Suspended AME application from tc.

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Jumbo joe
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Suspended AME application from tc.

Post by Jumbo joe »

Hi
I was recently told by tc. that my ame log book was falsified and my application for ame is suspended.
Now he has never gave me a reason for this only stating that my books were falsified. I have tried to contact him several times to speak to him and get some answers as to why he thinks this. He has however been in touch with my DOM and he told him that I have to prove 150 M1 tasks and 140 M2. Wich is impossible the M2 came from another company that sold out and finding the M1 stuff on the computer program will be a daunting task bc most of the stuff is not going to be in my name it will be the AME who signed it off or start from scratch meaning new log books
My logbook is 100% true to my understanding
What do I do? I have no clue where to start?
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PitchLink
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Re: Suspended AME application from tc.

Post by PitchLink »

Jumbo joe wrote: Wed Oct 06, 2021 11:54 am Hi
I was recently told by tc. that my ame log book was falsified and my application for ame is suspended.
Now he has never gave me a reason for this only stating that my books were falsified. I have tried to contact him several times to speak to him and get some answers as to why he thinks this. He has however been in touch with my DOM and he told him that I have to prove 150 M1 tasks and 140 M2. Wich is impossible the M2 came from another company that sold out and finding the M1 stuff on the computer program will be a daunting task bc most of the stuff is not going to be in my name it will be the AME who signed it off or start from scratch meaning new log books
My logbook is 100% true to my understanding
What do I do? I have no clue where to start?
You can escalate it to Ottawa if it’s sincerely a legit log book. You should have contact info for the ames that signed your tasks otherwise. Maybe get ahold of them and see if they’ll stand behind your work? Not a very good situation to be in that’s for sure, I can’t say that I’ve ever heard of this happening. This is a serious allegation from your TC inspector and I’d imagine there’d be a fine involved if this is substantive…
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nine sixteenths
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Re: Suspended AME application from tc.

Post by nine sixteenths »

Jumbo joe wrote: Wed Oct 06, 2021 11:54 am finding the M1 stuff on the computer program will be a daunting task bc most of the stuff is not going to be in my name it will be the AME who signed it off
Your AME logbook should have the date the task was performed, and the aircraft’s registration, as well as that AME who supervised you completing the task and who is putting their signature / license information as an attestation that you are capable to identify the applicable standard of work, select the correct tools, complete the task, and complete the paperwork. This should make it a far less daunting task than you indicate. AD Compliance verification on an older aircraft would be more challenging, you’ll only have a few years of records to look at. Also, your name should appear somewhere on that paperwork, to prove you were involved, maybe on the inspection check sheet or somewhere.

I feel like there might be missing information in your original post. Do the entries in your personal logbook meet the requirements of Std 566? Is it an abnormal type of logbook, not one of the maroon, TC style AME Personal Logbooks? Is it the original logbook, or was a copy submitted? Has it got foreign, non registered (like museum pieces) or non-civil aircraft in it? It sounds like there was only two AMO’s involved, is that accurate? I have seen many logbooks get rejected for insufficient tasks, but not one accused of falsification. TC can be challenging to work with, more so now with COVID and the individuals are often working from home, but something seems very odd that they are accusing you of falsification of your logbook but yet not giving you the details of your accused crime.
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Jumbo joe
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Re: Suspended AME application from tc.

Post by Jumbo joe »

Yes they meet std 566. They are paperback logbook very similar to the hard covers maroon ones. I sent scanned copy of my logbook due to covid.
Yes 2 AMO's involved. Very frustrating still no word from him very un professional. I will escalate it with Ottawa if I don't get answers soon. Thanks for your advice
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PitchLink
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Re: Suspended AME application from tc.

