Training bond and fail PPC

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digits_
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Re: Training bond and fail PPC

Post by digits_ »

photofly wrote: Mon Jul 25, 2022 8:14 am
rudder wrote: Mon Jul 25, 2022 6:08 am We are taking about ‘contract law’. What you are referring to is a service provided. Just like getting an oil change.
All are contracts. You can have a refund on your PPL training if the contract says you can have a refund on your PPL training.

A training bond, PPL training, and getting an oil change - all are matters of contract and governed by contract law. So is it also every time you buy something in a store.

Most PPL training isn't conducted under a written contract. So the court will look to see what the agreement of the parties was when they entered into the contract. They'd have to decide if each lesson represented a separate contract, and whether assurances were given. In the absence of some confirmation to that extent (oral, if the court believes the testimony, but preferrably in writing) it's unlikely you could get a refund if you failed the ride.
Isn't the big difference here that an employer can only charge an employee for training if it benefits the employee to work outside of the current employer.

Employer specific training => employer can not ask employee to pay back the training, even if there is a written agreement
More general training which make it easier for the employee to find work elsewhere => employer may ask the employee to pay back the training, written agreement required (or recommended, dependong on the source)

Since a failed training does not benefit an employee, could we not conclude that an employer would not be able to get money back from the employee in this case?

Assuming there is no negligence or intent, then an employer could not get money back from an employee for breaking plates while doing dishes, for burning more fuel than necessary due to an aggressive driving style, for hitting a pothole with a company car etc.

If all those things happen frequently enough, they could rightfully fire the employee, but even then, they would likely not be succesful to get damages, or to ask for the salary back just because the employee is incompetent. As an employee if you're incompetent, you can lose your job, but you (generally) don't have to pay for it.

It doesn't sound too farfetched that being incompetent and failing a PPC ride would come with that same protection.

Thoughts?
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photofly
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Re: Training bond and fail PPC

Post by photofly »

The employer and employee can agree to whatever contract terms they like. If your contract says you
must pass a check ride or else pay for the training, I don’t see why that would be unenforceable.

I don’t see why an employer can’t force an employee to pay for broken plates, either. Either as a matter of contract, or in a claim for the tort of negligence.

But then I’m not an employment lawyer.
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digits_
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Re: Training bond and fail PPC

Post by digits_ »

photofly wrote: Mon Jul 25, 2022 9:18 am The employer and employee can agree to whatever contract terms they like.
Pretty sure that's not true. You yourself mentioned earlier that courts can modify agreements.

One example would be paying for a uniform in Manitoba.
No employer can ask an employee to pay for it, doesn't matter if it's part of the employment contract.

(Link: https://www.gov.mb.ca/labour/standards/ ... 0employers. )
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As an AvCanada discussion grows longer:
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-one will be accused of using bad airmanship
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Re: Training bond and fail PPC

Post by photofly »

The courts modify written agreements to match the actual intentions of the parties, where it is different to what is in writing. That’s not a good example of what you’re asking.

Sure, there are some statutory provisions about what can and can’t be in an employment contract, but they are jurisdiction dependent. Outside of those, the parties can agree whatever terms they want. I don’t think there’s a statutory exception for broken plates, and there definitely isn’t one for training costs.
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Re: Training bond and fail PPC

Post by rookiepilot »

twa22 wrote: Mon Jul 25, 2022 8:07 am
rookiepilot wrote: Mon Jul 25, 2022 6:30 am
rudder wrote: Mon Jul 25, 2022 6:08 am

That is a false equivocation.

We are taking about ‘contract law’. What you are referring to is a service provided. Just like getting an oil change.
Wrong. It's a contract, like any other, for any service provided. Not sure you understand what a contract is.
Rookie, you need to take a step back and chill out, from your posts over the years, you don't have much skin in the aviation game, while rudder has been around a long, long time and has provided some extremely useful information on this site, while you haven't. I would take rudder's word when it comes to bonds over yours any day, so stop acting like you know everything
I (think) I understand contract law.

As others have said, it's not a buffet. You don't get to pick and choose what aspects of an agreement you like.

