paper and this lawsuit is frivolous.

Feel free to take my opinion with a grain of salt as I am not a lawyer, nor am I specifically versed on his lawsuit(s).

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[quote=ads-b post_id=<a href="tel:1194725">1194725</a> time=<a href="tel:1652585975">1652585975</a> user_id=80065]
I believe Alpa policy has filed a lawsuit against ALPA over the PTA. Search BC Supreme Court.

ALPAPolicy is no longer a user on here. His name, as he has proudly stated on this forum several times, is John. It is my opinion that he has the value of used toilet paper and this lawsuit is frivolous.

Feel free to take my opinion with a grain of salt as I am not a lawyer, nor am I specifically versed on his lawsuit(s).
[/quote]


I’ve no skin in this one. But I think he makes pretty good points. How do you accrue seniority at 2 separate companies at the same time? Why is the WJ MEC more concerned about pilots not employed at WJ then pilots employed at WJ? Flow to me means ability to join any company bottom of the list ie jazz/AC.

Will be interesting.

[imjustlurking]

I’ve no skin in this one. But I think he makes pretty good points. How do you accrue seniority at 2 separate companies at the same time? Why is the WJ MEC more concerned about pilots not employed at WJ then pilots employed at WJ? Flow to me means ability to join any company bottom of the list ie jazz/AC.

Will be interesting.

John's argument many times was that Encore pilots do not deserve seniority while flying the WestJet tail and WestJet passengers, contributing to the WestJet bottom line, and working for a company fully owned by WestJet Airlines. He also argued that Sunwing pilots coming in, having never contributed to WestJet, deserve full seniority based on their date of hire at WG.

Let me be clear with my words here: John Swallow is a person who is trying to stir the shit to no benefit of his own as he is ~250 down from the top of the list. His opinions do not benefit any current WestJet, Swoop, or Encore pilot, and only have any bearing on future employees who have not yet been hired yet.

The PTA states that all pilots with a reserved seniority number will retain that seniority number and the privileges associated with it, even if the PTA is struck down. It was ratified by vote and is legally binding.

[sstaurus]

Upgrades are at the 9 year mark right now.

Encore did start flowing pilots in the June bid. As much as it pains me to say it - I agree with the company in regards to not being able to fill WJ classes with 100% Encore pilots. They can't lose all their experienced pilots that quickly. This is especially true now that Encore lowered the hiring minimums to 250 hours.

I have zero sympathy for Westjet on this. They chose to preferentially hire no time pilots at Encore, and then made a deal in bad faith to "flow", knowing full well they had no intention of honoring it. And the people who suffer are the Q Captains doing their time for the greater good of the team. For their sacrifice they get to watch people off the street get the very carrot that was dangled in front of their faces. It highlights everything that is wrong with aviation in Canada in a nutshell.

That flow model, when Encore started, was based on the premise that experienced pilots would continue to fall out of trees forever. That clearly isn’t the case anymore… and Encore needs to be made a good enough place to work on it’s own merit or the whole thing will fall apart. The mainline carrot is moldy and you need a telescope just to catch a glimpse of it in the distance.

[sarg]

I’ve no skin in this one. But I think he makes pretty good points. How do you accrue seniority at 2 separate companies at the same time? Why is the WJ MEC more concerned about pilots not employed at WJ then pilots employed at WJ? Flow to me means ability to join any company bottom of the list ie jazz/AC.

Will be interesting.

John's argument many times was that Encore pilots do not deserve seniority while flying the WestJet tail and WestJet passengers, contributing to the WestJet bottom line, and working for a company fully owned by WestJet Airlines. He also argued that Sunwing pilots coming in, having never contributed to WestJet, deserve full seniority based on their date of hire at WG.

Let me be clear with my words here: John Swallow is a person who is trying to stir the shit to no benefit of his own as he is ~250 down from the top of the list. His opinions do not benefit any current WestJet, Swoop, or Encore pilot, and only have any bearing on future employees who have not yet been hired yet.

The PTA states that all pilots with a reserved seniority number will retain that seniority number and the privileges associated with it, even if the PTA is struck down. It was ratified by vote and is legally binding.

