Be honest now... -a rant.

[Airtids]

For all you guys/gals who are out there slogging around in archaic equipment, for (next to) no money, paying your dues ( by the way), I've got a question: How much of your willingness to accept your present situation is based on the oft repeated "Love of flying", and how much is based on the potential to make the big coin at the top end of this profession. Are you really that enamored with the image you have of yourself, or the feeling you get from 'piloting an aircraft', to sacrifice a real paycheck, job security, self respect, etc. because you love to fly , or is it because you see the last few years of your career as being the big payback? How many of the older, successful, folks here will admit to monetary promise as being a prime motivator for keeping you subjugated to this business through tough times?

I'll be the first to step up and admit that I put up with all the BS at the bottom end of this industry because I saw it as a means to an end. $3.25 per hour over the course of my first year as a Class IV was likely to be (and has been) offset by a higher than normal wage further down the line. I still don't make what I think I'm worth, but I'm now in a situation where the only one to blame for that is myself, and my killer lifestyle offsets the lack of pesos.

Of course I love doing what I do for a living, but I also love the time I spend on my mountain bike, and the time I spend back-country ski touring, but I never considered the Red Bull downhill circuit, or guiding for no money, because there is still relatively no $$ at the top end. Certainly nothing like what you're able to make at the top end of this business, if you ever get there. Don't quote me how much the World Downhill Champion made last year, because over the years a senior Captain at a Major will still bank more.

I'm not here to judge anyone for their motives in putting up with everything an entry level pilot puts up with, just trying to understand it a little better. I'm constantly reading on this forum how folks at the bottom end are justifying their crappy situation with "I just wanna fly, man!", and my first reaction is to call BS. Besides Top Gun, I blame the oversupply of pilots on the 'perception' (spread by many, but blamed on the flightschools- different topic) of big money being doled out at the front end of big, shiney airplanes. Maybe I'm the only one... but I doubt it.

Help me out here.

[R2000/1830]

For me its the love, if I was not flying for a "living" I would be doing it as a hobby. Even if I had a killer paying job in the real world it would not offset the cost of recreational flying.

[Shiny Side Up]

It could always be worse Airtids, you could be having to doing real work for a living.

Personally I still love to fly, I love airplanes and never pass up the chance to go for a ride (as long as its with relatively sane people) especially if its in something different. But then that's just me. If there's a chance to go someplace different and see something new, that rocks like eggs on toast. I still hold on to the thought I might be able to snatch a ride in a warbird or something similarly cool (so far the closest has been sitting in the cockpit of a P-47)

Maybe step back and take a look at it differently man, life can always be a lot worse.

[Cat Driver]

Asking a pilot why he / she just can't stay away form aircraft is like asking them why they can't stay away from having sex.

Cat

[SplitS]

The answer for me is a bit of both. I enjoy what I do but I also like $$ and hope to have more $$ as the years go on. Its not one or the other - they just go hand in hand.

I wouldnt be answering the pager at 3am if I wasnt getting paid for it - nor would I fly to Moosonee the rest of my days if I didnt think I would get ahead and make more $$ and have a better lifestyle.

I love flying but if Im to buy that damn Porsche 911 Ive always wanted Im gonna have to start making the green....

[Rowdy]

I got lucky to grow up with a father in the airlines and his best friend in the bush. Both ends of aviation enthralled me.. the bush more so.

It has never been about the money or the top end for me. My father can't understand that and it drives him nuts. But to each their own. I'm in it solely for the enjoyment of flying/operating an aircraft in some fairly entertaining environments (Read: natives and frozen tundra)

Life is not about the destination.. It's all about the journey!

Have a safe Flight,

Rowdy

[teacher]

That's where this industry has us all by the balls, nobody is willing to stand up and say, "not anymore will I be treated or payed like this". If EVERYONE stopped accepting to work for this pitance or just doing it for "the love of it" than things would eventually (over lots and lots of time) get better. I know it's cliche on this board and in aviation in general BUT we as pilots are our own worste enemy.

The supply and demand game can always be turned around if most agreee to stand up for themselves. Unfortunatly we all know that it will never happen. There will always be the many that say "this is just the way it is so do the job or quit" or worse yet, do the job for you when you refuse.

I wish it could be different but alas, this is the nature of flying in North America.

[scubasteve]

Its not just flying tho. As Tid's alluded to, backcountry guides as well as skydivers, skiers, mountain bikers and other careers that stem from a passion do not normally pay well. As I posted recently, I gave up the best job I've ever had as a ski patroller because I am worth more than I was getting and there are plenty of eager replacements. My dream/goal is to fly bush in the summer and work at a ski resort or similar in the winter but those thoughts dont pay the mortgage or grocery bills or the loan payments that were necessary to get the job in the first place.

