You think they'd be able to get away with that? Anyone who isn't bound by a NDA would absolutely speak out.strengthinumbers wrote: ↑Mon Aug 15, 2022 11:35 am You think ACPA is going to allow anymore P4C members to run? You watch, a carefully crafted list of names will appear come election time!!
These snakes are playing a dirty game.
P4C members terminated
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Re: P4C members terminated
Re: P4C members terminated
You guys and gals seriously need some new representation…. send RG off to retirement.
Calling ACPA a failed experiment is being overly kind.
Calling ACPA a failed experiment is being overly kind.
Re: P4C members terminated
Calling ACPA representation is overly kind.
Yeah this is brutal. First the old guard within ACPA tries, but fails, to take out the P4C crowd in the spring. The membership responds with a recall. ACPA leadership ignores the results. Then the company fires the same group ACPA tried to take out in the spring.
Two of the people fired are probably the most vocal about ACPA changing.
But get this. According to ACPA these firings were not targeted if you can believe it. Of course they say that because, well, they want P4C gone too. Saying they were targeted would require a strong response which of course our little extension of management is not willing to do. So they are relegated as “ private personal issues”. Nothing gets said to the membership. The membership hasn’t even been told some of these guys were terminated. The only information given was they resigned from their union positions.
I sure hope these guys don’t use ACPA legal. I doubt in-house legal would be permitted to defend them on union busting grounds.
The best way to deal with this is to send in reinforcements.
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Re: P4C members terminated
Fanblade….
I have no inside information as to what this individual did to get fired. But we both know it is pretty hard to get fired at AC - other than the 3 known guaranteed ways. In fact in my personal opinion, lately we have been hanging on to a number of people who we should have fired and who in years past, we would have fired. A union exec would have to do something pretty spectacular to get terminated, far and beyond being an overly aggressive union representative. Hell, it seems that being a skilled and aggressive union representative is a common way into management.
Unfortunately, as our newly elected “orange team” is starting to implode, I fear the company labor relations consultants are probably scheming to take an even bigger run at us than they otherwise might have. Time will tell. But I would be slow to link a termination to a labor relations related assassination.
I have no inside information as to what this individual did to get fired. But we both know it is pretty hard to get fired at AC - other than the 3 known guaranteed ways. In fact in my personal opinion, lately we have been hanging on to a number of people who we should have fired and who in years past, we would have fired. A union exec would have to do something pretty spectacular to get terminated, far and beyond being an overly aggressive union representative. Hell, it seems that being a skilled and aggressive union representative is a common way into management.
Unfortunately, as our newly elected “orange team” is starting to implode, I fear the company labor relations consultants are probably scheming to take an even bigger run at us than they otherwise might have. Time will tell. But I would be slow to link a termination to a labor relations related assassination.
Re: P4C members terminated
Terminated for not being loyal to Air Canada is my understanding.
Pretty fucking thin.
Pretty fucking thin.
- Lt. Daniel Kaffee
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Re: P4C members terminated
Yeah right..."not being loyal"
How long do you think that line would last in front of an arbitrator?
This reminds me of an ACPA rep who resigned several years ago...there was a great cry from the "membership"...
"he was looking out for members" sort of like the cries about others who have left ACPA.... yada yada yada
Truth be told, he was "shtuping" someone inappropriately ....
How long do you think that line would last in front of an arbitrator?
This reminds me of an ACPA rep who resigned several years ago...there was a great cry from the "membership"...
"he was looking out for members" sort of like the cries about others who have left ACPA.... yada yada yada
Truth be told, he was "shtuping" someone inappropriately ....
Re: P4C members terminated
Sportingrifle,sportingrifle wrote: ↑Mon Aug 15, 2022 10:53 pm Fanblade….
I have no inside information as to what this individual did to get fired. But we both know it is pretty hard to get fired at AC - other than the 3 known guaranteed ways. In fact in my personal opinion, lately we have been hanging on to a number of people who we should have fired and who in years past, we would have fired. A union exec would have to do something pretty spectacular to get terminated, far and beyond being an overly aggressive union representative. Hell, it seems that being a skilled and aggressive union representative is a common way into management.
Unfortunately, as our newly elected “orange team” is starting to implode, I fear the company labor relations consultants are probably scheming to take an even bigger run at us than they otherwise might have. Time will tell. But I would be slow to link a termination to a labor relations related assassination.