I think you can prepare yourself for some serious disappointment if you're banking on the PTA existing in 6 months. The likelihood of reserved seniority numbers surviving the possible merger of Sunwing is also slim. Wither you like it or not Encore is a separate company from WestJet or Swoop or WestJet Vacations and the company set it up that way. Should you take your argument to the extremes you should you be able to transfer your seniority to any of the Onex owned companies.

Have the Encore MEC pursue common employer status that would solve the problem.

The fact that the PTA was voted down the first attempt and then had a non-connected financial aspect included in the second vote can easily bring the vote results into doubt.

[imjustlurking]

I think you can prepare yourself for some serious disappointment if you're banking on the PTA existing in 6 months. The likelihood of reserved seniority numbers surviving the possible merger of Sunwing is also slim. Wither you like it or not Encore is a separate company from WestJet or Swoop or WestJet Vacations and the company set it up that way. Should you take your argument to the extremes you should you be able to transfer your seniority to any of the Onex owned companies.

Have the Encore MEC pursue common employer status that would solve the problem.

The fact that the PTA was voted down the first attempt and then had a non-connected financial aspect included in the second vote can easily bring the vote results into doubt.

Since you haven't read what you're arguing against, here's an excerpt.

[sarg]

I think you can prepare yourself for some serious disappointment if you're banking on the PTA existing in 6 months. The likelihood of reserved seniority numbers surviving the possible merger of Sunwing is also slim. Wither you like it or not Encore is a separate company from WestJet or Swoop or WestJet Vacations and the company set it up that way. Should you take your argument to the extremes you should you be able to transfer your seniority to any of the Onex owned companies.

Have the Encore MEC pursue common employer status that would solve the problem.

The fact that the PTA was voted down the first attempt and then had a non-connected financial aspect included in the second vote can easily bring the vote results into doubt.

Since you haven't read what you're arguing against, here's an excerpt.

Ya,

Not only have I read the PTA, that clause is just one the numerous reasons I voted against it.

I've seen you highlight that clause before, I and many others believe that this clause will not survive the legal challenge most likely to be brought against it during a merger.

Here's the neat thing about differing opinions and the law, you argue your case in front of a judge(or arbitrator) and get a ruling, so your opinion or mine don't matter. Just because something is in a agreement doesn't mean it's legal, if the MEC didn't have the legal right to agree the granting of preferential seniority or the granting of preferential seniority is illegal then the whole thing becomes null and void.

Wither it's John or the Sunwing pilot's union I can guarantee that the PTA is going to end up in front of a judge or arbitrator when it does we will all have the clarity of the legally enforceable ruling. What I will also guarantee, is regardless of the outcome there will be approximately 450-500 pilots unhappy with the ruling.

If during the potential merger with the Sunwing pilots you're expecting the WestJet/Swoop bargaining unit to expend a lot of effort protecting reserved seniority for Encore pilots at their expense, you will be disappointed.

[imjustlurking]

I think you can prepare yourself for some serious disappointment if you're banking on the PTA existing in 6 months. The likelihood of reserved seniority numbers surviving the possible merger of Sunwing is also slim. Wither you like it or not Encore is a separate company from WestJet or Swoop or WestJet Vacations and the company set it up that way. Should you take your argument to the extremes you should you be able to transfer your seniority to any of the Onex owned companies.

Have the Encore MEC pursue common employer status that would solve the problem.

The fact that the PTA was voted down the first attempt and then had a non-connected financial aspect included in the second vote can easily bring the vote results into doubt.

Since you haven't read what you're arguing against, here's an excerpt.

Ya,

Not only have I read the PTA, that clause is just one the numerous reasons I voted against it.

I've seen you highlight that clause before, I and many others believe that this clause will not survive the legal challenge most likely to be brought against it during a merger.

Here's the neat thing about differing opinions and the law, you argue your case in front of a judge(or arbitrator) and get a ruling, so your opinion or mine don't matter. Just because something is in a agreement doesn't mean it's legal, if the MEC didn't have the legal right to agree the granting of preferential seniority or the granting of preferential seniority is illegal then the whole thing becomes null and void.

Wither it's John or the Sunwing pilot's union I can guarantee that the PTA is going to end up in front of a judge or arbitrator when it does we will all have the clarity of the legally enforceable ruling. What I will also guarantee, is regardless of the outcome there will be approximately 450-500 pilots unhappy with the ruling.

