Air Canada Wins Toronto Gate Dispute With WestJet

Rebel · Post by **Rebel** » Mon Feb 23, 2004 2:44 pm

Air Canada Wins Toronto Gate Dispute With WestJet (Update1)
Feb. 23 (Bloomberg) -- Air Canada won rights to the most desirable gates at a new Toronto airport terminal, shutting out WestJet Airlines Ltd., after an Ontario judge ordered the airport authority to live up to its contracts.

The Greater Toronto Airports Authority must give Air Canada, which has been in bankruptcy protection since April 1, preferential use of 14 gates linked to the terminal via a bridge, Ontario Superior Court Justice James Farley said in a ruling e- mailed to Bloomberg by Air Canada.

``I regret to say, that I think it's a fair observation here, that trust and respect does not flow in either direction between (Air Canada) and the Authority,'' Farley said in a 29- page, hand-written ruling.

The airport authority agreed last month to give WestJet access to six of the gates at the new terminal after concluding that Air Canada wouldn't have enough flights to gain exclusive use of all 14 gates.

Air Canada changed its schedule and boosted the number of flights after it learned WestJet planned to move to the site.

N2 · Post by N2 » Mon Feb 23, 2004 3:59 pm

Well maybe all WestJet has to do is wait, if AC keep going the way they are maybe WestJet will get the gates in the end anyways.

My personal experience as a paying passenger......worst flight experience was AC, best was CAI. I've heard lots of good things about WestJet and JetsGo from people who have recently flown with them. These are people who used to fly with AC but got fed up with the way they were being treated.

... · Post by **...** » Mon Feb 23, 2004 4:22 pm

was there even any contest?

Rebel · Post by **Rebel** » Mon Feb 23, 2004 5:36 pm

Some of you complainers, perhaps you should try Ryanair..All their new aircraft are coming minus the window shades and no reclining seats. Oh yeah no seat pockets or overhead bins either. It’s all bottom line folks.

Be careful what you wish for, you may just get it..

Brize · Post by **Brize** » Mon Feb 23, 2004 5:56 pm

Poor treatment at AC is uncalled for even though it seems to happen quite often. Feeling like I'm on a bus, munching on a 2 cent pack on peanuts and listening to jokes, doesn't make me feel any better though. But then again, I guess I bought into it trying to save some cash.. and I dont think much of it.
But I don't compare the two companies because they operate under different business models. That said, I would love to have both companies exist in the future and share market share equally.
I know the service can suck, and something should be done about it. But, do we really want a national carrier to be a budget airline?

Snarky · Post by **Snarky** » Mon Feb 23, 2004 8:14 pm

I'm not all that familiar with the main terminal at Lester B. but are people going to buy tickets at AC instead of WJ because of better gates? i can see how a good gate is preferential but i can't see this affecting ticket sales, i'd rather save a few bucks and walk the extra distance. Seems to me if AC was promised these gates this ruling isn't a big surprise.

Don't get me wrong, i am a big fan of westjet, but i think they'll do well in T.O. regardless of their gates.

Cheers

JigglyBus · Post by **JigglyBus** » Mon Feb 23, 2004 8:54 pm

Rebel,

What do you mean complaining??

Sounds like you're complaining. You complain about no-recline seats, and no window shades, on an airline which has tickets on sale for L1.29

And thats not a typo, 1 pound 29 pence. Thats about $2 Canadian.

And its not just some crazy special, check out ryanair.com, they have hundred of fairs under $50.

If its gonna save me $798.71 on a $800 ticket, you can keep the window shades, the recliners, the drinks, the food, the carpet, the overhead compartments, the toilets, the stewees, hell, you can even keep the seats, just give me milk crate and a seat belt.

Complaining you say???

Rebel · Post by **Rebel** » Tue Feb 24, 2004 7:13 am

posted 24th February 2004 13:16
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Hmm copied from another forum...

"RYR now charging for Cabin Crew training...

P.S. I was pricing return trip to Prague ex. DUB just now.

ryr+easyjet = £655(stopover in London)

EI £575 direct..... with blinds and headrest covers, and maybe even a cuppa coffee!"

What's this I hear no more carry on baggage, unless you pay more? And this with a reduced check-in baggage allowance..Ah who needs baggage anyhow it just interferes with the turn-around-times.

Golly those box seats are looking better all the time.

JigglyBus · Post by **JigglyBus** » Tue Feb 24, 2004 8:20 am

Rebel,

You're comparing apples and oranges.

Ryanair does not fly to Prague, so obviously, they are not going to be the cheapest to get there.

The won't be the cheapest to get to Japan either.

