Best Bear gun?
Moderators: North Shore, sky's the limit, sepia, Sulako, Rudder Bug
In reality very few of us have carry permits for hand guns. So for most of us the question is what to carry for bear PROTECTION in a real world situation. I think the list of practical guns for protection is relatively short. Model 94 30/30 (ease of operation and carry), Marlin 45-70 government guide model with the 18 inch barrel, and a 12 gauge shooting 3 inch 1 1/2 oz. hollow point slugs.
The 30/30 loses it's appeal (with me at least) if I'm in Grizzly country. The 12 gauge, even with a 20 inch rifled slug barrel, can be heavy to tote around. So....that leaves the Marllin in a 45-70. A 45-70 shooting 330 grain hollow points is easy to carry, shoots straight up to 100 yds., and will knock down anything in the bush in North America.
The argument regarding handguns being easy to carry is valid. But outside 30 to 50 yds the handgun becomes problematic. I prefer not to see a grizzly huffing and puffing at me at 80 yds and me only able to stand there and watch the show. Even at closer ranges with a charging bear, and with the adrenilin pumping, it will take a seasoned shooter to place the rounds accurately enough to knock down Yogi. The shooter has also got to be quick enough to re-aquire the target and keep shooting accurately. Have any of you ever witnessed how quickly a black or grizzly can cover 50 yds. At best you'll hit him twice...with any gun.
The key is to have a gun easy enough to handle yet big enough to drop a bear with a max of two rounds. Even if you shoot him in the toe, the 12 gauge or the 45-70 will bring him down.
The 30/30 loses it's appeal (with me at least) if I'm in Grizzly country. The 12 gauge, even with a 20 inch rifled slug barrel, can be heavy to tote around. So....that leaves the Marllin in a 45-70. A 45-70 shooting 330 grain hollow points is easy to carry, shoots straight up to 100 yds., and will knock down anything in the bush in North America.
The argument regarding handguns being easy to carry is valid. But outside 30 to 50 yds the handgun becomes problematic. I prefer not to see a grizzly huffing and puffing at me at 80 yds and me only able to stand there and watch the show. Even at closer ranges with a charging bear, and with the adrenilin pumping, it will take a seasoned shooter to place the rounds accurately enough to knock down Yogi. The shooter has also got to be quick enough to re-aquire the target and keep shooting accurately. Have any of you ever witnessed how quickly a black or grizzly can cover 50 yds. At best you'll hit him twice...with any gun.
The key is to have a gun easy enough to handle yet big enough to drop a bear with a max of two rounds. Even if you shoot him in the toe, the 12 gauge or the 45-70 will bring him down.
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mellow_pilot
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Bored and reading old posts...
Earlier in the thread there is some question as to why more black bear fatalities? Simple fact is that black bears are far more oppertunistic eaters than Grizzlies. A Kodiak will not eat something it hasn't killed (unless it's a salmon it stole form another bear). That's why they tell you to play dead for a Griz. A black bear on the other hand will see you as food, plain and simple. If you play dead, you're just slower moving food. Supposedly you're supposed to fight a black, eye gouges and such, make him think twice about how easy a meal you are. As for protection, I would carry one of these with me all the time.
Earlier in the thread there is some question as to why more black bear fatalities? Simple fact is that black bears are far more oppertunistic eaters than Grizzlies. A Kodiak will not eat something it hasn't killed (unless it's a salmon it stole form another bear). That's why they tell you to play dead for a Griz. A black bear on the other hand will see you as food, plain and simple. If you play dead, you're just slower moving food. Supposedly you're supposed to fight a black, eye gouges and such, make him think twice about how easy a meal you are. As for protection, I would carry one of these with me all the time.
Dyslexics of the world... UNTIE!
You know when you go out in the woods you should wear bells on your shoes so you don't surprise any bears. Also, the way you can tell if there are black bears around is their scat has blueberries and apples in it. Grizzly bear sh*t is larger and has bells in it.
I use a Springfield 1911 with hot loads - its been throated and seared and I use 230 grain bullets. You can almost see 'em come out of the muzzle but they have a tremendous impact, and there's nine of 'em.
I use a Springfield 1911 with hot loads - its been throated and seared and I use 230 grain bullets. You can almost see 'em come out of the muzzle but they have a tremendous impact, and there's nine of 'em.
"What's it doing now?"
"Fly low and slow and throttle back in the turns."
"Fly low and slow and throttle back in the turns."
Fellow I knew at work had 2 bear stories - his uncle was riding his range on horseback and a black bear stalked him, pulled him off his horse and ate him. They found half of him buried where the bear stashed him, and the other half in the bear.
The other story - he shot a bear with a .308 on his front porch and the bear took off into the woods. After taking a ribbing from his father who said he thought he had taught him to shoot better than that, he followed the blood trail 300 metres into the woods, where he found the bear dead with his lungs and heart shot out. Think you can shoot a charging bear at 301 metres?
The other story - he shot a bear with a .308 on his front porch and the bear took off into the woods. After taking a ribbing from his father who said he thought he had taught him to shoot better than that, he followed the blood trail 300 metres into the woods, where he found the bear dead with his lungs and heart shot out. Think you can shoot a charging bear at 301 metres?
