Distorted Gender View at Lynx

Discuss topics relating to airlines.

Moderators: sky's the limit, sepia, Sulako, North Shore

Downunder
Rank 0
Rank 0
Posts: 2
Joined: Wed Jun 22, 2022 6:39 am

Distorted Gender View at Lynx

Post by Downunder »

---------- ADS -----------
 
Mach1
Rank 7
Rank 7
Posts: 719
Joined: Wed Mar 03, 2004 9:04 am

Re: Distorted Gender View at Lynx

Post by Mach1 »

But look at those 'on time performance' numbers.
---------- ADS -----------
 
I'm going to knock this up a notch with my spice weasle. Bam!
digits_
Top Poster
Top Poster
Posts: 5930
Joined: Mon Feb 14, 2011 2:26 am

Re: Distorted Gender View at Lynx

Post by digits_ »

*cringe*
---------- ADS -----------
 
As an AvCanada discussion grows longer:
-the probability of 'entitlement' being mentioned, approaches 1
-one will be accused of using bad airmanship
tsgarp
Rank 7
Rank 7
Posts: 512
Joined: Thu Apr 01, 2004 3:18 pm

Re: Distorted Gender View at Lynx

Post by tsgarp »

Toxic feminism: "Everybody must change to serve me"
---------- ADS -----------
 
photofly
Top Poster
Top Poster
Posts: 11306
Joined: Tue Jan 18, 2011 4:47 pm
Location: Hangry and crankypated

Re: Distorted Gender View at Lynx

Post by photofly »

tsgarp wrote: Thu Jul 28, 2022 3:18 pm Any CEO doing his or her job properly: "Everybody must change to serve me"
Fixed that for you.
---------- ADS -----------
 
DId you hear the one about the jurisprudence fetishist? He got off on a technicality.
digits_
Top Poster
Top Poster
Posts: 5930
Joined: Mon Feb 14, 2011 2:26 am

Re: Distorted Gender View at Lynx

Post by digits_ »

photofly wrote: Thu Jul 28, 2022 5:24 pm
tsgarp wrote: Thu Jul 28, 2022 3:18 pm Any CEO doing his or her job properly: "Everybody must change to serve me"
Fixed that for you.
Pretty sure the hallmark of a good manager/CEO is someone who can achieve his goals with minimal change... Change is usually slow and/or expensive.

Lots of stories out there of perfectly ran companies being destroyed within months of a new CEO taking over due to excessive change.
---------- ADS -----------
 
As an AvCanada discussion grows longer:
-the probability of 'entitlement' being mentioned, approaches 1
-one will be accused of using bad airmanship
photofly
Top Poster
Top Poster
Posts: 11306
Joined: Tue Jan 18, 2011 4:47 pm
Location: Hangry and crankypated

Re: Distorted Gender View at Lynx

Post by photofly »

digits_ wrote: Thu Jul 28, 2022 5:33 pm
photofly wrote: Thu Jul 28, 2022 5:24 pm
tsgarp wrote: Thu Jul 28, 2022 3:18 pm Any CEO doing his or her job properly: "Everybody must change to serve me"
Fixed that for you.
Pretty sure the hallmark of a good manager/CEO is someone who can achieve his goals with minimal change... Change is usually slow and/or expensive.

Lots of stories out there of perfectly ran companies being destroyed within months of a new CEO taking over due to excessive change.
A woman is expected to achieve consensus, and is criticized for leading in a style that in a man wouldn’t cause a comment about “feminism” or other BS.

A good leader gives her subordinates the tools to achieve the changes she expects and demands. Shame on anyone for making this about her being a woman. Quite disgusting.
---------- ADS -----------
 
DId you hear the one about the jurisprudence fetishist? He got off on a technicality.
digits_
Top Poster
Top Poster
Posts: 5930
Joined: Mon Feb 14, 2011 2:26 am

Re: Distorted Gender View at Lynx

Post by digits_ »

photofly wrote: Thu Jul 28, 2022 5:37 pm
digits_ wrote: Thu Jul 28, 2022 5:33 pm
photofly wrote: Thu Jul 28, 2022 5:24 pm

Fixed that for you.
Pretty sure the hallmark of a good manager/CEO is someone who can achieve his goals with minimal change... Change is usually slow and/or expensive.