My point is, STRICTLY from a pax point of view, if it's $800 for a flight with nice seat, and a meal, or $1.29 for the cattle car, 99.999% are going to take the cattle car, every time.

I'm not supporting hiring practices, or pay for training bs, all I'm saying is that PAX complaining about headrest, and luggage constraints when they pay $1.29 for their ticket is f-in stupid.

DragEraser · Post by **DragEraser** » Tue Feb 24, 2004 9:37 am

N2 · Post by N2 » Tue Feb 24, 2004 11:06 am

Rebel I wasn't complaining about the aircraft or anything like that I was simply saying that my worst flight experience was with AC. Ignorant crew, sloppy service (and I don't expect much) and just a general feeling of being treated like I should be honoured to be able to fly with them. Well suits me fine because I will do whatever possible to stay off of AC now, all that is except fly on a carrier from outside this country. Support our own but not when it comes to AC.

Regruntled · Post by **Regruntled** » Tue Feb 24, 2004 12:44 pm

Last time I flew Air Canada it took 28 hours to get from YVR to YQT. Not mechanicals or weather delays, just general screw ups. We took 3-4 hour delays on what ended up being 4 stops enroute each for different reasons. Nobody apologized, or even warned me in advance that this was going to happen; I had to figure it all out myself. They overnighted me in YWG (acted like they were a benevolent uncle or something when they gave me the voucher) refused to give me my bags so I could shower (some security excuse or something) and offered me a $7 meal voucher to a restaurant that was closed and would not reopen until after my 5am departure the next day. When I asked about the meal voucher the next day the guy gave me the old "you don't expect me to CARE do you" and dismissed me to serve the next guy in line. Left YWG for YQT via YYZ(!!) figuring I'd eat something enroute. That's what AC is good for right? They're the ones that give you all that gourmet food to go with the jacked-up ticket price right? Wrong! Now they're CHARGING for breakfast. No cash? No food! But the peanuts sure were good!

Fast forward to YYZ and I'm told that I may not get on this flight because it's oversold with PAYING passengers. Ok, I may be on standby, but I sure as heck PAYED for the flight I was supposed to be on YESTERDAY. But I'm still treated like "standby scum". So we depart YYZ for YQT right on time, 3 hours late.

Now, I don't care what terminal WJ's at; I don't care if they board their planes from the parking lot. I don't even care if a WJ fare is $50 more than AC's latest "now that we have some competition" seat sale, I'm still going to fly WJ for the superior service and friendlier staff.

End of rant.

Go Guns · Post by **Go Guns** » Tue Feb 24, 2004 1:58 pm

Interestingly enough, it sounds as if Air Canada wanted very little to do with those gates until Westjet announced their intentions to move in. Whatever the outcome now, Toronto seems to be the center where Air Canada concentrates it's worst customer service. As mentioned above, I'm sure travellers through Pearson would go out of their way to avoid the Big Red. Westjet will do fine regardless of the gates they get.

N2 · Post by N2 » Tue Feb 24, 2004 3:14 pm

Why do people still regard AC as the Holy Grail in Canadian aviation? Sure they are top wage earners(or so I am told) but that is going to change and soon.

I just hope that companies like WJ, SSV and JetsGo remember all the bad mouthing that AC and its employees have done against them if they (AC) suddenly find themselves out of work.

Rebel · Post by **Rebel** » Tue Feb 24, 2004 3:44 pm

Regruntled

I’ve been around this business a long time and all I can say is that you sure do tell a "t a l l" tale.

I'm rather surprised that some folks on this forum claim to be pilots. Hmm no wonder they didn’t get an interview.

Thompsonav8rboy

Perhaps you failed to read the remarks made by Judge Farley. Quote" WJ claims that AC's motive in bringing this motion is to avoid competition. One may similarly question whether WJ's motives were innocent"

Judge Farley also went on to say that AC was involved since the beginning in the planning and testing of the new terminal. WJ only appeared last December to have any interest in the new terminal. (Financial Post, Tuesday, February 24, 2004 FB6)

You should really get out more..

N2

Please due us a favor and don't fly with us, we've all seen your type. The fact is I've had to deplane a few like you, oh and they lost in court...Since I know a few pilots at WJ I'm pretty sure that they wouldn’t be to thrilled to have you on board either.

JigglyBus

Yep I have to agree with you the $2 folks are the one's that complain the most. I have a real concern at what the future pay for pilot's is going to be down the road when the fare been charged is cheaper then taking a city bus.

Regruntled · Post by **Regruntled** » Tue Feb 24, 2004 4:33 pm

Rebel wrote:Regruntled

I’ve been around this business a long time and all I can say is that you sure do tell a "t a l l" tale.