Post by PitchLink »

Jumbo joe wrote: Thu Oct 07, 2021 7:53 pm Yes they meet std 566. They are paperback logbook very similar to the hard covers maroon ones. I sent scanned copy of my logbook due to covid.
Yes 2 AMO's involved. Very frustrating still no word from him very un professional. I will escalate it with Ottawa if I don't get answers soon. Thanks for your advice
You had M1 and M2 tasks in separate logbooks? Also you would have had to have a letter of recommendation from your PRM, so it’s more than just a problem with your logbook I would think. This all seems very strange….did you have at least 70% of each chapter filled and 70% of the applicable tasks to your fleet filled?
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PitchLink
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Re: Suspended AME application from tc.

Post by PitchLink »

Jumbo joe wrote: Thu Oct 07, 2021 7:53 pm Yes they meet std 566. They are paperback logbook very similar to the hard covers maroon ones. I sent scanned copy of my logbook due to covid.
Yes 2 AMO's involved. Very frustrating still no word from him very un professional. I will escalate it with Ottawa if I don't get answers soon. Thanks for your advice
You had M1 and M2 tasks in separate logbooks? Also you would have had to have a letter of recommendation from your PRM, so it’s more than just a problem with your logbook I would think. This all seems very strange….did you have at least 70% of each chapter filled and 70% of the applicable tasks to your fleet filled?
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Jumbo joe
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Re: Suspended AME application from tc.

Post by Jumbo joe »

You had M1 and M2 tasks in separate logbooks? Also you would have had to have a letter of recommendation from your PRM, so it’s more than just a problem with your logbook I would think. This all seems very strange….did you have at least 70% of each chapter filled and 70% of the applicable tasks to your fleet filled?


Yes separate book for M1 and M2, yes I had a letter from my PRM. Yes I have more then 70% in each book but that not the problem.
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PitchLink
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Re: Suspended AME application from tc.

Post by PitchLink »

Jumbo joe wrote: Fri Oct 08, 2021 8:35 am You had M1 and M2 tasks in separate logbooks? Also you would have had to have a letter of recommendation from your PRM, so it’s more than just a problem with your logbook I would think. This all seems very strange….did you have at least 70% of each chapter filled and 70% of the applicable tasks to your fleet filled?


Yes separate book for M1 and M2, yes I had a letter from my PRM. Yes I have more then 70% in each book but that not the problem.
He just said that he didn’t believe the tasks were done?
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Jumbo joe
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Re: Suspended AME application from tc.

Post by Jumbo joe »

PitchLink wrote: Fri Oct 08, 2021 12:33 pm
Jumbo joe wrote: Fri Oct 08, 2021 8:35 am You had M1 and M2 tasks in separate logbooks? Also you would have had to have a letter of recommendation from your PRM, so it’s more than just a problem with your logbook I would think. This all seems very strange….did you have at least 70% of each chapter filled and 70% of the applicable tasks to your fleet filled?


Yes separate book for M1 and M2, yes I had a letter from my PRM. Yes I have more then 70% in each book but that not the problem.
He just said that he didn’t believe the tasks were done?

Yes that my books were falsified is the word he used.
I'm thinking the company I work for is under a microscope with tc and I'm in the cross hair's idk.
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PitchLink
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Re: Suspended AME application from tc.

Post by PitchLink »

Jumbo joe wrote: Fri Oct 08, 2021 5:30 pm
PitchLink wrote: Fri Oct 08, 2021 12:33 pm
Jumbo joe wrote: Fri Oct 08, 2021 8:35 am You had M1 and M2 tasks in separate logbooks? Also you would have had to have a letter of recommendation from your PRM, so it’s more than just a problem with your logbook I would think. This all seems very strange….did you have at least 70% of each chapter filled and 70% of the applicable tasks to your fleet filled?


Yes separate book for M1 and M2, yes I had a letter from my PRM. Yes I have more then 70% in each book but that not the problem.
He just said that he didn’t believe the tasks were done?

Yes that my books were falsified is the word he used.
I'm thinking the company I work for is under a microscope with tc and I'm in the cross hair's idk.
That’s a good possibility, really unfortunate.
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PitchLink
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Re: Suspended AME application from tc.

