Looks Like it is True That Not Advising of NADP1 Can Create a Conflict

[pelmet]

I aIways advise in Canada but figured it was more theoretical than actual. Other countries don't seem to have the advisory requirement. Do you tell American controllers or just don't do the procedure.

C-GEZD, an Air Transat Airbus A321, was operating as flight TSC865 from Calgary (CYYC), AB to
Toronto (CYYZ), ON. TSC865 departed CYYC on a standard instrument departure for Runway
35R and utilized Noise Abatement Departure Procedure (NADP) 1; ATC was not aware the flight
crew were performing NADP1. Following TSC865 was a WestJet B737-MAX8 C-GXAX, flight
WJA234. During the climb, WJA234 was faster than TSC865 and separation reduced to 2.3 NM
where 3.0 NM was required. The departure controller regained separation by turning WJA234 to
the left.

[ZBBYLW]

In the US I think the expectation is (unless expressly mentioned otherwise) to accelerate to 250 kts as soon as possible. I (and everyone I fly with) use NADP 2 on every take off in the US.

A few people would do noise 1s in Canada. But I know YYZ essentially says no when ever they are doing VFR seperation so unless we need a NADP 1 for terrain (YLW, YYJ 27 etc) most take offs are NADP 2s.

[confuzed]

Is it confirmed though that they were performing an NADP1 departure? After talking to a couple of friends there, they also use a preset speed of minimum clean speed until 3000 feet to respect the speed law order within 10 miles of the aerodrome. If the WJ flight accelerated to 250kts immediately after retracting flaps, it would not take long to catch up if they were flying 30ish knots faster than the 321.

[Hangry]

I don’t think a 321’s min clean speed is 200. Ever

[confuzed]

I don’t think a 321’s min clean speed is 200. Ever

Well, from what I hear 215-220 kts isn't unheard of depending on the load, regardless if the 737 accelerated to 250kts immediately after flaps up when the 321 was holding green dot until 3000 feet or 10 miles then it wouldn't take long for them to be overtaken. Not sure if they have other procedures that would have dictated an NADP1, but acceleration time alone could factor in here.

[pelmet]

Is it confirmed though that they were performing an NADP1 departure? After talking to a couple of friends there, they also use a preset speed of minimum clean speed until 3000 feet to respect the speed law order within 10 miles of the aerodrome. If the WJ flight accelerated to 250kts immediately after retracting flaps, it would not take long to catch up if they were flying 30ish knots faster than the 321.

Interesting about the desire to meet the 200 knot restriction. Is everybody out there ensuring that they do this?

[Hangry]

Neither required or attempted.

[altiplano]

We were told via bulletin that Transport has said 200 / min clean on departure from Canadian airports and to do it or potentially be violated.

Personally I think it's ridiculous, everywhere else in this world it's accelerate and go on departure, and even high speed <10K.

But here in Canada we're special.

[pelmet]

Neither required or attempted.

What about the regulation that says it is required.

[Hangry]

Incorrect. Min clean is different than 200.

[tbaylx]

Is it confirmed though that they were performing an NADP1 departure? After talking to a couple of friends there, they also use a preset speed of minimum clean speed until 3000 feet to respect the speed law order within 10 miles of the aerodrome. If the WJ flight accelerated to 250kts immediately after retracting flaps, it would not take long to catch up if they were flying 30ish knots faster than the 321.

Interesting about the desire to meet the 200 knot restriction. Is everybody out there ensuring that they do this?

Several Canadian carriers are compliant with that CAR602.32 (3) and operate at min clean or 200 until 3000' in Canada. Transat, SWG and Flair all have that in the SOP. Unsure if other airlines do that or how they'd be CAR compliant if they chose not to.

CAR 602.32
602.32 Airspeed Limitations
(1) Subject to subsection (2), no person shall
(a) operate an aircraft at an indicated airspeed of more than 250 knots if the aircraft is below 10,000 feet ASL; or
(b) operate an aircraft at an indicated airspeed of more than 200 knots if the aircraft is below 3,000 feet AGL within 10 nautical miles of a controlled aerodrome unless authorized to do so in an air traffic control clearance.
(2) A person may operate an aircraft at an indicated airspeed greater than the airspeeds referred to in subsection (1) if the aircraft is being operated in accordance with a special flight operations certificate - special aviation event issued pursuant to Section 603.02.
(3) If the minimum safe airspeed for the flight configuration of an aircraft is greater than the airspeed referred to in subsection (1), the aircraft shall be operated at the minimum safe airspeed.

[confuzed]

Incorrect. Min clean is different than 200.

No kidding, thank you for enlightening us

Even if a minimum clean is between 205-220, any aircraft accelerating to 250kts immediately after flap retraction not regarding the speed limitation faces the chance of overtaking an aircraft who IS following the speed order. They don't have to be necessarily doing an NADP1 to be overtaken.

Altiplano is quite correct, it is bizarre how in the modern age of the aircraft types that are operating that this speed restriction is even still unchanged in how long now? I suppose Transport Canada has other things to keep themselves busy...like making duty regulations that are beyond restrictive, talk about one extreme to the next.

[Hangry]

Pelmet was talking about the 200kts. That’s all I’m saying.

[pelmet]

Pelmet was talking about the 200kts. That’s all I’m saying.

200 knots or min clean is basically what I am talking about. My mistake for not being as precise as I could have been.

Now that we have that straight, back to the original question(as modified for clarity).

Interesting about the desire to meet the 200 knot restriction(or min clean). Is everybody out there ensuring that they do this?

[fish4life]

What would min clean on a fairly heavy 737 be?
What would a typical noise 1 climb out speed be in a 321 with takeoff flap be on a mid weight 321 be?
I could easily see a 40kt difference 220 for the 37 and 180 for the 321 which could cause issues

[ant_321]

What would min clean on a fairly heavy 737 be?
What would a typical noise 1 climb out speed be in a 321 with takeoff flap be on a mid weight 321 be?
I could easily see a 40kt difference 220 for the 37 and 180 for the 321 which could cause issues

At max weight the 737 min clean is 225kts.

[Col. Panic]

What would min clean on a fairly heavy 737 be?
What would a typical noise 1 climb out speed be in a 321 with takeoff flap be on a mid weight 321 be?
I could easily see a 40kt difference 220 for the 37 and 180 for the 321 which could cause issues

At max weight the 737 min clean is 225kts.

A heavy 321 might have a min clean speed over 240. Climbing at V2+10, you are probably down around 180 or less.