Well it's been a while since I've been called a liar, especially by someone who wasn't there/doesn't know the story. I'm going to let that one go because I'm not too interested in a protracted argument. One thing that is pretty hard to deny is an increasing sentiment in the travelling Canadian public that they would rather fly WJ. Originally it was for the price; now the level and quality of service is an equally compelling factor. Go figure.

Rebel · Post by **Rebel** » Tue Feb 24, 2004 4:43 pm

I stand by my remarks…Any experienced airline pilot would tell you the same thing

Right Seat Captain · Post by **Right Seat Captain** » Tue Feb 24, 2004 5:06 pm

Not to bash AC, but the people have spoken. Its all about the public when it all boils down to it. And whether its from AC's bad press, the arrogant reputation, or the fact that their level of service is dropping rapidly below what the price is worth, AC is a gonner unless something miraculous happens. But AC's been in trouble for so long, that its unlikely they'll ever make a comeback.

But when it comes to the gates at Pearson, it is obvious that AC, regardless of how much they cared about it before WJ came along, did have claim to the gates. WJ was probably just seeing how much AC could be pushed around in their current state, and letting AC know WJ is catching up.

N2 · Post by N2 » Tue Feb 24, 2004 5:20 pm

Yep Rebel you fit the AC bill perfectly.....arrogant know it all! When are you going to get the hint? Just because you fly for AC your not a god! Shut your mouth about making person attacks on here tough guy!

Rebel · Post by **Rebel** » Tue Feb 24, 2004 5:22 pm

WJ will likely base its beefed-up Toronto presence at Pearson's Terminal 3, which was probably the plan all along.

IMHO I can't see it's in anybodies best interests to see AC fail, so this being Canada, it won't happen. As usual it will be a made-in-Canada solution understood and satisfying no one.

Besides AC’s people are for the most part made of the right stuff so the changes that are required will be made.

Rebel · Post by **Rebel** » Tue Feb 24, 2004 5:25 pm

N2

You're out of your league on this forum please go play in your own sandbox..

N2 · Post by N2 » Tue Feb 24, 2004 5:27 pm

Rebel where is your home base? Your personal attacks are childish and uncalled for! Nobody attacked you personally so why do you feel the need to lash out at people on a personal level. Must be little man syndrome, the fact remains that AC is getting a well deserved reputation from people with attitudes such as yourself. You really want to be a hero try attacking someone face to face with your stupid derogatory comments, my bet is you'll be picking yourself up off the ground! One thing we teach over and over is self control but guys like you just make my blood boil!

Rebel · Post by **Rebel** » Tue Feb 24, 2004 5:35 pm

N2

Your e-mail:” You attack me personally here and there was no need for that! Who the hell do you think you are? I'm in YYZ so if you want to meet up I'm all for it."

Is this an example of your immaturity?

Reb

N2 · Post by N2 » Tue Feb 24, 2004 5:39 pm

I've said all I am going to say to you Rebel and the offer stands! Next time you attack someone on a personal level the way you did me just remember some of us won't take it lying down!

Just to set the record straight too Mr. REB as you like to call yourself, that flight when the crew were absolutely horrible I never said a word, nor did I file a complaint with AC. So how you tell my "type" when I keep to myself is a mystery to me. All I said was after seeing the way the service has declined I stopped flying with you people.
My sister who does business in Montreal on a regular basis has also quit flying AC for the exact same reasons and now enjoys the train thank you very much! Keep treating people the way you fired off at me and you might find yourself out of work sooner than you think.

Right Seat Captain · Post by **Right Seat Captain** » Tue Feb 24, 2004 5:41 pm

Rebel wrote:IMHO I can't see it's in anybodies best interests to see AC fail, so this being Canada, it won't happen. As usual it will be a made-in-Canada solution understood and satisfying no one.

Besides AC’s people are for the most part made of the right stuff so the changes that are required will be made.

I would agree, that in the short term, it may be detrimental to see AC go, but definately in the long run, its best to put AC out of its misery. Whatever solution is found will likely haunt the comany forever.

I really think AC was doomed from the get go. Of all the once crown corporations turned private corporations that exist in this country, none seem to be in the best of shape. Many have been surviving like AC has for some time, but they've never been able to fully get rid of the massive debt they were once allowed to have as a company of the government. The the company is sold to make the government some money, but the debt still remains, living only on exchanging assets. Petro Canada is also headed in the same direction unfortunately.

By eliminating the problem with Canada's aviation industry, AC, another company, or companies would take its place, since business doesn't just disapear. Don't get me wrong, the customers are there, but AC has been and still is too mismanaged to save itself. So just kill it and let fresh blodd come in that doesn't have the same inherited problems.