Post by PitchLink »

Jumbo joe wrote: Fri Oct 08, 2021 5:30 pm
PitchLink wrote: Fri Oct 08, 2021 12:33 pm
Jumbo joe wrote: Fri Oct 08, 2021 8:35 am You had M1 and M2 tasks in separate logbooks? Also you would have had to have a letter of recommendation from your PRM, so it’s more than just a problem with your logbook I would think. This all seems very strange….did you have at least 70% of each chapter filled and 70% of the applicable tasks to your fleet filled?


Yes separate book for M1 and M2, yes I had a letter from my PRM. Yes I have more then 70% in each book but that not the problem.
He just said that he didn’t believe the tasks were done?

Yes that my books were falsified is the word he used.
I'm thinking the company I work for is under a microscope with tc and I'm in the cross hair's idk.
They should have explained why they think it’s falsified. Without giving you the reasons why they look falsified it’s nothing more than a bald allegation.
I’ve worked all over Canada in my career and you would think each regional office would be the same, the sad reality is they’re not. You can never remove human factors as long as humans are involved.
I know in western Canada one trend may be happening between tc and apprentices for licensing vs ontario and eastern Canada doing the complete opposite on several similar scenarios.

I think you said he asked for you to prove the tasks, that I have dealt with. I tell my guys to record work order numbers and dates for tasks for every signature just in case anything comes into question it’s easier to go back and prove. Are you able to get this info?
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Bug_Stomper_01
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Re: Suspended AME application from tc.

Post by Bug_Stomper_01 »

Jumbo joe wrote: Wed Oct 06, 2021 11:54 am Hi
I was recently told by tc. that my ame log book was falsified and my application for ame is suspended.
Now he has never gave me a reason for this only stating that my books were falsified. I have tried to contact him several times to speak to him and get some answers as to why he thinks this. He has however been in touch with my DOM and he told him that I have to prove 150 M1 tasks and 140 M2. Wich is impossible the M2 came from another company that sold out and finding the M1 stuff on the computer program will be a daunting task bc most of the stuff is not going to be in my name it will be the AME who signed it off or start from scratch meaning new log books
My logbook is 100% true to my understanding
What do I do? I have no clue where to start?
Heard of something similar to this many years ago.
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Last edited by Bug_Stomper_01 on Sun Mar 13, 2022 9:59 pm, edited 1 time in total.
boeingfixr
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Re: Suspended AME application from tc.

Post by boeingfixr »

I have seen a similar situation. However, in that situation the AME signing the book didn't have a valid AME license. The apprentice was also told his book was falsified. The TC inspector let it slip and he had to get all the tasks signed by that person redone.
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-42
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Re: Suspended AME application from tc.

Post by -42 »

You could move your file to another jurisdiction. My experience with TC was ask two different people expect two different answers. They are “experts” at interpretation of grey areas. If that fails maybe appeal it somehow and if that fails find the logbooks and start looking for tasks. Transport Canada in my experience is one of the most sketchy outfits out there and I know they hold grudges. You get the odd good inspector that slips through but they are far and few between. I got all my tasks years ago in a place where the inspector was not very well regarded and I knew there would be problems so I moved my file elsewhere and applied there…..no problems. This was many moons ago and maybe their Commodore 64 or Tandy is now a Mac so it might be more difficult for you to be elusive with your file movements. Good luck! I hate aviation. Glad I am out of it.
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Bug_Stomper_01
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Re: Suspended AME application from tc.

Post by Bug_Stomper_01 »

-42 wrote: Mon Mar 14, 2022 8:16 pm You could move your file to another jurisdiction. My experience with TC was ask two different people expect two different answers. They are “experts” at interpretation of grey areas. If that fails maybe appeal it somehow and if that fails find the logbooks and start looking for tasks. Transport Canada in my experience is one of the most sketchy outfits out there and I know they hold grudges. You get the odd good inspector that slips through but they are far and few between. I got all my tasks years ago in a place where the inspector was not very well regarded and I knew there would be problems so I moved my file elsewhere and applied there…..no problems. This was many moons ago and maybe their Commodore 64 or Tandy is now a Mac so it might be more difficult for you to be elusive with your file movements. Good luck! I hate aviation. Glad I am out of it.
+1 for the hatred lol
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Bede
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Re: Suspended AME application from tc.

