Blending Jazz and AC. It's time.

[TG]

Get rid of the flat pay, the vaccine requirement and give 15 GDOs per month and you might be amazed at the pile of resume of 6000+ hours 705 capt, jet experience, etc.

Eliminate Flat pay? 100%. Nobody else in North America does that. 4 years? Are you kidding? WB FO under $100k? Go to US pay model - first year salary then type specific hourly (sorry day/night/nav/overseas fans).

Vaccine? I think your beef is with the libs.

15 GDO’s per month? That means 15 days worked per month for everybody - senior and junior. This experiment has already happened on the NB fleet.

The AC application drawer is full. However, a path to a decent T4 by year 2 (non-upgrade) would go a long way towards stimulating higher experience applicants.

The AC CBA is long overdue for an overhaul into the 21st century. Might take new players to make that happen.

Even getting rid of the flat aspect of Air Canada's pay won't help as much as you think.

I work with around 200 people with over 10,000 hours total time and tons of good jet PIC time. Not a single one of us would go to AC as long as the starting pay is in the 50's. Even if it was $50k, $60k, $70k and $80k for the first four years, that isn't an incentive for anyone I know. I have no problem going back to being an FO for a couple of years, but I won't do it for less than my plumber makes.

I can’t find it anymore but someone, sometimes ago, made a pretty good post explaining the main reasons behind this flat pay and why it is to remain at Air Canada for the time being.

Basically there so much budgeted for pilots salaries and if you want to bump the flat pay or remove this concept, money will have to be taken somewhere, from those salaries!
Meaning nobody but the newbies still caught with flat pay would vote for that…

That was my understanding, happy to be corrected if wrong.

[schnitzel2k3]

Eliminate Flat pay? 100%. Nobody else in North America does that. 4 years? Are you kidding? WB FO under $100k? Go to US pay model - first year salary then type specific hourly (sorry day/night/nav/overseas fans).

Vaccine? I think your beef is with the libs.

15 GDO’s per month? That means 15 days worked per month for everybody - senior and junior. This experiment has already happened on the NB fleet.

The AC application drawer is full. However, a path to a decent T4 by year 2 (non-upgrade) would go a long way towards stimulating higher experience applicants.

The AC CBA is long overdue for an overhaul into the 21st century. Might take new players to make that happen.

Even getting rid of the flat aspect of Air Canada's pay won't help as much as you think.

I work with around 200 people with over 10,000 hours total time and tons of good jet PIC time. Not a single one of us would go to AC as long as the starting pay is in the 50's. Even if it was $50k, $60k, $70k and $80k for the first four years, that isn't an incentive for anyone I know. I have no problem going back to being an FO for a couple of years, but I won't do it for less than my plumber makes.

I can’t find it anymore but someone, sometimes ago, made a pretty good post explaining the main reasons behind this flat pay and why it is to remain at Air Canada for the time being.

Basically there so much budgeted for pilots salaries and if you want to bump the flat pay or remove this concept, money will have to be taken somewhere, from those salaries!
Meaning nobody but the newbies still caught with flat pay would vote for that…

That was my understanding, happy to be corrected if wrong.

The money comes from the operation, not from senior salaries. Budget needs to be revised. Management can try and spin it as a loss for senior pilots, but neither side of the pilot group should be giving in.

There needs to be gains steadily across the board in the next set of negotiations - of which flat pay needs to be binned.

Best case scenario for the pilot group:
Cut out first 4 years - 1st year should be nearing 100k with a big jump year 2 (straight to type pay).

The most senior Captains should comfortably be north of 350k with all junior Captains above 225k.

All cargo/Rouge is done at mainline rates.

This is just looking at other intl pacakages and assessing what would be reasonable for AC pilots to get to for the next set of negotiations.

Contract length 5 years.

At no point should the above come close to hurting the bottom line at AC considering industry forecasts, and likely will put them on track to take the lions share of industry applicants. This will have a huge effect on their competition. Westjet will have to raise rates, Porter will have to reconsider their offering, Jazz will have room to come up, and the rest of industry will suddenly have to respond to this vacuum.

All very positive things.

[JoeyBarton]

Everybody would like to see the pay go up. Everything I read in this thread is true but one fact:
Air Canada has no issues attracting qualified and experienced candidates under the fixed rate contract and pay scale.
5 PIT courses so far in 2022. First one was filled with the cancelled course from early covid. The next four were filled with 100% OTS applicants. You can find 767 cargojet and 57 morningstar folks, many 12 year 330 Capt TS drivers, Sunwing Flair Swoop skippers, Cathay and heavy overseas drivers, maybe only 2 Saab 340 captains which is by far the smallest resume you will find in these first 4 PIT. Many TS buddies with 7000h + with 3000h on the 330 not getting any calls. This is not helping acpa's push for hopefully better pay. Those are the facts so far in 2022...
You might see that change in 2023 or 24 but for now there has been unfortunately no shortage of quality applicants.

[lownslow]

Air Canada has no issues attracting qualified and experienced candidates under the fixed rate contract and pay scale…

…You might see that change in 2023 or 24 but for now there has been unfortunately no shortage of quality applicants.