If during the potential merger with the Sunwing pilots you're expecting the WestJet/Swoop bargaining unit to expend a lot of effort protecting reserved seniority for Encore pilots at their expense, you will be disappointed.

You seem to think that this agreement was pulled out of someone's ass and then voted on. Let me remind you that WestJet and ALPA have in-house lawyers that would have reviewed the agreement before and after it was approved by the MEC and sent out to vote.

At the end of the day, all parties overwhelmingly voted in favour and any arbitrator would ask why the sudden change.

Is it because you've gotten your use out of the bump down clause and it no longer suits you?

Let me remind you: Sunwing pilots are not WestJet pilots. They have never worn a WestJet uniform or flown a WestJet tail. Encore pilots are WestJet employees and are working to further the goals of the WJAMEC on top of the goals of the WENMEC.

[fish4life]

I heard a rumour that it was challenged in court before and the court challenge didn’t hold up any truth to that?

[sarg]

You seem to think that this agreement was pulled out of someone's ass and then voted on. Let me remind you that WestJet and ALPA have in-house lawyers that would have reviewed the agreement before and after it was approved by the MEC and sent out to vote.

At the end of the day, all parties overwhelmingly voted in favour and any arbitrator would ask why the sudden change.

Is it because you've gotten your use out of the bump down clause and it no longer suits you?

Let me remind you: Sunwing pilots are not WestJet pilots. They have never worn a WestJet uniform or flown a WestJet tail. Encore pilots are WestJet employees and are working to further the goals of the WJAMEC on top of the goals of the WENMEC.

[/quote]

I think you might need to spend some time on reading comprehension. I clearly stated I voted no to the PTA both times. Although voted in by a majority the second time calling it overwhelming is a stretch.

An arbitrator will also be asking why during the second vote the voting issue was clouded by a second nonrelated issue. In case you aren't aware the second vote for WestJet pilots on the PTA had a resolution on the stock option program attached.

The current WJ MEC fired the lawyer that was involved in the PTA, any guess as to part of the reasoning why? As previously stated when this ends up being challenged a ruling will be furnished, at that point we will all have clarification. Again, just because something is written by a lawyer doesn't make it legal, refer to the dual basing issue.

You need to realize the Sunwing pilots will be WestJet pilots arguing that they should be second class pilots will be a poor way to start merger talks. Perhaps those of us that have been through mergers before both realize the complexity of the process and are mature enough to understand that the next time the shoe could be on the other foot.

[goingmissed]

You need to realize the Sunwing pilots will be WestJet pilots arguing that they should be second class pilots will be a poor way to start merger talks. Perhaps those of us that have been through mergers before both realize the complexity of the process and are mature enough to understand that the next time the shoe could be on the other foot.

Arguing that Encore pilots aren't already WestJet pilots and considering them second class pilots is a poor way to talk about your coworkers.

[SWALLOW_v_ALPA]

Arguing that Encore pilots aren't already WestJet pilots and considering them second class pilots is a poor way to talk about your coworkers.

I have just read JS's claim against the Association and I understand that his argument essentially turns on precisely the point you raise: his contention is that WestJet Encore pilots are not WestJet pilots.

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[quote=sarg post_id=<a href="tel:1195052">1195052</a> time=<a href="tel:1652819896">1652819896</a> user_id=5055]
You need to realize the Sunwing pilots will be WestJet pilots arguing that they should be second class pilots will be a poor way to start merger talks. Perhaps those of us that have been through mergers before both realize the complexity of the process and are mature enough to understand that the next time the shoe could be on the other foot.

Arguing that Encore pilots aren't already WestJet pilots and considering them second class pilots is a poor way to talk about your coworkers.
[/quote]

You just nailed the issue. This all revolves around common employer. If your not common employer your not Westjet airlines. It’s up to encore pilots what class they’d like to be. The same argument the air ontario pilots had with air Canada. That didn’t work out well for them.

[truecolours]

Unfortunately (or not depending on your position), an arbitrator has already ruled on the “are Encore pilots WestJet pilots” debate. The layoff pay grievance has finally given us an answer.