Post by Bede »

You apply to the TATC to review the Minister's decision. https://tatc.gc.ca/en/applications/how- ... eview.html

Falsifying a document to obtain a license is about the worst thing you can be accused of. Rest assured that if they actually had any evidence of this you'd have received a notice from TC or the Public Prosecution Service of Canada.
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Tantrum1
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Re: Suspended AME application from tc.

Post by Tantrum1 »

-42 wrote: Mon Mar 14, 2022 8:16 pm You could move your file to another jurisdiction. My experience with TC was ask two different people expect two different answers. They are “experts” at interpretation of grey areas. If that fails maybe appeal it somehow and if that fails find the logbooks and start looking for tasks. Transport Canada in my experience is one of the most sketchy outfits out there and I know they hold grudges. You get the odd good inspector that slips through but they are far and few between. I got all my tasks years ago in a place where the inspector was not very well regarded and I knew there would be problems so I moved my file elsewhere and applied there…..no problems. This was many moons ago and maybe their Commodore 64 or Tandy is now a Mac so it might be more difficult for you to be elusive with your file movements. Good luck! I hate aviation. Glad I am out of it.

Aint that the truth!! I applied in one region with my logbook and wrote my exams in the region i was working. Only way I was able to pull that off was via flight benefits.
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OT3
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Re: Suspended AME application from tc.

Post by OT3 »

Jumbo joe wrote: Wed Oct 06, 2021 11:54 am Hi
I was recently told by tc. that my ame log book was falsified and my application for ame is suspended.
Now he has never gave me a reason for this only stating that my books were falsified. I have tried to contact him several times to speak to him and get some answers as to why he thinks this. He has however been in touch with my DOM and he told him that I have to prove 150 M1 tasks and 140 M2. Wich is impossible the M2 came from another company that sold out and finding the M1 stuff on the computer program will be a daunting task bc most of the stuff is not going to be in my name it will be the AME who signed it off or start from scratch meaning new log books
My logbook is 100% true to my understanding
What do I do? I have no clue where to start?
My advice would be to contact all the AME's who signed your logbook and have them sign a simple 1 page declaration affirming that they did sign your book and that you performed the work signed for IAW CARS 566 and all applicable standards. I mean, it's kind of hard to say you forged a log book when all the signatories are affirming they actually signed it. And unless you were doing your apprenticeship as a contractor, you should have a fairly small pool of AME's to contact. The only roadblock to this option I can see, is if one of the AME's who did some of your sign-offs is under some sort of audit or investigation themselves.

I've seen this type of thing twice before. Once, an apprentice that came through our company was caught falsifying his logbook by the regional inspector, who was reviewing his AME application. This apprentice was not the sharpest tool in the shed and he made entries up for a B727 that our company had retired over a year before. Canada is a pretty small country - AME wise - and the inspector knew the registration of the aircraft being used, and that it hadn't been airworthy for more then a year.

The second time, I was personally a victim of someone forging my signature in their book. I only found out about it because the guy left his logbook on the lunch room table one day and the other guys took a look through it. I wasn't on base at that time (rotational job) but they called me at home and said this guy had used my name for an engine change he had nothing to do with. I didn't rat him out, but I did call him at home and told him to strike out that entry and show it to me the next time we worked that same rotation - otherwise I would contact TC. He did, but then he just quite a few months later anyhow. Some people just aren't cut out for this career. Could you imagine trusting your safety to someone who would lie about their logbooks?

BTW, what's the going rate for a signature these days anyhow? Still a beer? That's probably way to cheap by today's standards ;)
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Found
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Re: Suspended AME application from tc.

Post by Found »

You need to contact the person who declined your application boss if he won't get back to you.
The old days there was no logbook, you put in your time and got a letter from the company you were ready to write. I see these logbooks as a way of holding people back at some companies. Most places it adds extra work load at the end of a job when you are trying to get the plane out or when the apprentice has their time in and forgot to get a bunch of signatures.
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