That may not be entirely true. The plan earlier this year had been an initial course of 40 candidates every couple weeks but the reality has been a little over half that. I’ve heard a couple rumours/explanations as to why but I don’t trust and of the various answers enough to commit it to a bunch of internet strangers. I suspect once they run out of new hire candidates from Encore things are going to get real in a hurry, at least in the operations office.

[rudder]

Everybody would like to see the pay go up. Everything I read in this thread is true but one fact:
Air Canada has no issues attracting qualified and experienced candidates under the fixed rate contract and pay scale.
5 PIT courses so far in 2022. First one was filled with the cancelled course from early covid. The next four were filled with 100% OTS applicants. You can find 767 cargojet and 57 morningstar folks, many 12 year 330 Capt TS drivers, Sunwing Flair Swoop skippers, Cathay and heavy overseas drivers, maybe only 2 Saab 340 captains which is by far the smallest resume you will find in these first 4 PIT. Many TS buddies with 7000h + with 3000h on the 330 not getting any calls. This is not helping acpa's push for hopefully better pay. Those are the facts so far in 2022...
You might see that change in 2023 or 24 but for now there has been unfortunately no shortage of quality applicants.

Anybody who believes that the low wage paradigm will prevail is smoking crack.

Competition for pilot labour in Canada is already heated up circa 2022. 2023 and 2024 will be levels of scale above that, notwithstanding a recession (which appears NOT to be affecting travel demand).

150 aircraft planned to be added by LCC’s, ULCC’s, and Porter. That is 1500+ airline pilot jobs.

The ‘low payer’ will not win the bidding war for qualified pilots. They will however be able to look out the window and see their parked fleet.

[JoeyBarton]

Everybody would like to see the pay go up. Everything I read in this thread is true but one fact:
Air Canada has no issues attracting qualified and experienced candidates under the fixed rate contract and pay scale.
5 PIT courses so far in 2022. First one was filled with the cancelled course from early covid. The next four were filled with 100% OTS applicants. You can find 767 cargojet and 57 morningstar folks, many 12 year 330 Capt TS drivers, Sunwing Flair Swoop skippers, Cathay and heavy overseas drivers, maybe only 2 Saab 340 captains which is by far the smallest resume you will find in these first 4 PIT. Many TS buddies with 7000h + with 3000h on the 330 not getting any calls. This is not helping acpa's push for hopefully better pay. Those are the facts so far in 2022...
You might see that change in 2023 or 24 but for now there has been unfortunately no shortage of quality applicants.

Anybody who believes that the low wage paradigm will prevail is smoking crack.

Competition for pilot labour in Canada is already heated up circa 2022. 2023 and 2024 will be levels of scale above that, notwithstanding a recession (which appears NOT to be affecting travel demand).

150 aircraft planned to be added by LCC’s, ULCC’s, and Porter. That is 1500+ airline pilot jobs.

The ‘low payer’ will not win the bidding war for qualified pilots. They will however be able to look out the window and see their parked fleet.

We all agree on that.
However, so far, no shortage of applicants FOR NOW at AC. Many did not get the call...

[Fanblade]

No mainline in North America has a problem attracting applicants as of yet. Well maybe Hawaiian is an exception.

It’s the regionals that take the brunt of the shortage.

That shortage will get exasperated if a glass ceiling is created. If the Jazz flow through is upended, or not respected, it will cost AC dearly. People will leave Jazz to fill the job’s AC is hiring from.

I’m not a Jazz pilot pushing something for Jazz. I’m speaking from experience. Glass ceiling = Exodus of the bottom of the Jazz list.

[rudder]

No mainline in North America has a problem attracting applicants as of yet. Well maybe Hawaiian is an exception.

It’s the regionals that take the brunt of the shortage.

That shortage will get exasperated if a glass ceiling is created. If the Jazz flow through is upended, or not respected, it will cost AC dearly. People will leave Jazz to fill the job’s AC is hiring from.

I’m not a Jazz pilot pushing something for Jazz. I’m speaking from experience. Glass ceiling = Exodus of the bottom of the Jazz list.

Change is coming…..

AC love the A220. More arriving. Mainline starting to take back routes from Express. Rouge will probably do same, particularly the A319 as it was pre-COVID.

Express fleet guarantee is 105 to Dec 31 2025 then 80 thereafter (must all be 76 seats or greater).

Not rocket science to estimate that Express will get smaller over time. However, this will mostly manifest AFTER the current hiring binge at AC (1000+ over 24 months). So, issue is how to keep the train on the tracks between 2022-2025.

Best bet is a better flow system. Reserved seniority that coincides with eligible PIT course. Same as PML 1.0 (2015). AC could therefore tilt OTS hiring in the beginning and move the 60% from Jazz in an orderly fashion over time.

There are lots of opportunities out there. 28 year olds in the left seat of corporate jets making 200k+. Lots of advancement opportunities at the upstart carriers. The ONLY attraction at Jazz for a new-hire is predictable flow to AC as the entry level pay at Jazz (both seats) is grossly deficient. Mess with flow and you will absolutely see the experienced pilots move to better opportunities that are increasingly available.