Jumping over to the PTA and lawyer discussion. If you are willing to use a majority vote to defend the PTA, would that not mean another majority vote could un-do (or reorganize) the seniority list?

I think the pta vote might be happening this time around. There are a growing number of former PTA supporters who have voiced opposition to it in light on the 230 agenda sent out last week.

[aerobod]

In the end, the situation may just be status quo, as there are good arguments for Onex to keep WS and WG separate, so the pilot groups would stay separate, too.

The benefit to the merger would be price and schedule coordination (assuming no monopoly on a given route) and the ability to handle IROPS with aircraft from the other operator. WestJet and Sunwing Vacations require mainly point-to-point flying in winter to sun destinations and bargain east-west flying in the summer that can easily be fulfilled by WG (perhaps with a name and brand change to SunJet ). WO pilots could be re-absorbed into the WS future growth and WG could be re-branded Swoop and take on the WO fleet, too, recruiting to fill the WO pilot seats that were vacated when those pilots moved back to WS. Or Swoop could disappear as a brand and Sunwing would be retained as the ULCC unit.

There are several solutions not involving merging any pilot group or changing any current agreements that would also meet the merger needs. One interesting scenario with no member switching bargaining units is Sunwing re-branded as Swoop and absorbing the almost identically equipped Swoop fleet, that would then mean besides a paint and logo job, Swoop would then be WG using the WG operating certificate.

[SWALLOW_v_ALPA]

I have reached out to colleagues familiar with Canadian labor law and the consensus seems to favor a common employer attempt by a labor union or a corporation party to the purchase. I suspect, from a commercial perspective, operating the entities separately may not achieve the desired economies of scale.

Canada would seem a challenging market for an airline compared to the USA with our population density. I am not an airline expert, but I think you are likely to see some sort of merged operation(s). Efficiency is everything in business.

The situation with the civil suit against ALPA is unique. Here in the USA, the matter would have remained, most likely, statutorily bound to the RLA with the assistance of the NMB before heading to the court for adjudication.

While I am not familiar with ALPA's policies, if JS can substantiate the seniority policy, the Constitutional argument he presented seems valid, while rare, at least.

[TeePeeCreeper]

I have reached out to colleagues familiar with Canadian labor law and the consensus seems to favor a common employer attempt by a labor union or a corporation party to the purchase. I suspect, from a commercial perspective, operating the entities separately may not achieve the desired economies of scale.

Canada would seem a challenging market for an airline compared to the USA with our population density. I am not an airline expert, but I think you are likely to see some sort of merged operation(s). Efficiency is everything in business.

The situation with the civil suit against ALPA is unique. Here in the USA, the matter would have remained, most likely, statutorily bound to the RLA with the assistance of the NMB before heading to the court for adjudication.

While I am not familiar with ALPA's policies, if JS can substantiate the seniority policy, the Constitutional argument he presented seems valid, while rare, at least.

How many different user names can a poster have on this site?

8, 9? By my count…

I don’t have a dog in this race but I do care about my colleges that do.

“I am not familiar with ALPA policies” should say plenty about this poster.

Food for thought!

[SWALLOW_v_ALPA]

I appreciate the concern and if it were true it might being suspicion to my posts. As it is, my significant other is a Sunwing pilot, and he might be surprised to find out I am a man.

Following the annoncement of the merger, we both were actually excited as it will make his commute from here in the USA to his Toronto base much easier, given Westjet's network.

He brought up his concerns regarding the merger to me some time ago. While my discipline is not law, per se, I have more than a passing familiarity with many legal topics.

I don’t want him to lose ground in this merger. I understand how important seniority is to pilots. He has had an excellent schedule in his time at Sunwing and we both hope that he doesn’t suffer a loss, if any, as a result of this merger, should it happen.

So, we are watching what happens.

[chris.y]

Hello,

Question about new hire getting yyz base, how long will it take approximately to get yvr or yyc transfer ? Thx

[Greasy Greaser]

Hello,

Question about new hire getting yyz base, how long will it take approximately to get yvr or yyc transfer ? Thx

Pretty quick with the current trend, I'd bet less than a year easily. Pretty sure YVR is only a little more junior than YYC so expect that first.
Though with anything and everything, things do change.