Apparently it is very easy to get fired. One negative comment on social media is enough if they so desire. In this case there was a desire to get rid of someone on the MEC. The most vocal for change. It looks opportunistic. We didn’t even whimper. It’s union busting. It’s management trying to cull parts of the MEC they don’t want. The same people parts of ACPA don’t want. ACPA’s impotence is currently on full display.
The company just showed us how powerless ACPA is. Leave partisan politics out of this for a moment. They fired a vocal union leader. Anywhere else that would be war. What did we do? We ran and left them twisting in the wind. Same as 10 years ago with PS and JMB.
You’re on here trying to play down what just happened. You have pre judged guilt on the pilots and innocence on management. So just let them twist in the wind? Pretty cold dude.
We are so impotent that we don’t even have the courage to call this what it is. The reason is because ACPA would have to respond aggressively toward the company if they admitted what happened. That will never happen in this management aligned union.
We are weak. Very very weak. Yes the company will absolutely crush us if we don’t change.
“Hell, it seems that being a skilled and aggressive union representative is a common way into management. “
Are you joking? Our CBA is the litmus test for the quality of our representation. Think about it. ACPA is a known pathway into management. How aggressive do you think a management wannabe is going to act? In fact the management position reward is for giving things away. For acting as if you were already management while sitting on the union side.
Last edited by Fanblade on Tue Aug 16, 2022 11:24 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: P4C members terminated
Fan blade…as I said I have no idea what actually led to his termination. And I have seen quite a lot of behaviours that would have got people fired in most jobs and didn’t at AC. If the guy really was targeted unjustly, it won’t take long for an arbitrator to see thru it.
I have also noticed that the company tends to pick the brighter union bulbs for management while sometimes leaving ACPA with the “energy saving” ones.
In general I am sick and tired of training entitled children with no appreciation of the job or profession. If a few who have expressed unhappiness with their job are given some expedited assistance in finding something more to their liking, I am not loosing any sleep over it. Let somebody who really wants the job have it. My bigger worry is how tribal and disorganized our union is just as we are going into contract negotiations.
I have also noticed that the company tends to pick the brighter union bulbs for management while sometimes leaving ACPA with the “energy saving” ones.
In general I am sick and tired of training entitled children with no appreciation of the job or profession. If a few who have expressed unhappiness with their job are given some expedited assistance in finding something more to their liking, I am not loosing any sleep over it. Let somebody who really wants the job have it. My bigger worry is how tribal and disorganized our union is just as we are going into contract negotiations.
Re: P4C members terminated
OMG dude. That post was cringe worthy. You just made our generation look like a bunch of Aholes. You just put on full display why the bottom half of the seniority list is responding the way they are to ACPA, it’s leadership and our generation.sportingrifle wrote: ↑Tue Aug 16, 2022 11:20 am
In general I am sick and tired of training entitled children with no appreciation of the job or profession. If a few who have expressed unhappiness with their job are given some expedited assistance in finding something more to their liking, I am not loosing any sleep over it. Let somebody who really wants the job have it.
I work on the line with these fellow aviators you so easily denigrate. They are as professional and talented as any generation before them.
There is nothing wrong with wanting things to be better, rather than constantly getting worse. It’s actually quite normal.
I’m embarrassed by your post.
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Re: P4C members terminated
Fan blade..ok , we will just agree to disagree on this point.
And fwiw, the pilots at the teal coloured ALPA airline that beaked off on social media also found themselves unemployed.
I am proud of the job we do and of the profession. Those who feel likewise are a pleasure to work with and will have amazing careers. Those that thumb their nose at the job or the profession by either besmirching it or not willing to make the effort that it requires, I am happy to see pursue other opportunities. One observation that I would add, for better or worse, is that my opinion is shared by many of my colleagues.
And fwiw, the pilots at the teal coloured ALPA airline that beaked off on social media also found themselves unemployed.
I am proud of the job we do and of the profession. Those who feel likewise are a pleasure to work with and will have amazing careers. Those that thumb their nose at the job or the profession by either besmirching it or not willing to make the effort that it requires, I am happy to see pursue other opportunities. One observation that I would add, for better or worse, is that my opinion is shared by many of my colleagues.
