So now what? - Post Equipment Bid

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rudder
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Re: So now what? - Post Equipment Bid

Post by rudder »

confuzed wrote: Fri Jul 01, 2022 8:12 am Maybe most Canadian airlines will just follow suit to what Sunwing is doing and start making a case to bring in foreign pilots since there are no qualified applicants available. Wouldn't that also be interesting indeed.......
You mean the GGN/PIVOT playbook?
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Re: So now what? - Post Equipment Bid

Post by rudder »

Inverted2 wrote: Fri Jul 01, 2022 8:11 am What is starting pay these days? Something in the $85/hr range. I don’t think that’s going to cut it for attracting direct entry captains. Maybe a few but not the volumes needed in this bid.
Jazz would like Part 705 CA experience. Problem is that pay being offered is more like Part 703 CA (or less).

Should be interesting.
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RoAF-Mig21
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Re: So now what? - Post Equipment Bid

Post by RoAF-Mig21 »

confuzed wrote: Fri Jul 01, 2022 8:12 am Maybe most Canadian airlines will just follow suit to what Sunwing is doing and start making a case to bring in foreign pilots since there are no qualified applicants available. Wouldn't that also be interesting indeed.......
That's not going to happen, and if it does it will be insignificant. It's one thing to come here as a temporary contract worker, where you don't have to pay for a house, food and your hotel is paid for, vs coming here to start as an F/O; with a family...

The pay vs cost of living (in Canada) will not attract too many pilots, especially those that already have airline jobs flying elsewhere.
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lidi
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Re: So now what? - Post Equipment Bid

Post by lidi »

RoAF-Mig21 wrote: Fri Jul 01, 2022 8:13 am
lidi wrote: Fri Jul 01, 2022 8:09 am
flyingcanuck wrote: Fri Jul 01, 2022 2:34 am

Short about 400, ~150 CA spots. They'll prob hire people who can upgrade for now but I think they will have a problem finding it.
Thank you for the info much appreciated, should I throw in my resume I’m short of 700 hours with over 100 pic on twins ?
You never know... 700 hrs was not normally something Jazz would hire with (unless you come through the Seneca / other college program), but things are going to be very different with our industry, there is a chance you'll get hired, unless those 700 hrs are all single engine stuff (instructing). I don't see that as being very marketable for this job.
Appreciate the great feedback! I’m early 50s guy with over 30 years working in Canada’s airline industry working under the wing ops. I’m retiring very soon and I’d like to have one more crack at maybe flying a dash for a while. So maybe invest in more twin time or instruct ??

Happy Canada Day!
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rudder
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Re: So now what? - Post Equipment Bid

Post by rudder »

Here is some info for those that want to make choices based on fact and not rumour, innuendo, or heresay:


Pilot Position Bid 2022-01 Award

The Pilot Position Bid award has now been posted by the Company. The bid resulted in 485 Vacancies: 110 Captain and 375 First Officer.

Because the bid is awarded through a combination of automated and manual processes, mistakes are possible and sometimes corrections are required. The Collective Agreement allows for 15 days to advise of a dispute (5-5.05 and 26-2.01). Any questions, concerns or disputes should be brought to the attention of the Company and Crew Requirements Committee (CRC). If required, corrections will be made at the end of the review period.

The CRC recommends that until the final award is posted, Pilots should not consider any awarded Position as final and should not make any life plans until the final award is posted.

Effective Dates

When a Pilot Position Bid award has overlapping Effective dates with a previous Position Bid award. Section 5-9.01 and .05 address issues that may arise.

5-9.01: In the event the Effective Dates for a Position in the current bid are earlier than those in a previous bid, the Effective Dates for the affected Pilots shall be reassigned in order of seniority for Vacancies and in reverse order of seniority for Reductions.

5-9.05: When a Pilot holds two (2) or more Effective Dates it shall be the Company’s discretion whether the Pilot is trained in the previously Awarded Position.

There are quite a few pilots who have not started their Bid 2021-1 training. The Company has elected not to train them in the previously Awarded Position. The Bid 2021-1 Effective Dates for Pay Purposes are still effective.

Pilots who are operating as temporary upgrades from the COVID period (excluding E175 temporary upgrades) and were awarded First Officer Status in Bid 2021-1 will still have their Status change on the Effective Dates of Bid 2021-1.

Backfilling of Vacancies

The Company will be continuing new hire classes approximately every three weeks. Prior to offering vacant Positions to new hires, the Company is required to offer the vacant Positions to current pilots though the backfilling process. It is important that your Standing Bid reflects your desired Positions as there is no posting of vacant Positions prior to a backfill taking place.


Standing Bid

Once the review process is complete and the final award is published, it is recommended that Pilots revisit their Standing Bid site to ensure it reflects your wishes.