I don't happen to think the implied advice given to young pilots on this topic is sound.
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twa22
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Re: Training bond and fail PPC

Post by twa22 »

rookiepilot wrote: Mon Jul 25, 2022 11:53 am
twa22 wrote: Mon Jul 25, 2022 8:07 am
rookiepilot wrote: Mon Jul 25, 2022 6:30 am

Wrong. It's a contract, like any other, for any service provided. Not sure you understand what a contract is.
Rookie, you need to take a step back and chill out, from your posts over the years, you don't have much skin in the aviation game, while rudder has been around a long, long time and has provided some extremely useful information on this site, while you haven't. I would take rudder's word when it comes to bonds over yours any day, so stop acting like you know everything
I (think) I understand contract law.

As others have said, it's not a buffet. You don't get to pick and choose what aspects of an agreement you like.

I don't happen to think the implied advice given to young pilots on this topic is sound.
Yes, you do get to chose which aspects of an agreement you like or don't. If you don't like them, you don't sign an agreement, and generally don't take a job with terms you don't like. When you're offered a salary and schedule, if you don't like the salary, or schedule, you either decline the job or, you negotiate better terms

The same is the case of the OP, the advice was either don't sign, or ask for a modification of terms.

Very simple stuff mate
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twa22
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Re: Training bond and fail PPC

Post by twa22 »

Aviatard wrote: Mon Jul 25, 2022 8:49 am
twa22 wrote: Mon Jul 25, 2022 8:07 am
rookiepilot wrote: Mon Jul 25, 2022 6:30 am

Wrong. It's a contract, like any other, for any service provided. Not sure you understand what a contract is.
Rookie, you need to take a step back and chill out, from your posts over the years, you don't have much skin in the aviation game, while rudder has been around a long, long time and has provided some extremely useful information on this site, while you haven't. I would take rudder's word when it comes to bonds over yours any day, so stop acting like you know everything
It’s not necessary to know anything as long as you do it loud enough and with sufficient outrage.

Yea, seems like that happens quite a lot these days...
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photofly
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Re: Training bond and fail PPC

Post by photofly »

photofly wrote: Mon Jul 25, 2022 9:18 am
I don’t see why an employer can’t force an employee to pay for broken plates, either. Either as a matter of contract, or in a claim for the tort of negligence.
Here's something about when an employer can pursue an employee for negligence. Apparently, generally not - except in exceptional circumstances:
https://kmlaw.ca/reminderyou-cant-sue-e ... egligence/
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Re: Training bond and fail PPC

Post by Bug_Stomper_01 »

schnitzel2k3 wrote: Sat Jul 23, 2022 3:48 pm Here's a thought, how about say you're not comfortable signing a "training agreement". Slide it back across and say, I'm happy to do the job for you and provide you with significant return on investment.
That is good advice, a bond will be leveraged on you for the term it’s signed for regardless of the employer. In my experience most jobs requiring a bond are crappy enough that it’s needed to retain personnel.
I flat out refused a job once because of a training bond. They got pissy about it and said fine, I walked. They called the next week, same offer, no bond. It was a craptacular job and I’m thankful I didn’t sign it, I lasted less than half of the term the bond was slated for.
Never sign a bond unless you’re absolutely clear on what it means for you (have an employment lawyer review it with you and all the inherent risk). Shiny new endorsements aren’t so shiny when you see what you have to deal with to earn it.
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Re: Training bond and fail PPC

Post by Bug_Stomper_01 »

rookiepilot wrote: Sun Jul 24, 2022 8:27 am
digits_ wrote: Sat Jul 23, 2022 7:00 pm A company I worked for had a bond.

They forgot to ask one of the employees to sign it before training. They got the training, left within the timeframe of the bond and never had to pay.
Thats just stealing in my eyes.

And before the argument happens, as the “business owner”, commenting here…..its only “my” opinion that matters.

If one can’t be trusted to honour a simple contract, sure as heck can’t be trusted with million dollar equipment or peoples lives.

