New Duty Regs

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thepoors
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New Duty Regs

Post by thepoors »

With the new CARs duty regs coming into effect for 704 in Dec 2022, I'm wondering if anyone knows what flight depts are planning on doing for scheduling.

Specifically regarding 700.119:
An air operator shall provide each flight crew member with the following time free from duty:
(a) at least 36 consecutive hours in 7 days;
and
(b) at least 3 consecutive days in 17 days.

The crucial part there being the "and". In my understanding that would mean no crew member could ever be scheduled for a period of more than 5.5 consecutive days.

Thoughts?
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JHR
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Re: New Duty Regs

Post by JHR »

"You didn't work the last three days. Those were your days off"
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CL-Skadoo!
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Re: New Duty Regs

Post by CL-Skadoo! »

JHR wrote: Sat Jan 29, 2022 2:53 pm "You didn't work the last three days. Those were your days off"
Winner, winner, commissary for dinner!

The person is correct! 8)
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JHR
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Re: New Duty Regs

Post by JHR »

You only get the leftover sandwiches if you dumpster dive in the galley!
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schnitzel2k3
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Re: New Duty Regs

Post by schnitzel2k3 »

thepoors wrote: Sat Jan 29, 2022 8:38 am
The crucial part there being the "and". In my understanding that would mean no crew member could ever be scheduled for a period of more than 5.5 consecutive days.

Thoughts?
lol. Schedule, hah, do 't make me laugh, where we're going there are no schedules.
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Rocinante
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Re: New Duty Regs

Post by Rocinante »

thepoors wrote: Sat Jan 29, 2022 8:38 am With the new CARs duty regs coming into effect for 704 in Dec 2022, I'm wondering if anyone knows what flight depts are planning on doing for scheduling.

Specifically regarding 700.119:
An air operator shall provide each flight crew member with the following time free from duty:
(a) at least 36 consecutive hours in 7 days;
and
(b) at least 3 consecutive days in 17 days.

The crucial part there being the "and". In my understanding that would mean no crew member could ever be scheduled for a period of more than 5.5 consecutive days.

Thoughts?
I swear I'm not trying to stir the pot - Would a 7/7 still not work? Say you got off Monday at 1200. Wednesday 0000 is your 36hours, correct? Slap on another 72 hours, so now we're at Saturday 0000. Does that not cover, if the INTENT of the wording, is such that they cannot overlap, or am I misreading?
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digits_
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Re: New Duty Regs

Post by digits_ »

I am sure the days off can overlap, but you still need 36 hours off in 7 days. So you can't work for 7 days straight.
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Col. Panic
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Re: New Duty Regs

Post by Col. Panic »

thepoors wrote: Sat Jan 29, 2022 8:38 am With the new CARs duty regs coming into effect for 704 in Dec 2022, I'm wondering if anyone knows what flight depts are planning on doing for scheduling.

Specifically regarding 700.119:
An air operator shall provide each flight crew member with the following time free from duty:
(a) at least 36 consecutive hours in 7 days;
and
(b) at least 3 consecutive days in 17 days.

The crucial part there being the "and". In my understanding that would mean no crew member could ever be scheduled for a period of more than 5.5 consecutive days.

Thoughts?
700.119 applies specifically to Medevac operations. If you are not flying medevacs, 700.29 applies…
700.29 (1) An air operator shall not assign a flight duty period to a flight crew member, and a flight crew member shall not accept such an assignment, if, as a result, the member’s number of hours of work will exceed

(a) 2,200 hours in any 365 consecutive days;

(b) 192 hours in any 28 consecutive days;

(c) 60 hours in any 7 consecutive days if the air operator has provided the member with the following time free from duty:

(i) 1 single day free from duty in any 168 consecutive hours, and

(ii) 4 single days free from duty in any 672 consecutive hours; or

(d) 70 hours in any 7 consecutive days if the air operator has provided 120 consecutive hours free from duty, including 5 consecutive local nights’ rest, in any 504 consecutive hours and if

(i) the member is not assigned early duty, late duty or night duty,

(ii) the member is not assigned a flight duty period greater than 12 hours, and

(iii) the member’s maximum number of hours of work is 24 hours in any consecutive 48 hours.
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schnitzel2k3
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Re: New Duty Regs

Post by schnitzel2k3 »

The problem with managed jets and creating a schedule is the deep greed within the management companies; they need to be able to send out the jet on charter asap so they can get their 10%. They also actively promote incredibly low salaries and minimum crewing to save face with owners.

If they create a schedule then that jet is effectively uncrewed for say, as you suggested, 7 days. In addition some of the more impulsive owners like to travel last minute without any regard for the people they affect, so listing the crew off puts them into either hiring contract crew (good luck finding anyone at a reasonable rate) OR cancelling the crews time off. Easier solution, don't worry about giving them any 'real' time off.

Trust me, sometimes trying to squeeze 3 days in after 14 days is near impossible for these jokers, let alone doing a 7 and 7. You will usually have more than 7 days off in a row but you wont know you did until after the fact lol.