A reminder that if you are awarded a Vacancy in a backfill, you relinquish all vacation weeks on the day you start your training or Report Date, whichever is sooner. If you have a prepaid trip, wedding, birth, etc., factor this into your bidding decisions as there is no guarantee you will be able to get the same vacation on your new roster.

Position Award List

Pilots hired after June 5 will not show on the Position award list as they did not participate in the Bid. Pilots who were on any type of leave during the Pilot Position award and had not yet been processed under Section 5-11 of the Collective Agreement will not show on the list.

Report Date to Awarded Positions

The Company shall provide a Reporting Date, if different than the Effective Date, in writing to all Pilots who were awarded a Base change. The Reporting Date shall be no earlier than forty-five (45) days after the posting of the Pilot Position Bid award. This is especially important for Pilots who are changing bases and coordinating moving entitlements. Pilots who are moving must coordinate moving entitlements through the Company relocation coordinator.

If you have any questions, please email the CRC and include your employee number.

In solidarity,

Crew Requirement Committee:
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the-minister31
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Re: So now what? - Post Equipment Bid

Post by the-minister31 »

confuzed wrote: Fri Jul 01, 2022 8:12 am Maybe most Canadian airlines will just follow suit to what Sunwing is doing and start making a case to bring in foreign pilots since there are no qualified applicants available. Wouldn't that also be interesting indeed.......
The thing is running out of applicants is not the same as running out of qualified pilot in the country.

What Sunwing is doing is shameful, but the potential problem is not just with them but with whoever's gonna approve this.
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Re: So now what? - Post Equipment Bid

Post by RockSalty »

rudder wrote: Fri Jul 01, 2022 8:19 am
Inverted2 wrote: Fri Jul 01, 2022 8:11 am What is starting pay these days? Something in the $85/hr range. I don’t think that’s going to cut it for attracting direct entry captains. Maybe a few but not the volumes needed in this bid.
Jazz would like Part 705 CA experience. Problem is that pay being offered is more like Part 703 CA (or less).

Should be interesting.
I’m making a fair bit more in the left seat of a king air than they’re offering for their RJ skippers, let alone the poverty pay the right seaters are getting to live in places like yvr or yyz.

I’m sure I’m not the only one that’s not looking to move somewhere significantly more expensive to live for less than half the pay to come swing gear in a 705 machine. I mean hell, even the skipper pay if they were gonna offer people like me DEC is a hard sell. Somethings going to have to change sooner or later.
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Re: So now what? - Post Equipment Bid

Post by Ash Ketchum »

RockSalty wrote: Fri Jul 01, 2022 12:09 pm
rudder wrote: Fri Jul 01, 2022 8:19 am
Inverted2 wrote: Fri Jul 01, 2022 8:11 am What is starting pay these days? Something in the $85/hr range. I don’t think that’s going to cut it for attracting direct entry captains. Maybe a few but not the volumes needed in this bid.
Jazz would like Part 705 CA experience. Problem is that pay being offered is more like Part 703 CA (or less).

Should be interesting.
I’m making a fair bit more in the left seat of a king air than they’re offering for their RJ skippers, let alone the poverty pay the right seaters are getting to live in places like yvr or yyz.

I’m sure I’m not the only one that’s not looking to move somewhere significantly more expensive to live for less than half the pay to come swing gear in a 705 machine. I mean hell, even the skipper pay if they were gonna offer people like me DEC is a hard sell. Somethings going to have to change sooner or later.
Agree, not to mention the deductions. New captain pay at Jazz is closer to 60-70k gross in other places when you factor in what you take home.
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Re: So now what? - Post Equipment Bid

Post by daedalusx »

I used to be a taxi specialist at Jazz.

It would certainly take a special kind of idiot to possibly entertain a BOTL Jazz Direct Entry CA job for 85$/hr with 19 days of reserve a month living in the most expensive cities of Canada ...
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In twenty years time when your kids ask how you got into flying you want to be able to say "work and determination" not "I just kept taking money from your grandparents for type ratings until someone was stupid enough to give me a job"
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Re: So now what? - Post Equipment Bid

Post by RockSalty »

daedalusx wrote: Sat Jul 02, 2022 9:31 am I used to be a taxi specialist at Jazz.

It would certainly take a special kind of idiot to possibly entertain a BOTL Jazz Direct Entry CA job for 85$/hr with 19 days of reserve a month living in the most expensive cities of Canada ...
I knew it wasn’t good but it’s that bad??? 11 days off a month and only 85/hr? What’s min guarantee, 80 hours?

No thanks lol
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Re: So now what? - Post Equipment Bid

Post by cdnavater »

RockSalty wrote: Sat Jul 02, 2022 10:14 am
daedalusx wrote: Sat Jul 02, 2022 9:31 am I used to be a taxi specialist at Jazz.

