How did Air Canada end up with embarrassing pay?
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How did Air Canada end up with embarrassing pay?
Hello all,
I am strongly considering a career in aviation but I'm having a tough time wrapping my head around the starting pay
How on earth did this happen?
My dad was able to put me in contact with a couple pilots and they said the union signed a 10 yrs contract before the biggest pilot shortage ever?
Who makes these decisions and are they still involved with the union (or association as someone pointed out, I guess the pilots organize golf tournaments?!)
I am strongly considering a career in aviation but I'm having a tough time wrapping my head around the starting pay
How on earth did this happen?
My dad was able to put me in contact with a couple pilots and they said the union signed a 10 yrs contract before the biggest pilot shortage ever?
Who makes these decisions and are they still involved with the union (or association as someone pointed out, I guess the pilots organize golf tournaments?!)
Re: How did Air Canada end up with embarrassing pay?
Ah ouiiiii,
Most of the architects of this are either management now or still in ACPA...including my beloved base chair in YUL and his buddy out west...
$hitshow is an understatement
Most of the architects of this are either management now or still in ACPA...including my beloved base chair in YUL and his buddy out west...
$hitshow is an understatement
Re: How did Air Canada end up with embarrassing pay?
Doesn’t help that the majority keep voting these people in and that the majority keep voting yes whenever the MEC recommends a contract.
ACPA leadership squandered the only time the membership voted no and voted 98% for a strike mandate. Unfortunately, after the Government got involved, most of the members were too afraid, or too greedy, to book off sick or take part in any job action. (Like not taking Drafts or just working the bare minimum).
Much more to the story. 27 pilots. Letters on files. LRD,
ACPA leadership squandered the only time the membership voted no and voted 98% for a strike mandate. Unfortunately, after the Government got involved, most of the members were too afraid, or too greedy, to book off sick or take part in any job action. (Like not taking Drafts or just working the bare minimum).
Much more to the story. 27 pilots. Letters on files. LRD,
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Re: How did Air Canada end up with embarrassing pay?
What makes you think you would get into AC? Counting chickens are we?FelixGustof wrote: ↑Sun Jul 17, 2022 7:58 pm Hello all,
I am strongly considering a career in aviation but I'm having a tough time wrapping my head around the starting pay
How on earth did this happen?
My dad was able to put me in contact with a couple pilots and they said the union signed a 10 yrs contract before the biggest pilot shortage ever?
Who makes these decisions and are they still involved with the union (or association as someone pointed out, I guess the pilots organize golf tournaments?!)
There are varied options and you shouldn’t use it as a litmus test. Other companies do pay better.
Do it if you want to.
Otherwise you sound like a troll. (rank of 0). Bruh.
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Re: How did Air Canada end up with embarrassing pay?
It's true, I got some work ahead before "getting into AC"
But let's call a spade a spade here. How hard could it be? The pilots voted in this pay. How smart are pilots?
Plumbers & flight attendants are doing better
But let's call a spade a spade here. How hard could it be? The pilots voted in this pay. How smart are pilots?
Plumbers & flight attendants are doing better
Re: How did Air Canada end up with embarrassing pay?
Well this is totally legit.
Anyways, on a related note... Does anyone have any records of historical pay at AC? 90's? 80s? Back to Canadian and C3? Would be interesting to see.
In the 90's, before I got into aviation as a career, I remember reading article with an AC payscale. Can't remember where I got it, or any of the data now but I do remember that year 1, and only year 1, was disproportionately low, about half of year 2. It was explained as an offset to training cost.
An acquaintance's dad, retired long ago from AC, might not even be around anymore, had a Rolls Royce, a huge house in the water here, and a house in Hawaii. Without knowing anything else about their finances, I always wondered if a top scale AC salary finishing in the 80's or 90's would have supported that alone. However given RR's weren't really a thing after the 70s I'd bet on a bit of legacy money.
Anyways, on a related note... Does anyone have any records of historical pay at AC? 90's? 80s? Back to Canadian and C3? Would be interesting to see.
In the 90's, before I got into aviation as a career, I remember reading article with an AC payscale. Can't remember where I got it, or any of the data now but I do remember that year 1, and only year 1, was disproportionately low, about half of year 2. It was explained as an offset to training cost.
An acquaintance's dad, retired long ago from AC, might not even be around anymore, had a Rolls Royce, a huge house in the water here, and a house in Hawaii. Without knowing anything else about their finances, I always wondered if a top scale AC salary finishing in the 80's or 90's would have supported that alone. However given RR's weren't really a thing after the 70s I'd bet on a bit of legacy money.
Re: How did Air Canada end up with embarrassing pay?
Lol,FelixGustof wrote: ↑Mon Jul 18, 2022 1:04 pm It's true, I got some work ahead before "getting into AC"
But let's call a spade a spade here. How hard could it be? The pilots voted in this pay. How smart are pilots?
Plumbers & flight attendants are doing better
I like your style. Right to the point. And your right.
What happened was Bankruptcy protection in and around 2003. 15% pay cuts.