Re: P4C members terminated
Lol,sportingrifle wrote: ↑Tue Aug 16, 2022 11:40 am Fan blade..ok , we will just agree to disagree on this point.
And fwiw, the pilots at the teal coloured ALPA airline that beaked off on social media also found themselves unemployed.
I am proud of the job we do and of the profession. Those who feel likewise are a pleasure to work with and will have amazing careers. Those that thumb their nose at the job or the profession by either besmirching it or not willing to make the effort that it requires, I am happy to see pursue other opportunities. One observation that I would add, for better or worse, is that my opinion is shared by many of my colleagues.
So you respond with doubling down on your attitude toward the next generation. This is the same mistake the YVR chair keeps making. And he can’t figure out why his popularity crashed.
Wanting things to improve after decades of losses is not a crime.
We, as in you and I, are the generation that failed to leave this profession better than we found it.
I think we are the actual problem. And the next generation knows it.
We are not liked because of what we left them.
Responses like suck it up punk. Or if you don’t like it, there’s the door. Let the vocal MEC guy from the next generation twist in the wind.
Can you not see how that attitude might be part of the problem?
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Re: P4C members terminated
"Everyone just shut up and be happy you work at AC"...
Sounds familiar.
And Sr pilots wonder why there's a whole separate forum just for CWIPP pilots.
Go look at 2003 wages, compared to 2022 wages. Factor some inflation, housing prices since then, overall cost of living... and maybe you (sportingrifle) will understand why so many Jr pilots feel like the Sr pilots didn't do much to protect this job. And don't say "well go somewhere else"... there isn't anywhere else. AC is still the top in Canada, but that doesn't mean those of us who went there have to be happy with the status quo.
disclaimer; I know it's not everyone, I know a ton of awesome Sr guys.
Sounds familiar.
And Sr pilots wonder why there's a whole separate forum just for CWIPP pilots.
Go look at 2003 wages, compared to 2022 wages. Factor some inflation, housing prices since then, overall cost of living... and maybe you (sportingrifle) will understand why so many Jr pilots feel like the Sr pilots didn't do much to protect this job. And don't say "well go somewhere else"... there isn't anywhere else. AC is still the top in Canada, but that doesn't mean those of us who went there have to be happy with the status quo.
disclaimer; I know it's not everyone, I know a ton of awesome Sr guys.
Re: P4C members terminated
Just a random question.negative_g wrote: ↑Tue Aug 16, 2022 12:15 pm "Everyone just shut up and be happy you work at AC"...
Sounds familiar.
And Sr pilots wonder why there's a whole separate forum just for CWIPP pilots.
Go look at 2003 wages, compared to 2022 wages. Factor some inflation, housing prices since then, overall cost of living... and maybe you (sportingrifle) will understand why so many Jr pilots feel like the Sr pilots didn't do much to protect this job. And don't say "well go somewhere else"... there isn't anywhere else. AC is still the top in Canada, but that doesn't mean those of us who went there have to be happy with the status quo.
disclaimer; I know it's not everyone, I know a ton of awesome Sr guys.
What’s the time to left seat in a 320 now vs. back in 2003?
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Re: P4C members terminated
Not everyone wants to go be a Jr captain just to get off flat pay.Ki-ll wrote: ↑Tue Aug 16, 2022 5:55 pmJust a random question.negative_g wrote: ↑Tue Aug 16, 2022 12:15 pm "Everyone just shut up and be happy you work at AC"...
Sounds familiar.
And Sr pilots wonder why there's a whole separate forum just for CWIPP pilots.
Go look at 2003 wages, compared to 2022 wages. Factor some inflation, housing prices since then, overall cost of living... and maybe you (sportingrifle) will understand why so many Jr pilots feel like the Sr pilots didn't do much to protect this job. And don't say "well go somewhere else"... there isn't anywhere else. AC is still the top in Canada, but that doesn't mean those of us who went there have to be happy with the status quo.
disclaimer; I know it's not everyone, I know a ton of awesome Sr guys.
What’s the time to left seat in a 320 now vs. back in 2003?
Year 3 320FOs made 120-130k in 2002-2003 money. Go find an inflation calculator and compare that to the 75k they make now.
Have a look at what houses cost in Richmond, Surrey, Burlington, Oakville etc in 2003 as well.