It would certainly take a special kind of idiot to possibly entertain a BOTL Jazz Direct Entry CA job for 85$/hr with 19 days of reserve a month living in the most expensive cities of Canada ...
I knew it wasn’t good but it’s that bad??? 11 days off a month and only 85/hr? What’s min guarantee, 80 hours?

No thanks lol
Just to clarify, contractually it’s 12 guaranteed days off per month on reserve, so a 30 day month it’s 18 res, 19 on a 31 day month.
If you hold a block it’s dependent on how high of credit your flying is, could be 16 or more off with a senior block.
The variable being how long are you junior as DEC, with forecast movement, hired today, if you stay, you potentially have 500 pilots below you in a year.
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Re: So now what? - Post Equipment Bid

Post by Loon-A-Tic »

cdnavater wrote: Sat Jul 02, 2022 3:19 pm
RockSalty wrote: Sat Jul 02, 2022 10:14 am
daedalusx wrote: Sat Jul 02, 2022 9:31 am I used to be a taxi specialist at Jazz.

It would certainly take a special kind of idiot to possibly entertain a BOTL Jazz Direct Entry CA job for 85$/hr with 19 days of reserve a month living in the most expensive cities of Canada ...
I knew it wasn’t good but it’s that bad??? 11 days off a month and only 85/hr? What’s min guarantee, 80 hours?

No thanks lol
Just to clarify, contractually it’s 12 guaranteed days off per month on reserve, so a 30 day month it’s 18 res, 19 on a 31 day month.
If you hold a block it’s dependent on how high of credit your flying is, could be 16 or more off with a senior block.
The variable being how long are you junior as DEC, with forecast movement, hired today, if you stay, you potentially have 500 pilots below you in a year.
No one will ever have 500 pilots below them on their assigned aircraft type. It's your aircraft type that determines vacation schedule, monthly SDO's etc. Here's a really world Jazz example; an acquaintance of mine is in the top one third of the captain list on their assigned type, base but can't hold weekends off unless they bidding a reserve schedule.
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Re: So now what? - Post Equipment Bid

Post by the-minister31 »

Loon-A-Tic wrote: Sat Jul 02, 2022 5:54 pm
cdnavater wrote: Sat Jul 02, 2022 3:19 pm
RockSalty wrote: Sat Jul 02, 2022 10:14 am

I knew it wasn’t good but it’s that bad??? 11 days off a month and only 85/hr? What’s min guarantee, 80 hours?

No thanks lol
Just to clarify, contractually it’s 12 guaranteed days off per month on reserve, so a 30 day month it’s 18 res, 19 on a 31 day month.
If you hold a block it’s dependent on how high of credit your flying is, could be 16 or more off with a senior block.
The variable being how long are you junior as DEC, with forecast movement, hired today, if you stay, you potentially have 500 pilots below you in a year.
No one will ever have 500 pilots below them on their assigned aircraft type. It's your aircraft type that determines vacation schedule, monthly SDO's etc. Here's a really world Jazz example; an acquaintance of mine is in the top one third of the captain list on their assigned type, base but can't hold weekends off unless they bidding a reserve schedule.
Depends on how many guys will swoop on behind you too, if there are many vacancies, you can expect to get a better schedule as they fill the vacancies.

The pilots BOTL on the RJ at YYZ just have to wait a few months to get a bit more of what they want!
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Re: So now what? - Post Equipment Bid

Post by daedalusx »

My point is that if they want to attract the DECs, they need to raise the WAWCONS.... and not just for the DECs.

Look at what the American Regionals are offering:
1- Higher wages
2- A commuting schedule with POS J class DH from home to base.
3- Paid Hotels
4- Increased Per diem

Until then ... enjoy the labour shortage, constant irrop, canceled flights and unhappy customers :lol:

Why would anyone anyone anyone desire to spend 18-19 days a month in a concrete jungle aka shithole like YYZ having to spend 1/2 your salary on housing so that you can be on reserve 14 hours a day and operate from/to the worst airport in Canada for roughly 80K a year which is barely above poverty wages when everyone is hiring.

This shit ends when flight crews stop taking OT, stop extending duties and stop voting for contracts which will gives them below poverty wages in exchange for a flow spot to big Red.

But yeah start me at 140 per flight hour, a stable commuting schedule 4 on 4 off with POS DH with J class upgrade when there’s availability, paid hotels to accommodate early/late pairings and per diem that matches the justinflation and I’ll come fly whatever they want me to fly and I might even wear the hat in public and obey the grooming standards, if such thing still exists.
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In twenty years time when your kids ask how you got into flying you want to be able to say "work and determination" not "I just kept taking money from your grandparents for type ratings until someone was stupid enough to give me a job"
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Re: So now what? - Post Equipment Bid

Post by rudder »

daedalusx wrote: Sat Jul 02, 2022 7:40 pm
But yeah start me at 140 per flight hour, a stable commuting schedule 4 on 4 off with POS DH with J class upgrade when there’s availability, paid hotels to accommodate early/late pairings and per diem that matches the justinflation and I’ll come fly whatever they want me to fly and I might even wear the hat in public and obey the grooming standards, if such thing still exists.
Immutable force meet unmovable object.

