Advise on first flying job at 500 hours?

[Shiroyuki]

Unfortunately if you’re just emailing résumés to the northern companies you likely won’t get a call with 500 hours. I work up here for one of the companies you mentioned and we’re seeing new hires with well over 1000 hours still. You’ll need to do something to stand out and that would be best done in person. I would recommend you complete that trip to the north. 750 hrs will open up a lot more opportunities than 500 will if you’re able to get to that higher number.

What type or plane was it for well over 1000? Is it a Dash8 or a king air? If it’s on king air then that’s probably a bit surprising for me.
I will do the trip.
Frankly I don’t know what to do after the trip. Flying on my own expense for another 250 hours is $25000, an instructor rating cost a bit less than that. And during Oshkosh I’ve talked to Simcom and they said a initial training with them on a PC12 is US$140000, and US$8000 for King air. Maybe completion of type training could help make my resume look better but paying for my own training seems to be cheating… I’ve heard in some people’s opinion paying for own training is unacceptable in some company’s view. Neither seems to be a good option.

[Shiroyuki]

Make sure you're following up and then also sending a new resume every month to get to increase your chances of having your resume arrive at the same time they need someone. Being there in person, ready to start immediately can help a ton too.

Also, the lack of commercial experience could be hindering you. Flying your own plane when you want is quite a bit different than operating it commercially. Realistically it won't take you very long to get into the swing of things but it may be a factor for the employer.

I agree… Will keep sending updates to companys.

Flying own plane can be pretty different comparing to someone who instruct to 500-1000 hours.
I can and had flew to many places, and in many different weather which an instructor will never fly. A good example would be single pilot ifr and super long cross country flight into some busy US airspace and airports…

[Shiroyuki]

I used to think like you, feel like all ramp jobs are scams that exploit low time pilots.
After working at my current company I kind of see things their perspective a little more.

Small 703/4 operators have very limited training capacity, they’re basically saying “we’ll give you a FO spot, but we don’t have the resources to train all 20 of you this month, if we do 4 per month it’ll be a 5 month wait, are you okay with this?”

With how things are right now, you won’t be working ramp jobs any more than 6 months if you find a company that keeps their promise and hires from within.

So you got all your hours flying your plane around? In most employer’s view you’re just a 250 fresh CPL then.
Sorry if this is harsh, but bombing around in your plane doing XC on sky clear days isn’t exactly competitive experience.

I don’t think ramp position is a “scam” if it’s from a reputable company. But I bet there’s certainly some company with questionable hiring practice around. If the upgrade is strictly seniority based and the company have a healthy flow, I’d likely take the bait. Also working in the middle of nowhere in -20C, seriously if this is a permanent position, the pay should be better, it’s not like sitting inside a office with AC doing office work. Paying reduced wage to new pilot and use a potential position as a reward, I’d say that’s 100% exploitation.

Yeah some people do XC on sky clear day. But as mentioned previously owning my plane mean I can fly on less than ideal condition. I’ve personally flown in hard IMC condition a few times and shoot approaches down to minimum. I’ve had some people, mostly some instructors at my local flight school, may argue this is reckless, but I know my plane and I know my limited, I do thorough flight planing and gather complete weather reports… This is how I learn. Cruise for three hours in fair weather is boring, and as you said it is meaningless except counting hours.

And flying as a class 4 instructor for a flight school, how much experience can I gain? That’s some real fair weather flying… And it’s not even challenging. Flying same thing everyday, circuit, air work, Balabala…

[Shiroyuki]

Regarding the ramp wait time.

No one knows where the industry will be 6 months from now. Everyone knows the industry goes in severe boom - bust cycles. Another bust cycle is coming, it's just a matter of when.

Operators if they're honest should really say "I don't know how long you'll be on the ramp, because things can change in a heart beat".

Canada has a lot of new low cost airlines coming on-line. I don't know how the market supports all them. All it takes is for a couple of them to go down and you're back to movement stagnation.