Lots of stories out there of perfectly ran companies being destroyed within months of a new CEO taking over due to excessive change.
A woman is expected to achieve consensus, and is criticized for leading in a style that in a man wouldn’t cause a comment about “feminism” or other BS.

A good leader gives her subordinates the tools to achieve the changes she expects and demands. Shame on anyone for making this about her being a woman. Quite disgusting.
My comment to your modified quote wasn't gender related.

About the article:
The whole article talks about the fact she is a woman manager/CEO. So it's fairly logical reactions to that article also mention her gender.

She also describes how nobody understood her way of working. As a kid I learned if you've got a problem with everyone you're working with, the problem is likely with you, not with them.

You're right that if this was a man, we'd likely wouldn't be talking about it, because there wouldn't have been an article about it. If you go to the press with your story, then don't be surprised people talk about it, and even judge you.
---------- ADS -----------
 
As an AvCanada discussion grows longer:
-the probability of 'entitlement' being mentioned, approaches 1
-one will be accused of using bad airmanship
photofly
Top Poster
Top Poster
Posts: 11306
Joined: Tue Jan 18, 2011 4:47 pm
Location: Hangry and crankypated

Re: Distorted Gender View at Lynx

Post by photofly »

digits_ wrote: Thu Jul 28, 2022 7:01 pm
She also describes how nobody understood her way of working. As a kid I learned if you've got a problem with everyone you're working with, the problem is likely with you, not with them.
That's a great attitude for a life-long team member who has zero ambition to create anything of value or lead any kind of change for the better. Pick any standout business leader you admire, and ask if they agree with you, or with me.

This CEO was appointed by the board to bring her vision of leadership to the company, not to be shy about demanding people fall in behind that vision. Leaders need to be clear and direct about what they want.

Do you consider being "asked to collaborate to communicate, or [prioritise] teamwork" is a bad thing?
---------- ADS -----------
 
DId you hear the one about the jurisprudence fetishist? He got off on a technicality.
digits_
Top Poster
Top Poster
Posts: 5930
Joined: Mon Feb 14, 2011 2:26 am

Re: Distorted Gender View at Lynx

Post by digits_ »

photofly wrote: Thu Jul 28, 2022 7:26 pm
digits_ wrote: Thu Jul 28, 2022 7:01 pm
She also describes how nobody understood her way of working. As a kid I learned if you've got a problem with everyone you're working with, the problem is likely with you, not with them.
That's a great attitude for a life-long team member who has zero ambition to create anything of value or lead any kind of change for the better. Pick any standout business leader you admire, and ask if they agree with you, or with me.
The business leaders probably had a lot of people tell them their ideas were bad, it would never work etc. However, that still required an understanding of what the business leaders are trying to do. You don't necessarily need your workers to agree with your vision or instructions, you do however need them to understand what you want them to do.

If none of your workers understand what you want them to do, the problem is you, not them.
photofly wrote: Thu Jul 28, 2022 7:26 pm This CEO was appointed by the board to bring her vision of leadership to the company, not to be shy about demanding people fall in behind that vision. Leaders need to be clear and direct about what they want.
Great, then use the interview to talk about that vision. Not about your gender.

Allow me to swap some genders in the article:
GenderSwapped wrote:“I then had this aha moment. I thought, it’s because they’ve never been led by a an,” he revealed.

“They’ve come from largely operational areas… and they’ve always been led by women. So they haven’t been asked to collaborate to communicate, or [prioritise] teamwork, because that’s not that’s not often the key driver for female leadership.”

[...]