Canada is not quite where US is (regional to regional poaching/competing for new-hires/rates of resignation) but the trend is certainly emerging.

Something has to give. I don’t quite see the shopping list being filled as written but compensation is certainly going to be top-of-list.

Thus far no signs of corporate enlightenment. Let’s see how long that is sustainable.
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Re: So now what? - Post Equipment Bid

Post by lidi »

rudder wrote: Sun Jul 03, 2022 7:23 am
daedalusx wrote: Sat Jul 02, 2022 7:40 pm
But yeah start me at 140 per flight hour, a stable commuting schedule 4 on 4 off with POS DH with J class upgrade when there’s availability, paid hotels to accommodate early/late pairings and per diem that matches the justinflation and I’ll come fly whatever they want me to fly and I might even wear the hat in public and obey the grooming standards, if such thing still exists.
Immutable force meet unmovable object.

Canada is not quite where US is (regional to regional poaching/competing for new-hires/rates of resignation) but the trend is certainly emerging.

Something has to give. I don’t quite see the shopping list being filled as written but compensation is certainly going to be top-of-list.

Thus far no signs of corporate enlightenment. Let’s see how long that is sustainable.
So are we going to see 500 hour pilots having a crack at Jazz and Porter positions or are they still sticking to hiring 1000 hour folks ?
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Re: So now what? - Post Equipment Bid

Post by lidi »

RoAF-Mig21 wrote: Fri Jul 01, 2022 8:13 am
lidi wrote: Fri Jul 01, 2022 8:09 am
flyingcanuck wrote: Fri Jul 01, 2022 2:34 am

Short about 400, ~150 CA spots. They'll prob hire people who can upgrade for now but I think they will have a problem finding it.
Thank you for the info much appreciated, should I throw in my resume I’m short of 700 hours with over 100 pic on twins ?
You never know... 700 hrs was not normally something Jazz would hire with (unless you come through the Seneca / other college program), but things are going to be very different with our industry, there is a chance you'll get hired, unless those 700 hrs are all single engine stuff (instructing). I don't see that as being very marketable for this job.
Hi Mig I sent you a PM
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lidi
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Re: So now what? - Post Equipment Bid

Post by lidi »

RoAF-Mig21 wrote: Fri Jul 01, 2022 8:22 am
confuzed wrote: Fri Jul 01, 2022 8:12 am Maybe most Canadian airlines will just follow suit to what Sunwing is doing and start making a case to bring in foreign pilots since there are no qualified applicants available. Wouldn't that also be interesting indeed.......
That's not going to happen, and if it does it will be insignificant. It's one thing to come here as a temporary contract worker, where you don't have to pay for a house, food and your hotel is paid for, vs coming here to start as an F/O; with a family...

The pay vs cost of living (in Canada) will not attract too many pilots, especially those that already have airline jobs flying elsewhere.
Hi Mig21, I sent you a message just wondering if you read it .
Thanks
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Re: So now what? - Post Equipment Bid

Post by ‘Bob’ »

lidi wrote: Sun Jul 03, 2022 7:59 am
rudder wrote: Sun Jul 03, 2022 7:23 am
daedalusx wrote: Sat Jul 02, 2022 7:40 pm
But yeah start me at 140 per flight hour, a stable commuting schedule 4 on 4 off with POS DH with J class upgrade when there’s availability, paid hotels to accommodate early/late pairings and per diem that matches the justinflation and I’ll come fly whatever they want me to fly and I might even wear the hat in public and obey the grooming standards, if such thing still exists.
Immutable force meet unmovable object.

Canada is not quite where US is (regional to regional poaching/competing for new-hires/rates of resignation) but the trend is certainly emerging.

Something has to give. I don’t quite see the shopping list being filled as written but compensation is certainly going to be top-of-list.

Thus far no signs of corporate enlightenment. Let’s see how long that is sustainable.
So are we going to see 500 hour pilots having a crack at Jazz and Porter positions or are they still sticking to hiring 1000 hour folks ?
Please no. We want wages to go up not down.

That means some dreams have to die. Like they do in the US because of the 1500 hour rule.
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Re: So now what? - Post Equipment Bid

Post by NovaBoy »

Jazz is gonna have trouble attracting DEC with their current wages. Why would someone with any heavy turboprop PIC go there now when they can skip the cue and go right to AC.

When I see companies advertising King Air left seat for $100-$130K and will fly you in and out for your rotation why would you take a pay cut and go live in YYZ?

Time to start coughing up some decent cash JAZZ and AC
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