Then in 2012 ACPA negotiated more pay cuts in the form of, Rouge, FO and RP pay cuts, Four year flat pay and loss of pension. This was voted down by the pilots but because ACPA had already signed a memorandum of agreement, an arbitrator rammed it down our throat.
Then in 2014 ACPA decided it would be a good idea to lock in all these losses for 10 years at 2% increases.
The Governance review of ACPA by outside professionals predicted this.
In our view, status quo will lead to sub optimal collective agreements, increased member dissatisfaction, and a reduced ability to promote safety.
Hoping that economic conditions improve with Air Canada so more can be demanded at the bargaining table is not a sound go forward strategy.
Since then we have agreed to more pay cuts at Cargo.
In the mean time the rest of North America set out to regain their losses from Bankruptcy and have been very successful.
In the attached file the top pay scale is Air Canada wages in 2003. The bottom scale is the 2003 scales inflation adjusted to today.
ACPA’s performance can not be graded anything better than an F- over the last two decades. There is a reason the company doesn’t want ALPA and will go to great lengths to prevent it if it can.
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- ACPA pay table 2003 INFLATION ADJUSTED march 2022.pdf
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Re: How did Air Canada end up with embarrassing pay?
Thanks FanBlade and also to everyone who sent me PMs. Been an interesting read about how B777 pilots get paid less than truck drivers
So my next question is, is the association that brought all this - are the same people involved?
If so, do these people at least organize good golf tournaments if they can't bring in good contracts?
So my next question is, is the association that brought all this - are the same people involved?
If so, do these people at least organize good golf tournaments if they can't bring in good contracts?
Re: How did Air Canada end up with embarrassing pay?
That payscale is very eye-opening. Almost in line with global compensation. (But they still make more in Ethiopia. )
I can't help to think how much higher the national averages would be across the board right now if AC didn't start driving them down from the top.
Too bad there will have to be a breaking point before they go back up, I just wonder what that'll be.
A lot more mid-time pilots called it quits during the pandemic than guys gaining experience to fill their spots. This was the pattern with every labour sector with less-desirable, exploitive jobs. People were handcuffed and just trudged on, until they were forced to pause and regroup, leading to this critical labour shortage. Hearing of so many people in aviation realize there are jobs with much better quality of life for the income after the forced cord-cutting is pretty telling.
I can't help to think how much higher the national averages would be across the board right now if AC didn't start driving them down from the top.
Too bad there will have to be a breaking point before they go back up, I just wonder what that'll be.
A lot more mid-time pilots called it quits during the pandemic than guys gaining experience to fill their spots. This was the pattern with every labour sector with less-desirable, exploitive jobs. People were handcuffed and just trudged on, until they were forced to pause and regroup, leading to this critical labour shortage. Hearing of so many people in aviation realize there are jobs with much better quality of life for the income after the forced cord-cutting is pretty telling.
Re: How did Air Canada end up with embarrassing pay?
Oh yes some are still around...and even got "recalled" with 68% of their base asking for them to goFelixGustof wrote: ↑Tue Jul 19, 2022 8:26 pm Thanks FanBlade and also to everyone who sent me PMs. Been an interesting read about how B777 pilots get paid less than truck drivers
So my next question is, is the association that brought all this - are the same people involved?
If so, do these people at least organize good golf tournaments if they can't bring in good contracts?
Welcome to the flag carrier of Canada. Instead of having leaders for the industry, there are blood suckers out there looking out for themselves & their buddies in management
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Re: How did Air Canada end up with embarrassing pay?
We have a union with a bad case of Stockholm Syndrome. Their performance over the last two decades has cost us hundreds of millions in lost WACON.
The first thing the Company managers do when there is new union blood, is to start the relationship by inviting them out for drinks, hot-tub parties and the Company box at the Skydome. They make "friends". It's really cute. Then those managers explain how how much better the Company would be if the pilots and union would "cooperate" and "collaborate" with the Flight Ops management.....after all a "healthy Company" can expand, get more aircraft and hire more pilots. Everyone advances up the pay scale that much faster. Capitulate, cooperate and "work with us" not against us is the theme. Sounds good in theory, right?
That is EXACTLY where we have gone off the rails. It's purely a "take" relationship. Our LEC's and MEC's have become middle managers that manage our expectations lower in return for some "greater good" that NEVER seems to arrive. It's a "one way" relationship. Not to mention that by becoming buddies and "known collaborators" with Flight Ops management is really, really healthy when a Flight Ops management job opens up. There is little oversight into the union reps behavior behind the scenes as each one signs a NDA with the Company. NDA's are notorious for "covering up" and being used as a reason to prevent transparency. There is NO ACPA rep that needs to know the intimate details of the inner workings of our airline. NOT ONE. We are not qualified to assess or comment on any aspect of it.
It is NOT our unions reps job to manage the airline alongside Flt Ops management, it is to SOLELY represent the pilot group, improve or enhance WACON and keep us in the loop. It's a really cozy relationship that is the exact opposite of what we need to move forward as a unified body. I'm sure the Delta and United groups use us as a case study on what EXACTLY COULD GO WRONG and just how badly ACPA itself has gone off course.