Maybe then some Sr fellas will understand why so many Jr pilots are angry.
- Lt. Daniel Kaffee
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Re: P4C members terminated
You wonder why senior pilots don't think much of junior pilots....statements like that show so much ignorance and naiveté.understand why so many Jr pilots feel like the Sr pilots didn't do much to protect this job.
1995-1998 huge hiring boom...ends with strike of 1998.
199?-1998 Air Canada regional airline pilots take ACPA pilots to CLRB/CIRB to try and force a seniority merger
1999 Federal govt conspires with AA and Gerry Schwartz to takeover Air Canada
1999 Air Canada forced to buy CAI
2000 tech sector meltdown - huge downturn of business traffic
2000 merger of AC and CAI...CRA pilots merged with fake dates of hire, CAI pilots get free upgrade (non-negotiated) to ACPA wage and working conditions
2001 - 9-11 almost zero support from Canadian federal government
2001 Mitchnick award in merger of ACPA and ALPA-C
2003 - Air Canada CCAA pilots chose to take pay cuts to protect junior pilot jobs...other AC unions sell out their junior members
Keller award award in merger of ACPA and ALPA-C
2004 Air Canada emerges from CCAA
2006 arbitrator removes pension indexing from ACPA
2008/09 Financial meltdown...Air Canada barely avoids CCAA a second time that decade - CA frozen
2012 Federal gov't under Harper takes a tough stance against Labour....screws Canada Post...prevents pilots from striking under the Protection of Air Services Act
FOS is forced on ACPA by Harper govt.
But you're right...senior pilots no nothing about tough times and protecting junior pilots
Re: P4C members terminated
And the last 15 years?Lt. Daniel Kaffee wrote: ↑Tue Aug 16, 2022 6:58 pmYou wonder why senior pilots don't think much of junior pilots....statements like that show so much ignorance and naiveté.understand why so many Jr pilots feel like the Sr pilots didn't do much to protect this job.
1995-1998 huge hiring boom...ends with strike of 1998.
199?-1998 Air Canada regional airline pilots take ACPA pilots to CLRB/CIRB to try and force a seniority merger
1999 Federal govt conspires with AA and Gerry Schwartz to takeover Air Canada
1999 Air Canada forced to buy CAI
2000 tech sector meltdown - huge downturn of business traffic
2000 merger of AC and CAI...CRA pilots merged with fake dates of hire, CAI pilots get free upgrade (non-negotiated) to ACPA wage and working conditions
2001 - 9-11 almost zero support from Canadian federal government
2001 Mitchnick award in merger of ACPA and ALPA-C
2003 - Air Canada CCAA pilots chose to take pay cuts to protect junior pilot jobs...other AC unions sell out their junior members
Keller award award in merger of ACPA and ALPA-C
2004 Air Canada emerges from CCAA
2006 arbitrator removes pension indexing from ACPA
2008/09 Financial meltdown...Air Canada barely avoids CCAA a second time that decade - CA frozen
2012 Federal gov't under Harper takes a tough stance against Labour....screws Canada Post...prevents pilots from striking under the Protection of Air Services Act
FOS is forced on ACPA by Harper govt.
But you're right...senior pilots no nothing about tough times and protecting junior pilots
I get we, the average Joe pilot voted against TA1. That still doesn’t excuse what happened. ACPA negotiated it. It never would have been rammed down our throat had ACPA not negotiated it.
ACPA owns.
The loss of DB Pension. Doubling flat pay to four years. FO and RP pay cuts. Rouge.
All of this was freely negotiated by ACPA. Give a thought to how these changes alone are currently impacting the next generation.
Re: P4C members terminated
The question is a red herring. In 2003 we were dealing with over staffing due to a merger. In the late 90’s people were upgrading to the 320 in about 3-5 years. Not that different than today. The quality of life issues on the narrow body fleet weren’t as sever then either. Today some people avoid narrow body upgrading because of the poor pairing credit alone. Top of the list is working 16 days often. It’s going more junior partly because the quality of the job has dropped.Ki-ll wrote: ↑Tue Aug 16, 2022 5:55 pmJust a random question.negative_g wrote: ↑Tue Aug 16, 2022 12:15 pm "Everyone just shut up and be happy you work at AC"...
Sounds familiar.
And Sr pilots wonder why there's a whole separate forum just for CWIPP pilots.