I’ve heard there’s a theory of ULCC are exploring new market, and more people will fly on a plane because the ticket is more affordable with ULCC, I hope this is enough to support them. It is a welcoming sight to see new market competitors to air canada and west jet.

Operators if they are honest should say this position is seniority based, there is X numbers of people in front of you and we and currently upgrade X number of people every month.

Another concerned I’d say is with the current economic situation, runaway inflation and high interest rate, IDK, my economic 101 course tells me we are on a highway to a recession.

[digits_]

Also, the lack of commercial experience could be hindering you. Flying your own plane when you want is quite a bit different than operating it commercially. Realistically it won't take you very long to get into the swing of things but it may be a factor for the employer.

[...]


I can and had flew to many places, and in many different weather which an instructor will never fly. A good example would be single pilot ifr and super long cross country flight into some busy US airspace and airports…

Maybe. But it would be a horrible thing to mention when meeting future bosses IMO.

It's also unlikely to be very helpful to most operators that would hire 500 hour pilots.
Singple pilot IFR in busy US airspace is unlikely to help you out during low level VFR days flying an old airplane with barely any instruments in it.

And finally, most importantly, when flying privately, you don't have the commercial pressure flying with paying pax or students. Private flying is good to build experience, but any commercial experience would likely trump that.

[Turboprops]

Operators if they are honest should say this position is seniority based, there is X numbers of people in front of you and we and currently upgrade X number of people every month.

That’s exactly what my company has, I’m sure there are other companies doing this as well, you just gotta find it.

Regarding your experience… I never said instructors going to the practice area 10x a day is valuable experience did I? It’s not, but at least operators know what they’re getting when they hire instructors.

Commercial experience means responsibility and liability, also can’t say no just because you don’t feel like leaving your bed today. You have a boss to report to and you better have a good reason for everything you do.

No one cares what you do with your own plane, if i were you I’d stop bragging about it. Everyone thinks they’re top gun before getting in a metroliner, all got humbled real fast on their first trainer.
“How hard can it be? You guys cancel ifr all the time and just fly vfr, exactly what i did last xxx hours!”

[Heavy Rayn]

Unfortunately if you’re just emailing résumés to the northern companies you likely won’t get a call with 500 hours. I work up here for one of the companies you mentioned and we’re seeing new hires with well over 1000 hours still. You’ll need to do something to stand out and that would be best done in person. I would recommend you complete that trip to the north. 750 hrs will open up a lot more opportunities than 500 will if you’re able to get to that higher number.

What type or plane was it for well over 1000? Is it a Dash8 or a king air? If it’s on king air then that’s probably a bit surprising for me.
I will do the trip.
Frankly I don’t know what to do after the trip. Flying on my own expense for another 250 hours is $25000, an instructor rating cost a bit less than that. And during Oshkosh I’ve talked to Simcom and they said a initial training with them on a PC12 is US$140000, and US$8000 for King air. Maybe completion of type training could help make my resume look better but paying for my own training seems to be cheating… I’ve heard in some people’s opinion paying for own training is unacceptable in some company’s view. Neither seems to be a good option.

If you’re interested in instructing I would 100% recommend that over bombing around in your own plane. Do not pay for your own type rating, ever. Basically all new hires have been in the 1000-2000 hr range, with varying experience. Some had backgrounds on multi pistons, multi turbines, some were instructors. The company is a 703, dash 8’s are 705 aircraft.

[Roar]

To the original poster,
It may seem like there is no way to break into the industry from where you're at right now but rest assured that is not the case, we have all been in your shoes with little to no time trying to find our first break. Right now, although not as good as it was for low timers say 3-4 years ago it's certainly better than it has been for the vast majority of time since aviation began. I started in the mid 90's and back then a job left seat in a Navajo required 5000 hours, King Air 10,000 and a corporate Jet you needed space shuttle time. As others have said go in person to companies and network this is how you will land a job, and just refuse to give up on your dream.