[. ._]

I just want a job I don't mind to much, and flying should do the trick. (We'll see- gotta get a flying job first. ) I have no plans for the majors, as I'm too old, and I think that would be boring flying anyways. I have no problem living on the brink of poverty for a while. If I ever need some cash, I can always grab a job in a machine shop for a year or so, or drive a transport.

There ya go airtids. An honest reply.

-istp

[Older Returning Pilot]

I have read this forum also with great interest, money is always at the root of everything, if you do not have it you are miserable and if you do, you are more than likely miserable too because you had to over work to get it. There is one post that I totally agree with and that is I fly because I love to fly, not because I see myself as a captain at the majors, I also am too old to ever make it there. I just moved out of Fort McMoney, because yes the money was great, but the toll it took on me and my life was destroying me, I flew very little because there was always that overtime shift, I could get, I was robbing myself of my dream by thinking i needed to make 150-200k a year. Now that I am back in civilisation and flying whenever and whatever I can, it has gotten rid of the stress in my life, I know longer have constant colds, and constantly miserable, and on a flying morning, I am out of bed at the crack of dawn, preparing myself to do what I really want to do, and that is fly. I guess what I am really trying to say here, everyone on these forums, their dream is to be flying, we are all not to be major players, and yes I do agree, we should be paid our worth for the job we are doing, just remember it is your dream to be a pilot, F/A or whatever, not to many people overall can say that.

[bandaid]

Though I am not a pilot I can tell you the only reason that I have stayed at my job for over 25 years now is the pension. I would leave tomorrow if it were not for that pension.
I suppose that the original reason that I stayed is because it is an interesting job with lots of opportunity to help people. I got to drive fast, fly occassionally, do some interesting things like repelling, longline, auto extrication,ect. The days of excitement are pretty much over now and I do the job for the pension, sad really.

[Starving4Hours]

Personally, I got into it because just thinking about flying made my heart feel like it would burst with pure joy. Still does if I can quite the rumbling of my empty stomach and the 'how're you going to pay rent?' voice long enough to sit and think.

Why I stay in it is a lot more complex.
-First of all I considered following in my sister's footsteps and becoming a wealthy engineer, working 9-5 for sweet coin and I found the long term prospect nauseating.
-Then there's the hope that there's got to be someone out there who respects the value of a passionate pilot who takes great pride in making sure they do their job to the absolute best of their ability every time.
-I've invested 60K and refuse to walk away and waste all those hard earned tips
-I can't stand the idea of being old and knowing I did a job I hated for forty years just to buy the house that I'll die in and a vehicle without wings.
-I couldn't afford to go back to school anyways after gambling it all on my passion.
-Too many punkass kids these days. Someone's getta whip them into shape
-Giving up would mean my Grandmother was right about "a woman's place in this world" and if that's the case I'll volunarily decrease the surplus pilot population by one right now
-The most influential people in my life (other than my increadible family) have been a coach and a teacher. I'd like to honour them by passing that on to others
-When I'm inverted my brain's far to buisy to worry about life's little issues
-Every time one of my students nails something that they were struggling with I know I have made a lasting impact on someone's life and that's worth more than all the money in the world to me.

I hope I'm not causing anyone to lose their lunch, I know how valueable those noodles are but I'm being completely honnest here

[Dockjock]

Got into it for the love, stayin for the eventual money.

If that eventual prospect of a big paycheque down the line ($150K+) were ever to disappear, I would be gone from line flying in a heartbeat. Sad? Not really, I don't think. I'm past the days of getting a boner every time I have a good landing. Tids' analogy of a career ski guide is spot-friggin-ON. I LOVE skiing too, but there is no way in hell I would do it as a career for what amounts to basically no money. Nope, get me a job with good pay, 3-4 weeks off a year, holidays off, etc and I could easily go fly/ski in my spare time. Money, now is the key driver to sticking with this, essentially, ridiculous business. Right now we're in a key phase of recruitment and I can say with reasonable certainty that if I don't get my "shot" at a major in the next 3 yrs, I'll probably go back to school for a career change- maybe even aviation related, because it would be a shame to waste my experience up to now for nothing. But hey that's just me and different strokes for different folks.

[cyyz]

Got into it for the love, stayin for the eventual money.

If that eventual prospect of a big paycheque down the line ($150K+) were ever to disappear, I would be gone from line flying in a heartbeat..

Can I have your job, and shall I come in on monday or at the end of the week?