Go look at 2003 wages, compared to 2022 wages. Factor some inflation, housing prices since then, overall cost of living... and maybe you (sportingrifle) will understand why so many Jr pilots feel like the Sr pilots didn't do much to protect this job. And don't say "well go somewhere else"... there isn't anywhere else. AC is still the top in Canada, but that doesn't mean those of us who went there have to be happy with the status quo.
disclaimer; I know it's not everyone, I know a ton of awesome Sr guys.
What’s the time to left seat in a 320 now vs. back in 2003?
We certainly helped AC to expand by creating cheap new hire pay. Yes some got quick upgrades out of the expansion. Between the expansion, and doubling flat pay, our pilot population on flat pay more than tripled.
Think about it.
Re: P4C members terminated
I love how the company and union establishment shills all come out and argue against the idea that improvements are needed for Air Canada plots.
Meanwhile -
We make 30% less than we did 20 years ago.
Our annual wage gains are 1/4 current inflation levels.
FOs and RPs make less.
We work more.
Our pension is shittier wether you are DB or CWIPP.
We pay more for that pension.
We have less vacation.
We have B scale and C scale.
We have 4 years of low pay to start off.
We have lost scope, EMJs, 80 seat aircraft, ASM percentage.
We haven't made a gain in our contract for 20 years.
Keep on cheering though boys. You are king of the shit pile.
Meanwhile -
We make 30% less than we did 20 years ago.
Our annual wage gains are 1/4 current inflation levels.
FOs and RPs make less.
We work more.
Our pension is shittier wether you are DB or CWIPP.
We pay more for that pension.
We have less vacation.
We have B scale and C scale.
We have 4 years of low pay to start off.
We have lost scope, EMJs, 80 seat aircraft, ASM percentage.
We haven't made a gain in our contract for 20 years.
Keep on cheering though boys. You are king of the shit pile.
Re: P4C members terminated
Fair points, some people would rather have seniority than pay.negative_g wrote: ↑Tue Aug 16, 2022 6:32 pmNot everyone wants to go be a Jr captain just to get off flat pay.Ki-ll wrote: ↑Tue Aug 16, 2022 5:55 pmJust a random question.negative_g wrote: ↑Tue Aug 16, 2022 12:15 pm "Everyone just shut up and be happy you work at AC"...
Sounds familiar.
And Sr pilots wonder why there's a whole separate forum just for CWIPP pilots.
Go look at 2003 wages, compared to 2022 wages. Factor some inflation, housing prices since then, overall cost of living... and maybe you (sportingrifle) will understand why so many Jr pilots feel like the Sr pilots didn't do much to protect this job. And don't say "well go somewhere else"... there isn't anywhere else. AC is still the top in Canada, but that doesn't mean those of us who went there have to be happy with the status quo.
disclaimer; I know it's not everyone, I know a ton of awesome Sr guys.
What’s the time to left seat in a 320 now vs. back in 2003?
Year 3 320FOs made 120-130k in 2002-2003 money. Go find an inflation calculator and compare that to the 75k they make now.
Have a look at what houses cost in Richmond, Surrey, Burlington, Oakville etc in 2003 as well.
Maybe then some Sr fellas will understand why so many Jr pilots are angry.
Where on a list of 320 FOs would this hypothetical 3rd year 320 pilot sit in 2003 vs. now?
Just curious, how did you get 120-130k number? Using the collective agreement from 2000-2004, blended rates and 78 hour guarantee I get $96,822 in 2003 dollars.
Re: P4C members terminated
What were pilot's options in 2003 in terms of whether upgrade or not upgrade to left seat of a NB? Could the have good seniority on the FO list? WB FO? Were they off reserve?Fanblade wrote: ↑Tue Aug 16, 2022 9:59 pmThe question is a red herring. In 2003 we were dealing with over staffing due to a merger. In the late 90’s people were upgrading to the 320 in about 3-5 years. Not that different than today. The quality of life issues on the narrow body fleet weren’t as sever then either. Today some people avoid narrow body upgrading because of the poor pairing credit alone. Top of the list is working 16 days often. It’s going more junior partly because the quality of the job has dropped.Ki-ll wrote: ↑Tue Aug 16, 2022 5:55 pmJust a random question.negative_g wrote: ↑Tue Aug 16, 2022 12:15 pm "Everyone just shut up and be happy you work at AC"...
