Is One Hour of Fuel Remaining Over Toronto a Fuel Emergency

[pelmet]

C-GKQB, a DHC 8-402 aircraft operated by Porter Airlines Inc, was conducting flight POE483 from
Billy Bishop Toronto City Airport (CYTZ), ON to Montreal-Pierre Elliott Trudeau International Airport
(CYUL), QC. At approximately midway between CYTZ and CYUL, flight POE483 diverted back to
CYTZ as it could not land in CYUL due to the local weather conditions and surrounding airports
only accepting a limited number of diverted flights. While on approach into CYTZ runway 26, the
crew declared a fuel emergency as CYTZ is restricted to emergencies or medivacs only after 23:00
EDT. POE483 touched down at 23:02 EDT with approximately an hour of fuel remaining. The
aircraft taxied to the gate and deplaned without further incident.

[Dias]

No but it would be expensive for the company if they weren't allowed to land at CYTZ.

[lownslow]

Could their FOM call for when they declare a fuel emergency? What were their YTZ-area contingencies?

Figure fifteen minutes to YYZ plus forty five IFR reserve makes min fuel.

[digits_]

Could their FOM call for when they declare a fuel emergency? What were their YTZ-area contingencies?

Figure fifteen minutes to YYZ plus forty five IFR reserve makes min fuel.

Which would make it an emergency if they tried YYZ first and couldn't make it in there and then landed in YTZ with an anticipated less than final reserve fuel.

Declaring an emergency to land at a preferred closed airport instead of diverting to a more expensive one seems a bit of an abuse of the emergency protocols in place, to my non-porter eyes.

Was something else going on?

[linecrew]

Declaring an emergency to land at a preferred closed airport instead of diverting to a more expensive one seems a bit of an abuse of the emergency protocols in place, to my non-porter eyes.

Closing a perfectly serviceable airport can also be looked at as a trivial reason to do so depending on your perspective. Just saying...

[lownslow]

Could their FOM call for when they declare a fuel emergency? What were their YTZ-area contingencies?

Figure fifteen minutes to YYZ plus forty five IFR reserve makes min fuel.

Which would make it an emergency if they tried YYZ first and couldn't make it in there and then landed in YTZ with an anticipated less than final reserve fuel.

Declaring an emergency to land at a preferred closed airport instead of diverting to a more expensive one seems a bit of an abuse of the emergency protocols in place, to my non-porter eyes.

I have no Q time and obviously then have never flown for Porter. Having said that, I don’t think it’s terribly far fetched for them to have been showing a time over the runway of 2300 local when they were enroute and committed to that for operational reasons. It’s possible that by the time they realized that they would blow the curfew all that’s left was some FOM-defined min fuel quantity in which case the right answer is to declare it to ATC.

I think we may tend to overhype the term ‘emergency’ in why we do. Seems to me most want to hold it for times when survival is 50/50 at best, but really it just means that the crew’s options have become significantly restricted.

[digits_]

Declaring an emergency to land at a preferred closed airport instead of diverting to a more expensive one seems a bit of an abuse of the emergency protocols in place, to my non-porter eyes.

Closing a perfectly serviceable airport can also be looked at as a trivial reason to do so depending on your perspective. Just saying...

?
That's a completely different discussion. That doesn't give you the right to abuse an emergency call.

[digits_]

Could their FOM call for when they declare a fuel emergency? What were their YTZ-area contingencies?

Figure fifteen minutes to YYZ plus forty five IFR reserve makes min fuel.

Which would make it an emergency if they tried YYZ first and couldn't make it in there and then landed in YTZ with an anticipated less than final reserve fuel.

Declaring an emergency to land at a preferred closed airport instead of diverting to a more expensive one seems a bit of an abuse of the emergency protocols in place, to my non-porter eyes.

I have no Q time and obviously then have never flown for Porter. Having said that, I don’t think it’s terribly far fetched for them to have been showing a time over the runway of 2300 local when they were enroute and committed to that for operational reasons. It’s possible that by the time they realized that they would blow the curfew all that’s left was some FOM-defined min fuel quantity in which case the right answer is to declare it to ATC.

I think we may tend to overhype the term ‘emergency’ in why we do. Seems to me most want to hold it for times when survival is 50/50 at best, but really it just means that the crew’s options have become significantly restricted.

Fair enough.

I'm wondering what would have happened though if CYTZ was closed due to a disabled aircraft on the runway, and they had to divert to CYYZ. Would they have declared an emergency in that case? If yes, then it looks like it was a real emergency call. If no, then this was likely merely an 'emergency of convenience'.

[lownslow]

I'm wondering what would have happened though if CYTZ was closed due to a disabled aircraft on the runway, and they had to divert to CYYZ. Would they have declared an emergency in that case?

Would they or should they? I assume a good case could be made that from wherever they declared min fuel it was the right decision, again never having read Porter’s AOM, but sometimes crew are oddly hesitant to say they have a problem. Perhaps knowing the curfew time into the island influenced them to do the most correct thing, so then is that good or bad?

[digits_]

I'm wondering what would have happened though if CYTZ was closed due to a disabled aircraft on the runway, and they had to divert to CYYZ. Would they have declared an emergency in that case?

Would they or should they? I assume a good case could be made that from wherever they declared min fuel it was the right decision, again never having read Porter’s AOM, but sometimes crew are oddly hesitant to say they have a problem. Perhaps knowing the curfew time into the island influenced them to do the most correct thing, so then is that good or bad?