Don't ask how vacation works. My essential employee survey was not very positive about how our employer has handled stress or time off during covid.
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Rocinante
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Re: New Duty Regs

Post by Rocinante »

digits_ wrote: Wed Feb 02, 2022 6:30 am I am sure the days off can overlap, but you still need 36 hours off in 7 days. So you can't work for 7 days straight.
I'm a bit of a toolbox and misread. Thanks!
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Col. Panic
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Re: New Duty Regs

Post by Col. Panic »

Per my post above, if you can promise that there will be no early, late, or night duty, and no duty day is greater than 12 hours, you can certainly do a 7/7… or even a 14 on/7off (16 on/5 off is possible as long as the 5 off includes 5 “local night’s rest”). Which would work well if they want to crew a machine with 3 pilots.

But if they want to continue the practice of only having two pilots, it gets a lot more complicated, or they have to deal with less availability.
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Bug_Stomper_01
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Re: New Duty Regs

Post by Bug_Stomper_01 »

schnitzel2k3 wrote: Sat Jan 29, 2022 9:15 pm
thepoors wrote: Sat Jan 29, 2022 8:38 am
The crucial part there being the "and". In my understanding that would mean no crew member could ever be scheduled for a period of more than 5.5 consecutive days.

Thoughts?
lol. Schedule, hah, do 't make me laugh, where we're going there are no schedules.
🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣
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NovaBoy
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Re: New Duty Regs

Post by NovaBoy »

Wait a minute, you mean other corporate pilots have a schedule? Where is this fantasyland
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Bug_Stomper_01
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Re: New Duty Regs

Post by Bug_Stomper_01 »

schnitzel2k3 wrote: Wed Feb 02, 2022 1:31 pm The problem with managed jets and creating a schedule is the deep greed within the management companies; they need to be able to send out the jet on charter asap so they can get their 10%. They also actively promote incredibly low salaries and minimum crewing to save face with owners.

If they create a schedule then that jet is effectively uncrewed for say, as you suggested, 7 days. In addition some of the more impulsive owners like to travel last minute without any regard for the people they affect, so listing the crew off puts them into either hiring contract crew (good luck finding anyone at a reasonable rate) OR cancelling the crews time off. Easier solution, don't worry about giving them any 'real' time off.

Trust me, sometimes trying to squeeze 3 days in after 14 days is near impossible for these jokers, let alone doing a 7 and 7. You will usually have more than 7 days off in a row but you wont know you did until after the fact lol.

Don't ask how vacation works. My essential employee survey was not very positive about how our employer has handled stress or time off during covid.
I can’t think of a more abusive employer in aviation than management companies
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kweekwee
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Re: New Duty Regs

Post by kweekwee »

the crucial part here is that all of us went over our max duty time last week :twisted:
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TrilliumFlt
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Re: New Duty Regs

Post by TrilliumFlt »

In recent conversations with friends in the corporate sector I get the sense management agencies are slowing coming to the realization that going forward 3 pilots per airplane is now a reality they must accept and adopt. Is this anyone else's sense or just wishful thinking by those of us in the trenches.
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AirportCoffee
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Re: New Duty Regs

Post by AirportCoffee »

I think it might be wishful thinking to an extent. Some owners dialed back their flying to pure 604 and kept their two pilots. Others bumped up the charter availability to justify having the 3rd guy. It's like a box of chocolates...
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thepoors
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Re: New Duty Regs

Post by thepoors »

TrilliumFlt wrote: Tue Feb 07, 2023 10:42 am In recent conversations with friends in the corporate sector I get the sense management agencies are slowing coming to the realization that going forward 3 pilots per airplane is now a reality they must accept and adopt. Is this anyone else's sense or just wishful thinking by those of us in the trenches.
Seems to be sinking in. From what I'm seeing and hearing, any decent company is trying to go 3 crew now. It makes total sense - aircraft can have full coverage and we can have a life, book vacation, etc.

Biggest obstacle at the moment is training availability, that's slowing things down. But I'm cautiously optimistic that things are heading in the right direction and owners/management are seeing the benefits of 3 crew over the marginal costs.
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TrilliumFlt
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Re: New Duty Regs

Post by TrilliumFlt »

So I understand the "worked" days in a row, maximum of 7 but how about "scheduled days" in a row is this also 7 ?
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Re: New Duty Regs

Post by bobcaygeon »

thepoors wrote: Sat Jan 29, 2022 8:38 am With the new CARs duty regs coming into effect for 704 in Dec 2022, I'm wondering if anyone knows what flight depts are planning on doing for scheduling.

Specifically regarding 700.119:
An air operator shall provide each flight crew member with the following time free from duty:
(a) at least 36 consecutive hours in 7 days;
and
(b) at least 3 consecutive days in 17 days.

The crucial part there being the "and". In my understanding that would mean no crew member could ever be scheduled for a period of more than 5.5 consecutive days.

Thoughts?
TC has advised/acknowledged that this is a typo. It should be "or" not "and". It's back to what the previous regs were.
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