Sounds familiar.
And Sr pilots wonder why there's a whole separate forum just for CWIPP pilots.
Go look at 2003 wages, compared to 2022 wages. Factor some inflation, housing prices since then, overall cost of living... and maybe you (sportingrifle) will understand why so many Jr pilots feel like the Sr pilots didn't do much to protect this job. And don't say "well go somewhere else"... there isn't anywhere else. AC is still the top in Canada, but that doesn't mean those of us who went there have to be happy with the status quo.
disclaimer; I know it's not everyone, I know a ton of awesome Sr guys.
What’s the time to left seat in a 320 now vs. back in 2003?
We certainly helped AC to expand by creating cheap new hire pay. Yes some got quick upgrades out of the expansion. Between the expansion, and doubling flat pay, our pilot population on flat pay more than tripled.
Think about it.
Re: P4C members terminated
2003 319/320 3rd year FO rates were $97.49/109.41.Ki-ll wrote: ↑Wed Aug 17, 2022 6:31 am Fair points, some people would rather have seniority than pay.
Where on a list of 320 FOs would this hypothetical 3rd year 320 pilot sit in 2003 vs. now?
Just curious, how did you get 120-130k number? Using the collective agreement from 2000-2004, blended rates and 78 hour guarantee I get $96,822 in 2003 dollars.
The rate would be a little higher if you accounted for 321 weight pay which we fly today.
More vacation, 25% lower employee pension contribution, pension indexing, fewer days worked all would bring a significantly better package.
What does a 3rd year FO (777 even) make today? $79/hr.- 20 years later.
That's irrelevant. Those are market/industry cycle, corporate choices, and growth based on broader things than pilot concessions. Our duty and our union's duty is not to justify deteriorating work conditions and pay because we are in a period of growth and retirement and a member can take an upgrade sooner than 10 years.
Re: P4C members terminated
I already answered you. See the bold above.Ki-ll wrote: ↑Wed Aug 17, 2022 6:35 amWhat were pilot's options in 2003 in terms of whether upgrade or not upgrade to left seat of a NB? Could the have good seniority on the FO list? WB FO? Were they off reserve?Fanblade wrote: ↑Tue Aug 16, 2022 9:59 pmThe question is a red herring. In 2003 we were dealing with over staffing due to a merger. In the late 90’s people were upgrading to the 320 in about 3-5 years. Not that different than today. The quality of life issues on the narrow body fleet weren’t as sever then either. Today some people avoid narrow body upgrading because of the poor pairing credit alone. Top of the list is working 16 days often. It’s going more junior partly because the quality of the job has dropped.
We certainly helped AC to expand by creating cheap new hire pay. Yes some got quick upgrades out of the expansion. Between the expansion, and doubling flat pay, our pilot population on flat pay more than tripled.
Think about it.
To expand on it you have picked the worse time in AC history for upgrades and career progression. A merger in 2000 which left us overstaffed. Then 911. Then CCAA. There were about 1600 pilot positions west of YYZ. By 2005 there were less than 1000. Yes it was absolutely brutal. Many people were forced off the YVR base. Left seats lost. Furloughs.
But it wasn’t the norm. It was bankruptcy. Like I said in the late 1990’s upgrades were almost as quick. In 2007 just as quick as today. Much of how fast one can upgrade is timing in a hiring cycle. You and I know it can stop just as fast as it starts.
Today people are upgrading quickly again, just like in previous hiring cycles, but the compensation is about 30% less than it was 20 years ago and the pension greatly degraded. And like always it could stop tomorrow.
Question for you to consider. We took 15% pay cuts in CCAA.
Why are we 30% (some instances 40%) behind pre bankruptcy pay levels today? An in-depth look at this question reveals a lot of continued concessionary bargaining even post CCAA. The most recent Cargo.
The truth of the matter is that in 2003 our wages were relatively close to US carriers. Then while US carriers fought to regain their bankruptcy losses post Chapter 11. ACPA continued to give concessions. Today we are embarrassingly far behind.
What does all this say about our performance over the last 15 years?
Now place yourself in the shoes of Joe junior pilot. Would you want this to continue?
If you want it stopped. How would you go about it?
