Blending Jazz and AC. It's time.

[Malfunction]

Any truth to a alpa and acpa in partnership to help with lack of crews? Maybe a flow program no more interviews?

[WellThatAgedWell]

Why is the lack of crews a union problem? It's a company problem.

Pay pilots more, and you will have more resumes on the desk.

The costs to Learn to fly are increasing, and wages are stagnant. Why the hell would anyone invest in this career? You have a government actively trying to reduce our industry. You have aircraft manufacturers and airlines working towards reducing pilots with technology. I'd say, don't invest in airlines, let them invest in you if they need you.

[daedalusx]

Get rid of the flat pay, the vaccine requirement and give 15 GDOs per month and you might be amazed at the pile of resume of 6000+ hours 705 capt, jet experience, etc.

[rudder]

Get rid of the flat pay, the vaccine requirement and give 15 GDOs per month and you might be amazed at the pile of resume of 6000+ hours 705 capt, jet experience, etc.

Eliminate Flat pay? 100%. Nobody else in North America does that. 4 years? Are you kidding? WB FO under $100k? Go to US pay model - first year salary then type specific hourly (sorry day/night/nav/overseas fans).

Vaccine? I think your beef is with the libs.

15 GDO’s per month? That means 15 days worked per month for everybody - senior and junior. This experiment has already happened on the NB fleet.

The AC application drawer is full. However, a path to a decent T4 by year 2 (non-upgrade) would go a long way towards stimulating higher experience applicants.

The AC CBA is long overdue for an overhaul into the 21st century. Might take new players to make that happen.

[YC87DRVR]

Any truth to a alpa and acpa in partnership to help with lack of crews? Maybe a flow program no more interviews?

Keep dreaming.

[rudder]

Any truth to a alpa and acpa in partnership to help with lack of crews? Maybe a flow program no more interviews?

I could see an outcome in the future where AC buys Jazz from CHR. CHR would then derive revenue from AC solely through aircraft lease agreements to both Jazz and perhaps mainline.

However, this would not be the first time that AC owned its Express operation and it has not previously resulted in integration. I doubt that would be the case now even if AC acquired Jazz.

What might develop is akin to the former AC relationship with SKV - AC provides a greater level of operational services thereby eliminating Jazz infrastructure and presumably reducing overhead costs at the Express level.

As for ACPA/ALPA - it is a soap opera that is now decades old. There is always hope that the parties will begin a meaningful dialogue, but hope is not a plan.

[sportingrifle]

Malfunction….No.
In the short to medium term things are actually headed in the other direction. And until Jazz can crew itself to the point where it isn’t cancelling 30-50 flights a day, I don’t see it changing….but I am not making those calls.

[daedalusx]

Get rid of the flat pay, the vaccine requirement and give 15 GDOs per month and you might be amazed at the pile of resume of 6000+ hours 705 capt, jet experience, etc.

Eliminate Flat pay? 100%. Nobody else in North America does that. 4 years? Are you kidding? WB FO under $100k? Go to US pay model - first year salary then type specific hourly (sorry day/night/nav/overseas fans).

Vaccine? I think your beef is with the libs.

15 GDO’s per month? That means 15 days worked per month for everybody - senior and junior. This experiment has already happened on the NB fleet.

The AC application drawer is full. However, a path to a decent T4 by year 2 (non-upgrade) would go a long way towards stimulating higher experience applicants.

The AC CBA is long overdue for an overhaul into the 21st century. Might take new players to make that happen.

1) There's no more federal vax mandates and AC hasn't recalled their non-vaxxed pilots with a LOU, so why make it a condition of hiring?
2) GDO - Yeah I meant for WB. It's disgusting the schedule of a junior A330 RP or WB FO on top of the McDonald's level flat pay. There should be a a min GDO for WB similar to NB
3) Agreed that it might take new players in the game to move things forward. Canadian pilots somehow have never really realized their true leverage compared to their Southern brothers and sisters.

[rudder]

Malfunction….No.
In the short to medium term things are actually headed in the other direction. And until Jazz can crew itself to the point where it isn’t cancelling 30-50 flights a day, I don’t see it changing….but I am not making those calls.

FYI - not all of the Jazz flight cancellations are pilot related. Some are pre-programmed from AC Commercial. And some are lack of FA’s. Some are MTC. Some are ATC. Some are WXX. But likely some are Pilot related as well.

When things are running 1-4 hours behind each day, it inevitably creates massive issues for crewing. No different at mainline. It is AC that is responsible for ground support and sales staff for both mainline and Express. However, AC ultimately decides where to allocate finite resources.

[Arnie Pye]

Get rid of the flat pay, the vaccine requirement and give 15 GDOs per month and you might be amazed at the pile of resume of 6000+ hours 705 capt, jet experience, etc.