The next 24 months are effectively a ‘bubble’ for the AC system. But that bubble must be managed. However, right now it seems like all talk and no action. And it is not even the right people that are doing the talking.

Four parties. Four agendas.

[Torontomaplelaughs]

Everybody would like to see the pay go up. Everything I read in this thread is true but one fact:
Air Canada has no issues attracting qualified and experienced candidates under the fixed rate contract and pay scale.
5 PIT courses so far in 2022. First one was filled with the cancelled course from early covid. The next four were filled with 100% OTS applicants. You can find 767 cargojet and 57 morningstar folks, many 12 year 330 Capt TS drivers, Sunwing Flair Swoop skippers, Cathay and heavy overseas drivers, maybe only 2 Saab 340 captains which is by far the smallest resume you will find in these first 4 PIT. Many TS buddies with 7000h + with 3000h on the 330 not getting any calls. This is not helping acpa's push for hopefully better pay. Those are the facts so far in 2022...
You might see that change in 2023 or 24 but for now there has been unfortunately no shortage of quality applicants.

Anybody who believes that the low wage paradigm will prevail is smoking crack.

Competition for pilot labour in Canada is already heated up circa 2022. 2023 and 2024 will be levels of scale above that, notwithstanding a recession (which appears NOT to be affecting travel demand).

150 aircraft planned to be added by LCC’s, ULCC’s, and Porter. That is 1500+ airline pilot jobs.

The ‘low payer’ will not win the bidding war for qualified pilots. They will however be able to look out the window and see their parked fleet.

We all agree on that.
However, so far, no shortage of applicants FOR NOW at AC. Many did not get the call...

Maybe we should be negotiating to pay new hires less to boost the rates of everyone else so that whenever someone applies we can just say "you knew the pay coming here!"

Or maybe we can make flat pay longer to capture more overseas flying as well?? Those new hire 777 FOs & RPs are dirt cheap

[McKinley]

Any truth to a alpa and acpa in partnership to help with lack of crews? Maybe a flow program no more interviews?

Vomit in my mouth before that happens.

Jazz is so desperate, they are hiring anyone with a pulse. Rampant fraud in their recent hires and a few in the flow through from what I hear.

TC should really get on the horn and investigate. For the unsuspecting travelling public.

What rampant fraud ? Can you elaborate ?

[alkaseltzer]

Any truth to a alpa and acpa in partnership to help with lack of crews? Maybe a flow program no more interviews?

Vomit in my mouth before that happens.

Jazz is so desperate, they are hiring anyone with a pulse. Rampant fraud in their recent hires and a few in the flow through from what I hear.

TC should really get on the horn and investigate. For the unsuspecting travelling public.

What rampant fraud ? Can you elaborate ?

No, it would be irresponsible to elaborate on a public forum.

[mmm..bacon]

Any truth to a alpa and acpa in partnership to help with lack of crews? Maybe a flow program no more interviews?

Vomit in my mouth before that happens.

Jazz is so desperate, they are hiring anyone with a pulse. Rampant fraud in their recent hires and a few in the flow through from what I hear.

TC should really get on the horn and investigate. For the unsuspecting travelling public.

What rampant fraud ? Can you elaborate ?

500 MPIC on a Parker pen? would be the first thing that comes to mind...

[Outlaw58]

Vomit in my mouth before that happens.

Jazz is so desperate, they are hiring anyone with a pulse. Rampant fraud in their recent hires and a few in the flow through from what I hear.

TC should really get on the horn and investigate. For the unsuspecting travelling public.

What rampant fraud ? Can you elaborate ?

No, it would be irresponsible to elaborate on a public forum.

More irresponsible than to make an unsubstantiated claim?

58

[daedalusx]

Vomit in my mouth before that happens.

Jazz is so desperate, they are hiring anyone with a pulse. Rampant fraud in their recent hires and a few in the flow through from what I hear.

TC should really get on the horn and investigate. For the unsuspecting travelling public.

What rampant fraud ? Can you elaborate ?

500 MPIC on a Parker pen? would be the first thing that comes to mind...

Yup. I know more than one of these Parker typed MPIC “capts” and they’re not just at Jazz, they’re also at Swoop, Encore, etc.

That being said, how is it any worse than the poor schmuck right seat warmer at Jazz that gets himself 10K line of credit on a 45K salary to go burn gas at night in YYC in order to buy his ATPL so he can finally upgrade.

[sportingrifle]

Apart from unethical, a very dangerous thing to do to your career. You will spend your whole career looking over your shoulder.
A number of years ago, AC fired a guy 4 years after they hired him when it was learned he had Parker Pen time on his initial application. WJ has done likewise.

[the-minister31]

Excuse my ignorance but what is this parker pen thingy? Is it also known as "fly what you can log what you need" or "log 6h night flights way up north in the summer"?

[PeterParker]

Excuse my ignorance but what is this parker pen thingy? Is it also known as "fly what you can log what you need" or "log 6h night flights way up north in the summer"?

I believe it is also called pencil-whipping your logbook?