“Then I became more patient and adapted with them and had that conversation with them. And we had further workshops and when they really got it, they became a very, very high performing and very collaborative team,” she said.
Would such statements be worthy of print in 2022?
photofly wrote: Thu Jul 28, 2022 7:26 pm Do you consider being "asked to collaborate to communicate, or [prioritise] teamwork" is a bad thing?
No. However, do you think that there was no communication or teamwork before she took over? Please.
"collaborate to communicate" or "prioritising teamwork" are vague enough concepts that every manger or CEO can have their own understanding or preferences of what it entails exactly. I doubt 2 CEOs would have the same preferences, regardless of gender.


I'm also curious how this was achieved:
Notably, by the end of her time at the helm of Tiger, 8 per cent of the airline’s pilots were female — far above the international average at the time. Meanwhile, McArthur’s senior leadership team shifted from near-all male to 40 per cent female.
Did the management team grow by 80%, or did she somehow managed to replace 40% of her management team based on their gender?
---------- ADS -----------
 
As an AvCanada discussion grows longer:
-the probability of 'entitlement' being mentioned, approaches 1
-one will be accused of using bad airmanship
photofly
Top Poster
Top Poster
Posts: 11306
Joined: Tue Jan 18, 2011 4:47 pm
Location: Hangry and crankypated

Re: Distorted Gender View at Lynx

Post by photofly »

Since there are very few women CEOs - and an even smaller proportion in the airline industry, it's very much an appropriate topic for discussion. However the article is not about her being a woman: the article is about what the headline says: "HOW EX-TIGER CHIEF MERREN MCARTHUR IMPROVED HER TEAM’S PERFORMANCE".

The gist of the story is that a CEO made an error in leadership by expecting the directors to fall in behind her style without them understanding what she wanted. Then she learned and by eventually explaining and bringing them along, she got to where she wanted them to be. It's a "this was my mistake in leadership, and when learned what my mistake was I fixed it, and then I got what I want." The part about being a woman is actually a macguffin. Of course, if one reads the article through a veil of misogyny and male privilege, one won't recognize that. But, I guess that's to be expected, because to some people, anything that mentions being a woman must be about being a woman.

Here's the punchline section:
The now-CEO of budget Canadian startup LynxAir said that once her team were finally on the same page, they managed to be a more functional and highly productive team.

Then I became more patient and adapted with them and had that conversation with them. And we had further workshops and when they really got it, they became a very, very high performing and very collaborative team,” she said.
I have emboldened the most important clauses of the article for you - that is what the story is about. It doesn't refer to her gender.
Notably, by the end of her time at the helm of Tiger, 8 per cent of the airline’s pilots were female — far above the international average at the time. Meanwhile, McArthur’s senior leadership team shifted from near-all male to 40 per cent female.
Did the management team grow by 80%, or did she somehow managed to replace 40% of her management team based on their gender?
Hopefully she sacked the incompetent ones, and replaced them with better ones who happened to be women, and there's nothing wrong with that. It wouldn't surprise me to hear there was a significant cadre of talented women willing and more than ready to appointed to the leadership team who had been previously overlooked in favour of some less competent men. Fortunately the new CEO was able to recognize that and correct things.
---------- ADS -----------
 
DId you hear the one about the jurisprudence fetishist? He got off on a technicality.
digits_
Top Poster
Top Poster
Posts: 5930
Joined: Mon Feb 14, 2011 2:26 am

Re: Distorted Gender View at Lynx

Post by digits_ »

photofly wrote: Fri Jul 29, 2022 6:45 am Since there are very few women CEOs - and an even smaller proportion in the airline industry, it's very much an appropriate topic for discussion. However the article is not about her being a woman: the article is about what the headline says: "HOW EX-TIGER CHIEF MERREN MCARTHUR IMPROVED HER TEAM’S PERFORMANCE".

The gist of the story is that a CEO made an error in leadership by expecting the directors to fall in behind her style without them understanding what she wanted. Then she learned and by eventually explaining and bringing them along, she got to where she wanted them to be. It's a "this was my mistake in leadership, and when learned what my mistake was I fixed it, and then I got what I want." The part about being a woman is actually a macguffin. Of course, if one reads the article through a veil of misogyny and male privilege, one won't recognize that. But, I guess that's to be expected, because to some people, anything that mentions being a woman must be about being a woman.
Ah come one.