Eliminate Flat pay? 100%. Nobody else in North America does that. 4 years? Are you kidding? WB FO under $100k? Go to US pay model - first year salary then type specific hourly (sorry day/night/nav/overseas fans).

Vaccine? I think your beef is with the libs.

15 GDO’s per month? That means 15 days worked per month for everybody - senior and junior. This experiment has already happened on the NB fleet.

The AC application drawer is full. However, a path to a decent T4 by year 2 (non-upgrade) would go a long way towards stimulating higher experience applicants.

The AC CBA is long overdue for an overhaul into the 21st century. Might take new players to make that happen.

Even getting rid of the flat aspect of Air Canada's pay won't help as much as you think.

I work with around 200 people with over 10,000 hours total time and tons of good jet PIC time. Not a single one of us would go to AC as long as the starting pay is in the 50's. Even if it was $50k, $60k, $70k and $80k for the first four years, that isn't an incentive for anyone I know. I have no problem going back to being an FO for a couple of years, but I won't do it for less than my plumber makes.

[rudder]

Even getting rid of the flat aspect of Air Canada's pay won't help as much as you think.

I work with around 200 people with over 10,000 hours total time and tons of good jet PIC time. Not a single one of us would go to AC as long as the starting pay is in the 50's. Even if it was $50k, $60k, $70k and $80k for the first four years, that isn't an incentive for anyone I know. I have no problem going back to being an FO for a couple of years, but I won't do it for less than my plumber makes.

US top 6 carriers year 1 = approx US$90k. 2nd year NB FO = US140-150k.

Will AC reach these numbers? Probably not. But C80k+ then formula pay would get year 2/3/4 FO comfortably in to 6 figures, particularly if you hold WB FO.

In any case, ACPA has never typically focused on the ‘newbie’ side of the ledger. Will have to see if it appears on the radar screen for Contract 2024.

[fixnfly]

Malfunction….No.
In the short to medium term things are actually headed in the other direction. And until Jazz can crew itself to the point where it isn’t cancelling 30-50 flights a day, I don’t see it changing….but I am not making those calls.

Yea AC and Jazz have been pretty quiet about the crewing issues. From my understanding Jazz is having issues filling up the most recent groundschools as well. I would not be surprised if AC and Jazz decide to freeze the flow in the coming months until Jazz can hire enough captain eligible pilots to maintain adequate staffing levels to avoid the numerous cancellations. Jazz simply can’t afford to let go of the huge number of captains that are promised a spot at AC right now. In the meantime AC could continue to hire ots and promise to resume the 60% flow next year. Implementing something like the pilot mobility list would likely prevent a mass exodus from Jazz if they decided to go that route

[ted_stryker]

Malfunction….No.
In the short to medium term things are actually headed in the other direction. And until Jazz can crew itself to the point where it isn’t cancelling 30-50 flights a day, I don’t see it changing….but I am not making those calls.

Yea AC and Jazz have been pretty quiet about the crewing issues. From my understanding Jazz is having issues filling up the most recent groundschools as well. I would not be surprised if AC and Jazz decide to freeze the flow in the coming months until Jazz can hire enough captain eligible pilots to maintain adequate staffing levels to avoid the numerous cancellations. Jazz simply can’t afford to let go of the huge number of captains that are promised a spot at AC right now. In the meantime AC could continue to hire ots and promise to resume the 60% flow next year. Implementing something like the pilot mobility list would likely prevent a mass exodus from Jazz if they decided to go that route

If AC stops the flow without some reserved seniority like PML 1, im sure there will be a mass exodus from Jazz. I know I'll be gone.

[alkaseltzer]

Any truth to a alpa and acpa in partnership to help with lack of crews? Maybe a flow program no more interviews?

Vomit in my mouth before that happens.

Jazz is so desperate, they are hiring anyone with a pulse. Rampant fraud in their recent hires and a few in the flow through from what I hear.

TC should really get on the horn and investigate. For the unsuspecting travelling public.

[TheAlcalde]

As1) There's no more federal vax mandates and AC hasn't recalled their non-vaxxed pilots with a LOU, so why make it a condition of hiring?

It’s a big world. AC flies to other countries. Some of these countries require vaccination to enter.

[kiaszceski]

Malfunction….No.
In the short to medium term things are actually headed in the other direction. And until Jazz can crew itself to the point where it isn’t cancelling 30-50 flights a day, I don’t see it changing….but I am not making those calls.