[skybluetrek]

Buddy if you have the money to fly your own airplane (ifr machine, trips to Oshkosh, etc, etc...) then just keep flying for fun! Keep doing whatever you're doing to pay for it. It sounds more fun and profitable then a career in aviation!

[IJNShiroyuki]

Unfortunately if you’re just emailing résumés to the northern companies you likely won’t get a call with 500 hours. I work up here for one of the companies you mentioned and we’re seeing new hires with well over 1000 hours still. You’ll need to do something to stand out and that would be best done in person. I would recommend you complete that trip to the north. 750 hrs will open up a lot more opportunities than 500 will if you’re able to get to that higher number.

What type or plane was it for well over 1000? Is it a Dash8 or a king air? If it’s on king air then that’s probably a bit surprising for me.
I will do the trip.
Frankly I don’t know what to do after the trip. Flying on my own expense for another 250 hours is $25000, an instructor rating cost a bit less than that. And during Oshkosh I’ve talked to Simcom and they said a initial training with them on a PC12 is US$140000, and US$8000 for King air. Maybe completion of type training could help make my resume look better but paying for my own training seems to be cheating… I’ve heard in some people’s opinion paying for own training is unacceptable in some company’s view. Neither seems to be a good option.

If you’re interested in instructing I would 100% recommend that over bombing around in your own plane. Do not pay for your own type rating, ever. Basically all new hires have been in the 1000-2000 hr range, with varying experience. Some had backgrounds on multi pistons, multi turbines, some were instructors. The company is a 703, dash 8’s are 705 aircraft.

Thank you for the advise

You're right, I should get my instructor rating... But it just feels so wrong that I know I will be a terrible teacher and probably ruin some studen't flying experience and waste their money, but I had to as that's what the industry is forcing new pilots to do. I will look into getting my instructor rating furthur after my trip to the north, if I didn't get an offer after a few weeks after the trip, will start on the rating.

I suppose those new hiring with over a thousand hours are mostly lay off from the pandemic? I'd like to think companys are still digesting laid off pilot from the pandemic, rather than believing over a thousand hour for a right seat on 703 turbine to be a norm. What you think?

And about type rating, why does people hate this idea so much? We already paid for our PPL, CPL and IFR on our own expense, what difference does it make to pay for another training? Getting my instructor rating is also on my own expense. People are paying for training, either on licensing or rating, to get a job, why does paying for type rating got so much hate? I both understand and don't understand why.

[IJNShiroyuki]

To the original poster,
It may seem like there is no way to break into the industry from where you're at right now but rest assured that is not the case, we have all been in your shoes with little to no time trying to find our first break. Right now, although not as good as it was for low timers say 3-4 years ago it's certainly better than it has been for the vast majority of time since aviation began. I started in the mid 90's and back then a job left seat in a Navajo required 5000 hours, King Air 10,000 and a corporate Jet you needed space shuttle time. As others have said go in person to companies and network this is how you will land a job, and just refuse to give up on your dream.

Thanks for the encouragement.
It really feels desperate to find the first job. Everything seems easier after the first job with more than a thousand hours in the pocket...

[jpilot77]

To the original poster,
It may seem like there is no way to break into the industry from where you're at right now but rest assured that is not the case, we have all been in your shoes with little to no time trying to find our first break. Right now, although not as good as it was for low timers say 3-4 years ago it's certainly better than it has been for the vast majority of time since aviation began. I started in the mid 90's and back then a job left seat in a Navajo required 5000 hours, King Air 10,000 and a corporate Jet you needed space shuttle time. As others have said go in person to companies and network this is how you will land a job, and just refuse to give up on your dream.

Thanks for the encouragement.
It really feels desperate to find the first job. Everything seems easier after the first job with more than a thousand hours in the pocket...

It’s not the thousand hours that makes it easier to find your next job, a lot of people don’t realize, it is the networking. That’s what helps you get jobs. When you are known quantity. I got my first job when I had 400 hours. There was no big difference between my flying skills between 400 hours and 200. The difference is I had made contacts in the industry. Don’t treat your time on the ramp or instructing as a chore, use it to make contacts, same thing at your subsequent jobs. Hope this helps.