Literally the first sentence in the article:
Former Tigerair Australia CEO Merren McArthur has said the management teams she worked with “didn’t understand” how to work under a female CEO, and explained how she got the best results out of her senior team.

Allow me to ask you this again:
Allow me to swap some genders in the article:
“I then had this aha moment. I thought, it’s because they’ve never been led by a man,” he revealed.

“They’ve come from largely operational areas… and they’ve always been led by women. So they haven’t been asked to collaborate to communicate, or [prioritise] teamwork, because that’s not that’s not often the key driver for female leadership.”

[...]

“Then I became more patient and adapted with them and had that conversation with them. And we had further workshops and when they really got it, they became a very, very high performing and very collaborative team,” he said.
Would such statements be worthy of print in 2022?
---------- ADS -----------
 
As an AvCanada discussion grows longer:
-the probability of 'entitlement' being mentioned, approaches 1
-one will be accused of using bad airmanship
photofly
Top Poster
Top Poster
Posts: 11306
Joined: Tue Jan 18, 2011 4:47 pm
Location: Hangry and crankypated

Re: Distorted Gender View at Lynx

Post by photofly »

Like I said, one understands what one wants to understand from the article. Textual analysis reveals the point of the article which is what I said it is.

To you question about what’s fit to print: what you wrote wouldn’t be a good article, and in fact it wasn’t printed; so I don’t understand your point.

If you think “equality” means simply replacing woman with man and judging, I think you need to improve your analysis!
---------- ADS -----------
 
DId you hear the one about the jurisprudence fetishist? He got off on a technicality.
digits_
Top Poster
Top Poster
Posts: 5930
Joined: Mon Feb 14, 2011 2:26 am

Re: Distorted Gender View at Lynx

Post by digits_ »

photofly wrote: Fri Jul 29, 2022 7:09 am To you question about what’s fit to print: what you wrote wouldn’t be a good article, and in fact it wasn’t printed; so I don’t understand your point.
That is exactly my point. It wouldn't be a good article, I'd even go as far as to say that it would be socially unacceptable to say things like that as a male CEO.

If Elon Musk were to go on record in an interview saying how he bought a company but it was ran by women who never have been managed by a man, and it took them quite a bit of effort to train them and for them to understand him, there would be a lot of -justifiable- backlash.

But if a woman says this about men, it's ok? Why?
---------- ADS -----------
 
As an AvCanada discussion grows longer:
-the probability of 'entitlement' being mentioned, approaches 1
-one will be accused of using bad airmanship
Handover
Rank 1
Rank 1
Posts: 45
Joined: Sun Nov 04, 2018 6:55 am

Re: Distorted Gender View at Lynx

Post by Handover »

Ever think that you two can both be right. It shouldn't be about gender, just bad leadership.

The media is making it all about gender and you are both falling for it.

We would probably have more female pilots if we stopped progressing this narrative that female pilots need all this help to become female pilots.
---------- ADS -----------
 
photofly
Top Poster
Top Poster
Posts: 11306
Joined: Tue Jan 18, 2011 4:47 pm
Location: Hangry and crankypated

Re: Distorted Gender View at Lynx

Post by photofly »

digits_ wrote: Fri Jul 29, 2022 7:16 am
photofly wrote: Fri Jul 29, 2022 7:09 am To you question about what’s fit to print: what you wrote wouldn’t be a good article, and in fact it wasn’t printed; so I don’t understand your point.
That is exactly my point. It wouldn't be a good article, I'd even go as far as to say that it would be socially unacceptable to say things like that as a male CEO.

If Elon Musk were to go on record in an interview saying how he bought a company but it was ran by women who never have been managed by a man, and it took them quite a bit of effort to train them and for them to understand him, there would be a lot of -justifiable- backlash.

But if a woman says this about men, it's ok? Why?
Self evidently, because the person saying it is in the rare position of authority given her gender. Dog bites man vs man bites dog.