[xsbank]

I've been in this business for probably a lot longer than most of you, except of course, with respect, Cat, and the two bits of advice I have after 35 years of flying is to SURVIVE and SAVE SOME MONEY FOR RETIREMENT. Survival is moot; but even if it means no ketchup with your KD this week, 5 beers instead of 6 tonight, one missed payment on the student loan, put something aside every day!

Unless your company has a pension plan that is just golden, most of you will not get to the majors for various reasons and we will find that at age 60, flying a Beav isn't much fun anymore, or maybe not even possible anymore 'cause we're too sore, can't get in the a/c anymore, or are too deaf and can't hear the engine run, or are too silly to walk on the wings scraping ice. Also, you will be FORCED to retire at 65 unless you are very lucky (like, again, Cat). MOST of the companies you will work for as you claw your way up the ladder are Mickey Mouse, have no benefits, and will likely fail. Ergo bingo, no pension. None.

And who pays for the KD if you lose your medical? Who buys the groceries for the wife and kids?

Take a moment to calculate how miniscule a pension you will get if you are earning $60,000 per year, which some of you think is good. I worked at one company for 20 years and when I moved on I got to transfer about $100,000 to another plan - whoop-de-doo. That will probably give me just enough to buy food, unless I can get the plan to grow in the next few years. And with the stock market where its been, I have lost 6 or 7 year's growth that I'll never get back.

Canada Pension pays LESS THAN RAMP WAGES (like, probably, half) and if you have to rely on it you will find that you really will have to do without ketchup on your KD, or eat cat food (sorry) until you die. And live in your sister's basement.

You will need hundreds of thousands of dollars to retire. If you start at age 20 or so, and you are disciplined, you will be able to make it - if you don't end up at the majors and take some other path.

Remember, Canada taxes you higher AFTER you retire! If you are on a CP and you work, 100% of what you make is removed from your pension - 100% of what you get as a Walmart greeter or as a crossing guard!!! Just think of that while you eat your beans. If you have a good RRSP, your CPP and OAP will be clawed back, effectively taxing you at 75%. Remember, if you get a good flying job you will end up in the 'middle class,' and that is the target class for taxation in this country.

Buy a house when you can, and rent it out when you can't live in it.

I have had way better than average jobs as a pilot (although by choice, never the majors), and I will never retire with $10,000 a month like my buddy just did from AC. He drove busses (Boeings, actually) all his life, while I would have cut my throat for the boredom of it. 35 years of dreary work, 13 hour flights to Hong Kong and back again, jet-lagged for weeks at a time, and now he gets the reward. Worth it? You have to decide.

But don't forget, even AC went bankrupt once, and only barely survived after lots of blood on the floor. One of my friends is a retired United Airlines captain and his pension has just recently been cut by 60%, and there's a high probability he will lose it all. US is different than Canada, but remember Eron, remember Bre-ex?

Nothing is inevitable except death, taxes and Kraft Dinner.

[compilot]

I got into aviation because I loved to fly, I got out of it because I was tired of working for illegal wages and being treated like dirt.

I invested 72,000 into aviation and tried for 5 years--hoping that it would get better, but it never did. Now I'm making more than that in the oil and gas industry (weekends off) and can fly whenever and where ever I want with the potential to make WAY more then I could have ever dreamed in the aviation industry.

Its the best of both worlds!

[Cat Driver]

xsbank said:

" Also, you will be FORCED to retire at 65 unless you are very lucky (like, again, Cat). "

I must comment on this, yes, I have been more than lucky for the way my career turned out.

I can not give a reason why I flew for so many years because it never entered my mind to do anything else would be my best answer.

I have been self employed for many years and do not have a pension, however I did manage to aquire assets that are not in my name but I can use them to live for a long time should it come to that.

And I decided many years ago that I would retire at 70 regardless of what I was flying, I am going to stick to that decision and have told the people that I fly for that I will not renew any licenses or authorizations that I now hold. I will do some part time stuff when needed but no more contracts away from home.

There have been many bitter memories during my career of being screwed by lots of scum operators, however I have also worked for the best and I try and remember only the good.

I shall also state that nothing affected me as deeply as the feeling of betrayal I have for TC to have been screwed so badly because thay had to protect a couple of their own. Especially when I think about how I was so dumb as to believe that as long as you try and work within the regulations you will not have to worry.

If I were 18 again and had to choose another career I would choose a life of crime because now that it is to late I realize that in Canada only the crimminals have rights...oh and the politicians but I would not be able to sink that low.

So yes I am lucky to have what I now have but I sure worked long and hard to get here.