As you went about trying to stop the concessionary bargaining how would it come across to you if senior pilots started saying to you. Greedy. Lazy. Trouble makers. Quite if you don’t like it.
Then you get to watch the agents for change you have elected get fired. The union response. Zero. Some of the senior response. Good riddance.
Think about it.
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Re: P4C members terminated
Fan blade…I want to let you have the last word on this but I also want to clarify a point that you are confusing-in fact the whole thread has confused. There are two separate issues being discussed that in reality have nothing to do with each other but that have been joined together. A thread drift that would be better served by two separate threads.
The first issue is the termination of an employee who ( I believe) disregarded the companies policies on publicly commenting on company affairs. A policy that he signed and acknowledged upon being hired. A policy that is no different from what almost all companies have, and that most companies also terminate their employees for violating. Including airlines represented by ALPA. I commented that a significant number of newer employees also displayed a lack of appreciation for the job and the profession, and that I would be happy if they moved on elsewhere. At no time did I insinuate that it was an entire generation, or even the majority of new hires. You did. It is perhaps 10 or 20 percent, but still a great increase from the perhaps 2 percent of previous generations. Bad apples were culled pretty quickly 25 years ago. You broad brushed the idea that I was attacking an entire generation of pilots into my post when in fact I was not. I was complaining about the few that myself and my colleagues have had issues with that display strong indicators that they shouldn’t be here to begin with. And I stand by my position (“doubling down” in your words) that the airline and our cockpits are better off without these individuals.
But because the terminated individual was a union guy, his termination for (alleged) bad behaviour has been twisted into an attack on our union, and by extension, ourselves and our contract. No, he was simply one of significant number of hiring mistakes we have made that got corrected. And probably not the last. Your explanation of the tremendous erosion of our wages and working conditions is accurate and something that we need to begin to correct in the upcoming negotiations. But that is a completely separate issue from culling bad apples.
The first issue is the termination of an employee who ( I believe) disregarded the companies policies on publicly commenting on company affairs. A policy that he signed and acknowledged upon being hired. A policy that is no different from what almost all companies have, and that most companies also terminate their employees for violating. Including airlines represented by ALPA. I commented that a significant number of newer employees also displayed a lack of appreciation for the job and the profession, and that I would be happy if they moved on elsewhere. At no time did I insinuate that it was an entire generation, or even the majority of new hires. You did. It is perhaps 10 or 20 percent, but still a great increase from the perhaps 2 percent of previous generations. Bad apples were culled pretty quickly 25 years ago. You broad brushed the idea that I was attacking an entire generation of pilots into my post when in fact I was not. I was complaining about the few that myself and my colleagues have had issues with that display strong indicators that they shouldn’t be here to begin with. And I stand by my position (“doubling down” in your words) that the airline and our cockpits are better off without these individuals.
But because the terminated individual was a union guy, his termination for (alleged) bad behaviour has been twisted into an attack on our union, and by extension, ourselves and our contract. No, he was simply one of significant number of hiring mistakes we have made that got corrected. And probably not the last. Your explanation of the tremendous erosion of our wages and working conditions is accurate and something that we need to begin to correct in the upcoming negotiations. But that is a completely separate issue from culling bad apples.
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Re: P4C members terminated
Sounds like a lot of speculation (I believe).sportingrifle wrote: ↑Wed Aug 17, 2022 10:52 am
The first issue is the termination of an employee who ( I believe) disregarded the companies policies on publicly commenting on company affairs.
Last edited by negative_g on Wed Aug 17, 2022 11:08 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: P4C members terminated
So, let me make sure I'm understanding you correctly. In your estimate, the younger generation is 5-10x more likely to be a "bad apple" that never should have been hired?sportingrifle wrote: ↑Wed Aug 17, 2022 10:52 am [A] significant number of newer employees also displayed a lack of appreciation for the job and the profession, and that I would be happy if they moved on elsewhere.
At no time did I insinuate that it was an entire generation, or even the majority of new hires. You did. It is perhaps 10 or 20 percent, but still a great increase from the perhaps 2 percent of previous generations.
[They] shouldn’t be here to begin with. I stand by my position ... that the airline and our cockpits are better off without these individuals.
No, he was simply one of significant number of hiring mistakes we have made that got corrected. And probably not the last.
If this is accurate, how would you suggest fixing it?