[Heavy Rayn]

What type or plane was it for well over 1000? Is it a Dash8 or a king air? If it’s on king air then that’s probably a bit surprising for me.
I will do the trip.
Frankly I don’t know what to do after the trip. Flying on my own expense for another 250 hours is $25000, an instructor rating cost a bit less than that. And during Oshkosh I’ve talked to Simcom and they said a initial training with them on a PC12 is US$140000, and US$8000 for King air. Maybe completion of type training could help make my resume look better but paying for my own training seems to be cheating… I’ve heard in some people’s opinion paying for own training is unacceptable in some company’s view. Neither seems to be a good option.

If you’re interested in instructing I would 100% recommend that over bombing around in your own plane. Do not pay for your own type rating, ever. Basically all new hires have been in the 1000-2000 hr range, with varying experience. Some had backgrounds on multi pistons, multi turbines, some were instructors. The company is a 703, dash 8’s are 705 aircraft.

Thank you for the advise

You're right, I should get my instructor rating... But it just feels so wrong that I know I will be a terrible teacher and probably ruin some studen't flying experience and waste their money, but I had to as that's what the industry is forcing new pilots to do. I will look into getting my instructor rating furthur after my trip to the north, if I didn't get an offer after a few weeks after the trip, will start on the rating.

I suppose those new hiring with over a thousand hours are mostly lay off from the pandemic? I'd like to think companys are still digesting laid off pilot from the pandemic, rather than believing over a thousand hour for a right seat on 703 turbine to be a norm. What you think?

And about type rating, why does people hate this idea so much? We already paid for our PPL, CPL and IFR on our own expense, what difference does it make to pay for another training? Getting my instructor rating is also on my own expense. People are paying for training, either on licensing or rating, to get a job, why does paying for type rating got so much hate? I both understand and don't understand why.

If that is your mindset on instructing you should not get your instructor rating. I believe it is fine to go the instructing route to build hours but if you believe that is what you’ll be doing to your students as an instructor you should go a different route. Personally I didn’t love nor hate instructing. I looked forward to moving on to another challenge but in the meantime I enjoyed sharing my passion for aviation with others and helping them develop their passion.

No these are not people who were laid off. A fair few were instructors. It will slow down in the north very soon for hiring criteria. The main difficulty is currently retaining captains and having people to train the new hires. There is no shortage of pilots with under 1000 hours that are looking for a job. The worse the company is the sooner they will feel hiring constraints though. Lots of hiring is going on but still seeing résumés with lots of hours.

You already paid for all your ratings and licenses to earn the privilege to work as a commercial pilot, it makes no sense to pay to earn that right and then continue to pay after you have advanced to the point of holding a CPL with some hours. If you pay for a type rating it devalues the industry as a whole and is a disservice to yourself and other pilots in a similar situation to you or for the next generation. Simply don’t do it. It’s a waste of your money and a disservice to the industry as a whole.

[propfeather]

But it just feels so wrong that I know I will be a terrible teacher and probably ruin some studen't flying experience and waste their money, but I had to as that's what the industry is forcing new pilots to do. I will look into getting my instructor rating furthur after my trip to the north, if I didn't get an offer after a few weeks after the trip, will start on the rating.

Absolutely do not become an instructor. What a terrible attitude.
Like someone else said, if you can afford to fly your own plane, stick to that.

[Hot Wings]

Flying own plane can be pretty different comparing to someone who instruct to 500-1000 hours.
I can and had flew to many places, and in many different weather which an instructor will never fly. A good example would be single pilot ifr and super long cross country flight into some busy US airspace and airports…

Mav, is that you?


As per your previous comments: perhaps losing the chip on your shoulder might help you not have your resume thrown straight to the trash can. We get that starting out sucks, the pay feels unfair, etc etc etc. We’ve all been there, put our heads down, and got through it. Moaning and wincing about it is just f*cking yourself out of a job.