If I ran that company, I’d make sure to send that person's name to all my friends….running other aviation companies. I guarantee they probably all know each other.

How’s that?

It’s called blacklisting. And it happens.

What goes around, comes around. Its a small industry.
No that’s not correct. If the company is careless enough to put the candidate through training without having a signed contract that’s on them. Realistically it can’t be signed after the fact the way these are usually worded anyways due to common law and changes everything for the arrangement. I’d revisit the contract with an employment lawyer at the very least in this instance but, would probably be advised not to sign it.
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Re: Training bond and fail PPC

Post by rookiepilot »

Bug_Stomper_01 wrote: Tue Aug 02, 2022 10:01 am
rookiepilot wrote: Sun Jul 24, 2022 8:27 am
digits_ wrote: Sat Jul 23, 2022 7:00 pm A company I worked for had a bond.

They forgot to ask one of the employees to sign it before training. They got the training, left within the timeframe of the bond and never had to pay.
Thats just stealing in my eyes.

And before the argument happens, as the “business owner”, commenting here…..its only “my” opinion that matters.

If one can’t be trusted to honour a simple contract, sure as heck can’t be trusted with million dollar equipment or peoples lives.

If I ran that company, I’d make sure to send that person's name to all my friends….running other aviation companies. I guarantee they probably all know each other.

How’s that?

It’s called blacklisting. And it happens.

What goes around, comes around. Its a small industry.
No that’s not correct. If the company is careless enough to put the candidate through training without having a signed contract that’s on them. Realistically it can’t be signed after the fact the way these are usually worded anyways due to common law and changes everything for the arrangement. I’d revisit the contract with an employment lawyer at the very least in this instance but, would probably be advised not to sign it.
My words were a bit too harsh. I'm highly sympathetic to working conditions and pay for entry level folks. I just think it's important to honor one's word. Balanced with that, is assertively negotiating conditions, and checking out a prospective employer carefully however one can.

It's really tough for young people now and I have considerable compassion for them. Not easy at all.
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Re: Training bond and fail PPC

Post by photofly »

rookiepilot wrote: Tue Aug 02, 2022 11:41 am It's really tough for young people now and I have considerable compassion for them. Not easy at all.
Who are you, and what did you do with rookiepilot?
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Re: Training bond and fail PPC

Post by rookiepilot »

photofly wrote: Tue Aug 02, 2022 11:46 am
rookiepilot wrote: Tue Aug 02, 2022 11:41 am It's really tough for young people now and I have considerable compassion for them. Not easy at all.
Who are you, and what did you do with rookiepilot?
I’ve been too harsh.

I apologize.
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Re: Training bond and fail PPC

Post by digits_ »

rookiepilot wrote: Tue Aug 02, 2022 1:33 pm
photofly wrote: Tue Aug 02, 2022 11:46 am
rookiepilot wrote: Tue Aug 02, 2022 11:41 am It's really tough for young people now and I have considerable compassion for them. Not easy at all.
Who are you, and what did you do with rookiepilot?
I’ve been too harsh.

I apologize.
:smt056 :smt058 :smt057
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Re: Training bond and fail PPC

Post by Duukar »

There is no other option than to run. It’s predatory.
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Re: Training bond and fail PPC

Post by Bug_Stomper_01 »

Duukar wrote: Fri Aug 05, 2022 11:09 pm There is no other option than to run. It’s predatory.
Depending on the company one of two things can happen. A) they have some humanity forgive the bond and let you carry on, or more likely 2) He gets sued and dragged into interlocutory proceeding costing thousands in protracted litigation. His best course of action is to seek legal advice before proceeding. What kind of company is this, what kind of machinery we talking?
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Last edited by Bug_Stomper_01 on Sat Aug 06, 2022 12:01 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Training bond and fail PPC

Post by Bug_Stomper_01 »

nappo787 wrote: Fri Jul 22, 2022 2:23 pm Hey guys

I’m wondering if this is normal on most 703s, they require you to pay the bond even if you fail the ride? Is this an industry normal thing on most operators? Or is it a red flag on a small % of operators?