Yea AC and Jazz have been pretty quiet about the crewing issues. From my understanding Jazz is having issues filling up the most recent groundschools as well. I would not be surprised if AC and Jazz decide to freeze the flow in the coming months until Jazz can hire enough captain eligible pilots to maintain adequate staffing levels to avoid the numerous cancellations. Jazz simply can’t afford to let go of the huge number of captains that are promised a spot at AC right now. In the meantime AC could continue to hire ots and promise to resume the 60% flow next year. Implementing something like the pilot mobility list would likely prevent a mass exodus from Jazz if they decided to go that route

Maybe there’s also a problem on the hiring process… questions to answer then interview, then Thomas assessment or equivalent, then simeval, then MMPI, then reference checks and drug test… things could be a bit lighter or even processed in a different order. That’s crazy to have people starting a process in Feb then being awarded a GS in June, even though those people have a pan ATPL and 705 time.
WestJet is doing the whole process in less than a month, same for Flair.

[rudder]

Maybe there’s also a problem on the hiring process… questions to answer then interview, then Thomas assessment or equivalent, then simeval, then MMPI, then reference checks and drug test… things could be a bit lighter or even processed in a different order. That’s crazy to have people starting a process in Feb then being awarded a GS in June, even though those people have a pan ATPL and 705 time.
WestJet is doing the whole process in less than a month, same for Flair.

90% of the Jazz hires are de facto AC hires (yes I know - more complicated than that). Also flying AC customers. So these steps are necessary.

But it could be streamlined.

[rudder]

Vomit in my mouth before that happens.

Jazz is so desperate, they are hiring anyone with a pulse. Rampant fraud in their recent hires and a few in the flow through from what I hear.

TC should really get on the horn and investigate. For the unsuspecting travelling public.

Do you have any facts that you would care to share? Or is this just rumour and innuendo?

[rudder]

Implementing something like the pilot mobility list would likely prevent a mass exodus from Jazz if they decided to go that route

Bingo.

[Freshredmeat]

Explaining to my girlfriend the pay cut I had to take to go to AC was an interesting conversation

What does United pay their new hires?

[Fanblade]

Stopping flow from Jazz to AC even for a bit, will likely start an exodus and make the crewing situation worse.

The root of the problem is AC can’t afford to have captains sitting in the right seat of a 737 or 220 anymore. There are simply not enough Captain ready individuals to go around.

A system where a Jazz Captain stays at Jazz while accruing seniority at mainline, including pay progress, is needed.

In the end it’s going to take some dollars.

[altiplano]

Best thing that could happen for all the pilots is to get rid of these flow schemes. Make airlines compete for staffing on with their own pay and terms, not some light at the end of the tunnel.

If Jazz, Encore, Porter all started competing for pilots by upping pay, improving schedules, suddenly the LCCs would be caught up in it to get guys to fuel their growth, then guys would be saying F- AC or WJ, I make $175K flying a Dash 8 or $250K flying an LCC 737 and have a great schedule... then mainlines have to start competing to draw those guys in. That could be the start of something good for everyone.

As is a bait with deferred seniority or a guaranteed shot at a mainline with marginal conditions is just a dry turd with sparkles.

[Canadaflyer46]

Best thing that could happen for all the pilots is to get rid of these flow schemes. Make airlines compete for staffing on with their own pay and terms, not some light at the end of the tunnel.

If Jazz, Encore, Porter all started competing for pilots by upping pay, improving schedules, suddenly the LCCs would be caught up in it to get guys to fuel their growth, then guys would be saying F- AC or WJ, I make $175K flying a Dash 8 or $250K flying an LCC 737 and have a great schedule... then mainlines have to start competing to draw those guys in. That could be the start of something good for everyone.

As is a bait with deferred seniority or a guaranteed shot at a mainline with marginal conditions is just a dry turd with sparkles.

Hit the nail on the head. Look at the current Encore model, (currently) 7 years at subpar regional conditions for a guaranteed spot at mainline WJ. Whereupon you start at the bottom of the payscale. The airlines are just lucky they can throw 500 hour pilots into the right seat here unlike down south. I don't think they'd have had the such vastly improved conditions in the US without the 1500 rule coming into play.

[sstaurus]

Mass exodus lol… to where? WJ? Encore? A ULCC? Swoop? (Gag) Not too many appealing options unless you decide to go back to the bush

[Fanblade]

We have been down this road before. The second you remove flow and start hiring elsewhere people leave. They won’t stay in a situation that looks like a glass ceiling.

Examples are plentiful. Jazz was a training turnstile for Encore before the Jazz AC flow through. When WJ dropped the one list concept with Encore, Encore pilots went to AC.

AC and WJ have to hire from somewhere. If not from their own feeders then it will be the likes of Flair. If a young Jazz pilot thinks the route to AC is through Flair? He/she will leave to Flair.

The key to retention is flow through. The absence of a glass ceiling.