Cat

[xsbank]

Good comment on crime - I would have a grow-op (or 10) because the cops wouldn't have anything to do without drugs, and the courts don't care. Ever wonder how all those AMG 55s are financed? Not too many pilots own them, methinks.

[SkyWolfe]

For love or money

Both! Well, I want the cash at the end, but, also, it so fun. Besides, I work at Home Depot... NOTHING can be worse then that, so overall if Im still not making any money for a while, at least Im doing something I love!

[Airtids]

If I were 18 again and had to choose another career I would choose a life of crime because now that it is to late I realize that in Canada only the crimminals have rights...oh and the politicians but I would not be able to sink that low.

Cat

You are diferentiating between the criminals and politicians as if they're not one and the same!

Many good comments. xsbank, thanks for that. Your post included some really good advice for folks just coming into this industry, or any industry for that matter. My business and my home are my pension plan. What I have to worry about is keeping my business viable, if not successful/profitable so that, hopefully, it is worth something when it comes time to hang 'em up. Although as I said, I still really enjoy what I do, and consider myself lucky to have been able to do this and take care of my family as well.

I too got into this for the passion, but in all honesty, what kept me in it when times were bleak and paychecks meager and far between, was the prospect of payback- passion was for kids; I still love to see it, and always hope the best for them, but don't hesitate to let them know that their chance of making it to the left seat of an airliner in this country is about the same of their chance of making it to the NHL. I'm not trying to be a downer, I'm just trying to tell them the truth. I was prepared to sacrifice in the short term because I saw redemtion in the form of the top of the industry. It's a bitch of a road to get there though.

As time progressed, however, what became immediately important was a need to support my family, be debt free, and actively working towards a secure future. In my case, it meant doing it for myself. Still just tryin' to get by. Getting rich was/is just an unlikely dream without a 6-49. I learned a long time ago that there's more to life than money. Believe me, Shiney, not a day goes by that I don't recognise how good we've got it in the grand scheme of things. I've been (un?)lucky enough to have spent a good deal of time in 'developing' countries. That being said, you still have to pay the bills, and be thinking about the future the way xsbank has pointed out.

I have accomplished everything I could ever hope for in this business- travelled, flown as a professional, done a good job, and flown the machines I've wanted to fly (although in some cases, not for long enough) . I stopped chasing the big paycheck when I went into business for myself and made the decision that lifestyle was far more important than riches.

But the truth is, that if this business was ever NOT able to take care of the things that are important for me, I'd drop it like a hot potato. Remember, I'm talking about the business, not the aviating. Like compilot, I'd definitely continue to fly because I'm hooked. I've flown into the sunset on top of a broken undercast. I guess I'm just skeptical when folks claim they are toughing it out in a crappy situation because they are so passionate about being a pilot. I can't help but feel there is something else at play there, or are they really martyrs?

As for the grow-ops: too true. Look at where I'm from. I'm one of the few folks I know who DOESN"t have a light or two in the basement. Pisses me off a bit at this time of year when the other boys are loading their brand-new sleds into the back of their brand new pickups after a tough season of picking $100 bills of the trees.

[Cat Driver]

Don't forget our talk about bringing in the European business Airtids.

Cat

[Airtids]

Working on it here too, and things are progressing. Got a lunch date with a former student flying Dash 8 in the UK right now on Thursday. Great kid, grew up outside London, but loves B.C., and is keen to help out. I'll send you a PM after we speak. Gotta figure he might know a pilot or two...

[planett]

Pension, security, schedule, lifestyle, and pay are all things that are offered at the right flying job. Unfortunately airlines are not the places to be looking for these things. Specialty flying (ie. not aviaton companies) is the place to look today. I stumbled across mine virtually by accident.

No need to take a 5 to 7 year pay cut to sit in a 737 or 320 hoping your future increases aren't negotiated away. The drawback? I don't fly a big jet internationally, only a small jet to less well known destinations in North America. There is a whole world outside of airlines. I found this when I was looking for something else, I am no longer looking.

[Airtids]

That's a good point, planett. I see it all too often when kids come walking in our door with the Airline 'blinders' on. We try and do a good job of opening them up to the multitude of different avenues this crazy industry offers. The truth is, though, that regardless of which path you choose, "It's a long way to the top if you wanna rock 'n' roll"! What keeps people motivated on that road is what I'm curious about.

[Shady McSly]

I don't know about this industry - especially when it's minus-'whatever' and it takes an hour and a half to get the plane ready for a 20-minute flight!

I think we all put up with the crap because we assume the grass will eventually get greener with time. Like our 'golden job' is just waiting around the next corner or the next year.

I'll wait to see whats around the next 'corner' but that's it...