Any info would be very much appreciated since I’ve got to offers and both state pilot must pay the bond if fails the ride.
What kind of documents are we talking about signing here? A bond and promissory note? If you don’t know ask to see the boilerplate (if it exists) to review with an employment lawyer before proceeding, I can help in that area if you’re interested (dm me).

As Dukkar stated a few posts up this is definitely a predatory tactic, regardless of check ride caveat or not. The bond will absolutely be leveraged for what I’m guessing will be a minimum of 24 months prorated. I’ve said it and so have what I consider reputable posters on this forum, that bonds equal bad employment arrangements. That said they also know you need those accolades to advance your career. I like schnitzels idea (after you review the bond with a lawyer) offer what you can do for them without the bond, which, I think will be fruitless. Hope this helps, don’t be too eager to sign anything before consulting with a lawyer!
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Re: Training bond and fail PPC

Post by Duukar »

Bug_Stomper_01 wrote: Fri Aug 05, 2022 11:39 pm
Duukar wrote: Fri Aug 05, 2022 11:09 pm There is no other option than to run. It’s predatory.
Depending on the company one of two things can happen. A) they have some humanity forgive the bond and let you carry on, or more likely 2) He gets sued and dragged into interlocutory proceeding costing thousands in protracted litigation. His best course of action is to seek legal advice before proceeding. What kind of company is this, what kind of machinery we talking?
What I'm saying is that one should never consider paying out a training bond if you haven't obtained gainful employment from the bond, and not even a PPC in the event of a failed ride.

Good luck to the employer who takes this to court. You received zero value for your money in this case so what exactly are they asking you to pay for? For the honor of being considered and passed over for employment? They essentially turned sim into a protracted interview where you are paying all the expenses one way or the other.

So if you fail a ride and then have to turn around and pay $40,000 or whatever trumped up costs they hand over(I'm assuming this is some turbo prop operator) I wouldn't even consider signing. Just find somewhere else to work.

However, if you feel like you don't have options I really wouldn't worry about failing a ride. Instead, I would consider very carefully if this is the kind of place you want to spend the next two years working. If this is how they treat you on the front end I'm sure there are other more concerning issues hiding in the background.
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Re: Training bond and fail PPC

Post by Bug_Stomper_01 »

Duukar wrote: Fri Aug 12, 2022 5:18 pm
Bug_Stomper_01 wrote: Fri Aug 05, 2022 11:39 pm
Duukar wrote: Fri Aug 05, 2022 11:09 pm There is no other option than to run. It’s predatory.
Depending on the company one of two things can happen. A) they have some humanity forgive the bond and let you carry on, or more likely 2) He gets sued and dragged into interlocutory proceeding costing thousands in protracted litigation. His best course of action is to seek legal advice before proceeding. What kind of company is this, what kind of machinery we talking?
What I'm saying is that one should never consider paying out a training bond if you haven't obtained gainful employment from the bond, and not even a PPC in the event of a failed ride.

Good luck to the employer who takes this to court. You received zero value for your money in this case so what exactly are they asking you to pay for? For the honor of being considered and passed over for employment? They essentially turned sim into a protracted interview where you are paying all the expenses one way or the other.

So if you fail a ride and then have to turn around and pay $40,000 or whatever trumped up costs they hand over(I'm assuming this is some turbo prop operator) I wouldn't even consider signing. Just find somewhere else to work.

However, if you feel like you don't have options I really wouldn't worry about failing a ride. Instead, I would consider very carefully if this is the kind of place you want to spend the next two years working. If this is how they treat you on the front end I'm sure there are other more concerning issues hiding in the background.
I agree about not signing, not what some of these companies will do legally if your end of the bargain isn’t fulfilled. I’ve seen employees sued and employers sued over these deals, and with the state Canadas loose jurisprudence it’s sometimes very surprising what happens when it lands in front of a judge.
A training bond is 150% nothing more than leverage used to manipulate the candidate, it’s never just to protect both parties on its face. It is a predatory tactic used by bad employers in Canadian aviation PERIOD.
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