However to an extent I agree with you. It would have been just as good an article if she had said “these people had never been led by someone like me who values open communication and cooperation more than they have been used to.” There is no need to genderize leadership styles.

To the extent that it promotes a stereotype of a man’s way of doing things vs a woman’s way, it’s actually not a feminist article at all. But then the woman never claimed to be a feminist, and perhaps she’s not.
---------- ADS -----------
 
DId you hear the one about the jurisprudence fetishist? He got off on a technicality.
digits_
Top Poster
Top Poster
Posts: 5930
Joined: Mon Feb 14, 2011 2:26 am

Re: Distorted Gender View at Lynx

Post by digits_ »

photofly wrote: Fri Jul 29, 2022 8:58 am
Self evidently, because the person saying it is in the rare position of authority given her gender. Dog bites man vs man bites dog.
Yes. But we shouldn't encourage a man to bite a dog, just like we shouldn't encourage a dog to bite a man. Both behaviours should be discouraged.
photofly wrote: Fri Jul 29, 2022 8:58 am However to an extent I agree with you. It would have been just as good an article if she had said “these people had never been led by someone like me who values opencommunication and cooperation more than they have been used to.”
Yes, that would have been much better! Focusing on her plans and accomplishments would have communicated that message much better.
photofly wrote: Fri Jul 29, 2022 8:58 am To the extent that it promotes a stereotype of a man’s way of doing things vs a woman’s way, it’s actually not a feminist article at all.
Agreed.
photofly wrote: Fri Jul 29, 2022 8:58 am But then the woman never claimed to be a feminist, and perhaps she’s not.
Could be, but I have a suspicion the author attempted to write it from that point of view though.
---------- ADS -----------
 
As an AvCanada discussion grows longer:
-the probability of 'entitlement' being mentioned, approaches 1
-one will be accused of using bad airmanship
tsgarp
Rank 7
Rank 7
Posts: 512
Joined: Thu Apr 01, 2004 3:18 pm

Re: Distorted Gender View at Lynx

Post by tsgarp »

photofly wrote: Thu Jul 28, 2022 5:24 pm
tsgarp wrote: Thu Jul 28, 2022 3:18 pm Any CEO doing his or her job properly: "Everybody must change to serve me"
Fixed that for you.
Nope (unless you’re a psychopath). The correct way for a CEO to think is: Everyone, including me, must change to accomplish the goal.
---------- ADS -----------
 
photofly
Top Poster
Top Poster
Posts: 11306
Joined: Tue Jan 18, 2011 4:47 pm
Location: Hangry and crankypated

Re: Distorted Gender View at Lynx

Post by photofly »

tsgarp wrote: Sat Jul 30, 2022 2:53 pm
photofly wrote: Thu Jul 28, 2022 5:24 pm
tsgarp wrote: Thu Jul 28, 2022 3:18 pm Any CEO doing his or her job properly: "Everybody must change to serve me"
Fixed that for you.
Nope (unless you’re a psychopath). The correct way for a CEO to think is: Everyone, including me, must change to accomplish the goal.
If you read the article, you'll see she did change. That's what the article is all about.
Then I became more patient and adapted with them...
You did actually read the article you're complaining about, didn't you?
---------- ADS -----------
 
DId you hear the one about the jurisprudence fetishist? He got off on a technicality.
User avatar
rookiepilot
Rank 11
Rank 11
Posts: 4403
Joined: Sat Apr 01, 2017 3:50 pm

Re: Distorted Gender View at Lynx

Post by rookiepilot »

Downunder wrote: Wed Jun 22, 2022 6:44 am https://australianaviation.com.au/2022/ ... tiger-ceo/

She also bankrupted the airline
That is what matters. All that matters, to investors and your employees. Male or female, do your job. Not your number of female directors or female executives.

Doesn’t matter much once the BK happens, does it?

Or get a bailout. Guess that didn’t happen this time.
---------- ADS -----------
 
Post Reply

Return to “General Airline Industry Comments”