Assuming they could make CYYZ without cutting into final reserve -which seems likely-, the most correct thing would have been to divert to CYYZ, not landing on a -for them- closed airport. Impractical and costly for the company, but 'correct'.

ICAO says a fuel emergency should be declared if you expect to eat into your final reserve. If you're on final and you have 15 minutes of fuel before you hit your final reserve, according to ICAO, there is no need for an emergency.

The emergency system is there to provide priority assistance to aircraft in need, not to save the company on landing fees or transportation costs because your main base airport is closing.

[lownslow]

My point is it may have been a fuel low emergency no matter where they went. So it’s either, “I have this situation and I can land at home but some internet dorks are gonna get all judgy,” or, “I’ll divert, burn more fuel, have fewer options, and further complicate this already craptacular night.”

Does a Q automatically send a message to base with down time, fuel state, etc? Had this crew elected to keep quiet on the fuel emergency and just asked to divert to YYZ, they would have probably had an interesting conversation with their Chief Pilot to look forward to, or worse.

[Big Pistons Forever]

I have no issues with what this crew did. Getting tight on gas the safest course of action was to go to the Island. If it took declaring an emergency to do that well yah gotta do what ya gotta do.

[pelmet]

I have no issues with what this crew did. Getting tight on gas the safest course of action was to go to the Island. If it took declaring an emergency to do that well yah gotta do what ya gotta do.

I would think YYZ would be safer. Parallel long runways, ILS, better lighting, CFR, perhaps ATC control, etc. About one minute longer on a flight from YUL, although a min flap landing might save fuel which can't be done so easy on a short runway. Not so convenient though.

[goingmissed]

I would think YYZ would be safer. Parallel long runways, ILS, better lighting, CFR, perhaps ATC control, etc. About one minute longer on a flight from YUL, although a min flap landing might save fuel which can't be done so easy on a short runway. Not so convenient though.

Safer? If the island was unsafe for a Q400 operating normally, it wouldn't be used as a commercial airport with Q400s.

Had they filed YTZ as an alternate and it was accepted by NavCanada, the return to YTZ is acceptable. The min-fuel call would be required as per SOP.

[digits_]

I would think YYZ would be safer. Parallel long runways, ILS, better lighting, CFR, perhaps ATC control, etc. About one minute longer on a flight from YUL, although a min flap landing might save fuel which can't be done so easy on a short runway. Not so convenient though.

Safer? If the island was unsafe for a Q400 operating normally, it wouldn't be used as a commercial airport with Q400s.

Had they filed YTZ as an alternate and it was accepted by NavCanada, the return to YTZ is acceptable. The min-fuel call would be required as per SOP.

I don't think getting a flight plan accepted by navcanada carries much weight in this situation. They care about traffic, not your personal fuel situation or whether or not your eta is realistic.

[pelmet]

I would think YYZ would be safer. Parallel long runways, ILS, better lighting, CFR, perhaps ATC control, etc. About one minute longer on a flight from YUL, although a min flap landing might save fuel which can't be done so easy on a short runway. Not so convenient though.

Safer? If the island was unsafe for a Q400 operating normally, it wouldn't be used as a commercial airport with Q400s.

Had they filed YTZ as an alternate and it was accepted by NavCanada, the return to YTZ is acceptable. The min-fuel call would be required as per SOP.

Call it having better options for an aircraft with an actual emergency, which might be considered the ‘safest course of action”. In reality, I suspect there was nothing that fit the definition of an emergency, unless the fuel gauges were not indicating accurately, which I have had happen on a similar sized aircraft on descent.

[goingmissed]

Call it having better options for an aircraft with an actual emergency, which might be considered the ‘safest course of action”. In reality, I suspect there was nothing that fit the definition of an emergency, unless the fuel gauges were not indicating accurately, which I have had happen on a similar sized aircraft on descent.

I'm going to assume that you have not written your A's or IATRA as that is an area of study for those.

[cncpc]

Call it having better options for an aircraft with an actual emergency, which might be considered the ‘safest course of action”. In reality, I suspect there was nothing that fit the definition of an emergency, unless the fuel gauges were not indicating accurately, which I have had happen on a similar sized aircraft on descent.

I'm going to assume that you have not written your A's or IATRA as that is an area of study for those.

[cncpc]

Call it having better options for an aircraft with an actual emergency, which might be considered the ‘safest course of action”. In reality, I suspect there was nothing that fit the definition of an emergency, unless the fuel gauges were not indicating accurately, which I have had happen on a similar sized aircraft on descent.

I'm going to assume that you have not written your A's or IATRA as that is an area of study for those.

Why? I don't see where anyone asked you to assume anything?

[trey kule]

Digits…

. Which would make it an emergency if they tried YYZ first and couldn't make it in there and then landed in YTZ with an anticipated less than final reserve fuel.

I don’t think you may really understand the purpose of reserve fuel,( as so many others don’t as well.)

The reserve fuel is determined prior to departure and must meet the minimums required.

Once you are in the air the fuel is there for you to use. There is no minimum landing requirement.
I think with even a smidge of common sense most pilots can reason that the fuel is therefor you in case things don’t go quite as planned.

As to declaring an emergency when you have both fuel to an alternate and 45 mins, seems a bit odd, but some SOPs may specify it. Not really even Bingo fuel for this crew.

Fuel planning seems to be a weak point in training.