Overall, the problem is that its a chess match, and ACPA can't play worth a $hit. Pilots are just a number. We exist as employees only by necessity. Every plane needs two at the controls when any plane is in motion. CARS and scheduling determine how many pilots are required based on requirements from the fleet planning department. What our brilliant leadership at ACPA believes is that if we somehow "keep giving", the group will be "rewarded" with growth and stability. That has NEVER worked out for us. The Company will get as big as fleet planning desires, with Shareholder approval, not ours. We are bit players in a much larger game. The Cargo sham 10% "give" is a perfect example of how we were once again "duped".
Once we understand that we are just numbers...and a "necessary cost" only, we can get back to pursuing a goal that is enshrined in our Constitution. Improving pilot wages and working conditions. As long as ACPA and their capitulating, colluding, NDA ways go unchallenged, WE WILL LOSE, AND CONTINUE TO LOSE.
We need ADULT supervision at our union, PRONTO. But it's always "just over the horizon". Sunny ways.
The first thing the Company managers do when there is new union blood, is to start the relationship by inviting them out for drinks, hot-tub parties and the Company box at the Skydome. They make "friends". It's really cute. Then those managers explain how how much better the Company would be if the pilots and union would "cooperate" and "collaborate" with the Flight Ops management.....after all a "healthy Company" can expand, get more aircraft and hire more pilots. Everyone advances up the pay scale that much faster. Capitulate, cooperate and "work with us" not against us is the theme. Sounds good in theory, right?
That is EXACTLY where we have gone off the rails. It's purely a "take" relationship. Our LEC's and MEC's have become middle managers that manage our expectations lower in return for some "greater good" that NEVER seems to arrive. It's a "one way" relationship. Not to mention that by becoming buddies and "known collaborators" with Flight Ops management is really, really healthy when a Flight Ops management job opens up. There is little oversight into the union reps behavior behind the scenes as each one signs a NDA with the Company. NDA's are notorious for "covering up" and being used as a reason to prevent transparency. There is NO ACPA rep that needs to know the intimate details of the inner workings of our airline. NOT ONE. We are not qualified to assess or comment on any aspect of it.
It is NOT our unions reps job to manage the airline alongside Flt Ops management, it is to SOLELY represent the pilot group, improve or enhance WACON and keep us in the loop. It's a really cozy relationship that is the exact opposite of what we need to move forward as a unified body. I'm sure the Delta and United groups use us as a case study on what EXACTLY COULD GO WRONG and just how badly ACPA itself has gone off course.
Overall, the problem is that its a chess match, and ACPA can't play worth a $hit. Pilots are just a number. We exist as employees only by necessity. Every plane needs two at the controls when any plane is in motion. CARS and scheduling determine how many pilots are required based on requirements from the fleet planning department. What our brilliant leadership at ACPA believes is that if we somehow "keep giving", the group will be "rewarded" with growth and stability. That has NEVER worked out for us. The Company will get as big as fleet planning desires, with Shareholder approval, not ours. We are bit players in a much larger game. The Cargo sham 10% "give" is a perfect example of how we were once again "duped".
Once we understand that we are just numbers...and a "necessary cost" only, we can get back to pursuing a goal that is enshrined in our Constitution. Improving pilot wages and working conditions. As long as ACPA and their capitulating, colluding, NDA ways go unchallenged, WE WILL LOSE, AND CONTINUE TO LOSE.
We need ADULT supervision at our union, PRONTO. But it's always "just over the horizon". Sunny ways.
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Re: How did Air Canada end up with embarrassing pay?
The union thinks they are intelligent as Steven hawking but in reality, all you’re dealing with is spineless individuals.
The company isn’t that bad. They want to change flat pay. The union wants to revisit the contract in its entirety versus address inflationary pressures on the most junior members.
ACPA CEO looks out for himself and his son’s career progression and “almost nothing else matters”.
The company isn’t that bad. They want to change flat pay. The union wants to revisit the contract in its entirety versus address inflationary pressures on the most junior members.
ACPA CEO looks out for himself and his son’s career progression and “almost nothing else matters”.
Re: How did Air Canada end up with embarrassing pay?
What does the ACPA CEO have to do with collective bargaining and the bargaining agenda? He is an unelected staffer (albeit very highly paid).bobcatdriver wrote: ↑Sat Jul 23, 2022 8:38 pm
ACPA CEO looks out for himself and his son’s career progression and “almost nothing else matters”.
p.s. I note that ACPA members cannot work past 65. Clearly does not apply to the ACPA CEO.
Re: How did Air Canada end up with embarrassing pay?
Don’t be that naive, company wants something in return to change the flat pat. There is no good will here, if there was when they were making record profits from 2016 to 2018 they would’ve fixed the flat pay then.bobcatdriver wrote: ↑Sat Jul 23, 2022 8:38 pm
The company isn’t that bad. They want to change flat pay. The union wants to revisit the contract in its entirety versus address inflationary pressures on the most junior members.