[IJNShiroyuki]

Flying own plane can be pretty different comparing to someone who instruct to 500-1000 hours.
I can and had flew to many places, and in many different weather which an instructor will never fly. A good example would be single pilot ifr and super long cross country flight into some busy US airspace and airports…

Mav, is that you?


As per your previous comments: perhaps losing the chip on your shoulder might help you not have your resume thrown straight to the trash can. We get that starting out sucks, the pay feels unfair, etc etc etc. We’ve all been there, put our heads down, and got through it. Moaning and wincing about it is just f*cking yourself out of a job.

You're recognising wrong person.

How exactly will that help? They've only saw an email with resume, going to trash can right away anyway.

[digits_]

Flying own plane can be pretty different comparing to someone who instruct to 500-1000 hours.
I can and had flew to many places, and in many different weather which an instructor will never fly. A good example would be single pilot ifr and super long cross country flight into some busy US airspace and airports…

Mav, is that you?


As per your previous comments: perhaps losing the chip on your shoulder might help you not have your resume thrown straight to the trash can. We get that starting out sucks, the pay feels unfair, etc etc etc. We’ve all been there, put our heads down, and got through it. Moaning and wincing about it is just f*cking yourself out of a job.

You're recognising wrong person.

How exactly will that help? They've only saw an email with resume, going to trash can right away anyway.

How do you mention the flying on your own airplane on your resume?

If you put something like 'EXTENSIVE IFR experience flying in BUSY US AIRSPACE in my OWN KICKASS PLANE', it would probably contribute.
It's a hard balance to find. You want to stand out, but you don't want to seem like an arrogant show-off either.

[IJNShiroyuki]

But it just feels so wrong that I know I will be a terrible teacher and probably ruin some studen't flying experience and waste their money, but I had to as that's what the industry is forcing new pilots to do. I will look into getting my instructor rating furthur after my trip to the north, if I didn't get an offer after a few weeks after the trip, will start on the rating.

Absolutely do not become an instructor. What a terrible attitude.
Like someone else said, if you can afford to fly your own plane, stick to that.

It not an "attitude". I'm just not good at explaining and teaching things. It's not like I'm going to be grump and rude if I have to be an instructor, it is more like a self awareness of not good at teaching.

[IJNShiroyuki]

Mav, is that you?


As per your previous comments: perhaps losing the chip on your shoulder might help you not have your resume thrown straight to the trash can. We get that starting out sucks, the pay feels unfair, etc etc etc. We’ve all been there, put our heads down, and got through it. Moaning and wincing about it is just f*cking yourself out of a job.

You're recognising wrong person.

How exactly will that help? They've only saw an email with resume, going to trash can right away anyway.

How do you mention the flying on your own airplane on your resume?

If you put something like 'EXTENSIVE IFR experience flying in BUSY US AIRSPACE in my OWN KICKASS PLANE', it would probably contribute.
It's a hard balance to find. You want to stand out, but you don't want to seem like an arrogant show-off either.

For aircraft ownership part I mostly mentioned as an owner I'm more familiar with systems, maintenance schedules and have did some work on my plane under my mechanic's supervision.

About the flying part, those are just covered in one sentence. Have basic single pilot IFR experience and have completed some long cross country flight into busy airports.

PCC wrote my resume, and I think they did a pretty good job.

[propfeather]

But it just feels so wrong that I know I will be a terrible teacher and probably ruin some studen't flying experience and waste their money, but I had to as that's what the industry is forcing new pilots to do. I will look into getting my instructor rating furthur after my trip to the north, if I didn't get an offer after a few weeks after the trip, will start on the rating.

Absolutely do not become an instructor. What a terrible attitude.
Like someone else said, if you can afford to fly your own plane, stick to that.

It not an "attitude". I'm just not good at explaining and teaching things. It's not like I'm going to be grump and rude if I have to be an instructor, it is more like a self awareness of not good at teaching.

Dude, come on. If you know that you aren't good at explaining or teaching things, how do you think it would be a good idea to TEACH brand new students how to fly?