"What's it doing now?"
"Fly low and slow and throttle back in the turns."
"Fly low and slow and throttle back in the turns."
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SerialKiller
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From my limited knowledge of guns, and bears, the best gun would be the Colt 1911 with two 10 shot clips....and yes you can by those aftermaket. This would be easy to carry with the "Miami Vice" holster offered by many companys, and packs a good punch. But due to our communist Govt, and perhaps the holster not being too comfortable, the next pick would be the 870 Remington, the best selling shotgun in the world, with SpeedFeed stock carrying 4 shells, a magextension carrying another 7, and a side saddle with 6. The gun is a little heavy with it loaded up, but is all one convienient package. The best rifle to have would be the cheap SKS with a folding stock. The accuarcy is terrible, but remember you are not hunting them at 200 yards, just want to scare them away, or for inclose situations, when accuracy shouldnt matter. It uses the same round as the AK-47 which has proven very effective for in tight combat such as Vietnam. This gun has no problems shooting through a 4" block of wood at 40 yards, so I am sure it should do fairly welll on a bear. If you can find an older version of this gun they will come with a 10 shot integral magazine, and the later versions have 5 for our precious gun laws. Better yet would be to find the rarer ones with a detatchable mag, but remember dont load more than 5 in it or you willl be a common criminal and placed in jail. Anyway those are just my thoughts.
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I_Drive_Planes
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SerialKiller I mean this in the nicest way, but if you don't know what the hell you are talking about please keep your thoughts to yourself. I won't tear your post apart, but I really hope you learn something about firearms and about bears between now and when you become old enough to hold a PAL.SerialKiller wrote:From my limited knowledge of guns, and bears, the best gun would be the Colt 1911 with two 10 shot clips....and yes you can by those aftermaket. This would be easy to carry with the "Miami Vice" holster offered by many companys, and packs a good punch. But due to our communist Govt, and perhaps the holster not being too comfortable, the next pick would be the 870 Remington, the best selling shotgun in the world, with SpeedFeed stock carrying 4 shells, a magextension carrying another 7, and a side saddle with 6. The gun is a little heavy with it loaded up, but is all one convienient package. The best rifle to have would be the cheap SKS with a folding stock. The accuarcy is terrible, but remember you are not hunting them at 200 yards, just want to scare them away, or for inclose situations, when accuracy shouldnt matter. It uses the same round as the AK-47 which has proven very effective for in tight combat such as Vietnam. This gun has no problems shooting through a 4" block of wood at 40 yards, so I am sure it should do fairly welll on a bear. If you can find an older version of this gun they will come with a 10 shot integral magazine, and the later versions have 5 for our precious gun laws. Better yet would be to find the rarer ones with a detatchable mag, but remember dont load more than 5 in it or you willl be a common criminal and placed in jail. Anyway those are just my thoughts.
Planes
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SerialKiller
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I used to carry the Winchester Defender Marine shotgun. It's nickel plated or stainless I think and doesn't rust like the regular Defender. If you don't immediately dry the regular defender before you put it back in the case it's going to be rusty when you open it up the next time. And when you're working 16 hour days in the bush you don't always get the chance to go back and meticulously dry your gun.
We alternated 000 buck with slugs, as it had the better hit percentage. We used to set up bush camps in pretty remote places and we'd have bears coming through the cookshack at night and I'd inevitably have to wake up and go fire a few rounds off to scare them away. Sometimes one or two would become pests and kept coming back after firing a few warning shots. In total I only had to shoot three black bears in the four years I worked in the bush. But I can tell you that the Defender did the job pretty effectively. I shot the last bear in the shoulder with a Winchester model 70 30.06 and it scampered off into the bush. Wandering through dense bush in the middle of the night with a flashlight in your teeth looking for a wounded bear with a 30.06 was not smart so I went and grabbed the Defender instead. I found the bruin laid up with his back against a tree making an eerie whining sound like a crying baby. I don't have to tell you the rest but again, the Defender is very effective at close range which is where you're going to be shooting in a defensive situation.
We alternated 000 buck with slugs, as it had the better hit percentage. We used to set up bush camps in pretty remote places and we'd have bears coming through the cookshack at night and I'd inevitably have to wake up and go fire a few rounds off to scare them away. Sometimes one or two would become pests and kept coming back after firing a few warning shots. In total I only had to shoot three black bears in the four years I worked in the bush. But I can tell you that the Defender did the job pretty effectively. I shot the last bear in the shoulder with a Winchester model 70 30.06 and it scampered off into the bush. Wandering through dense bush in the middle of the night with a flashlight in your teeth looking for a wounded bear with a 30.06 was not smart so I went and grabbed the Defender instead. I found the bruin laid up with his back against a tree making an eerie whining sound like a crying baby. I don't have to tell you the rest but again, the Defender is very effective at close range which is where you're going to be shooting in a defensive situation.
Last edited by BuckNiner on Mon Feb 26, 2007 7:05 pm, edited 1 time in total.
SerialKiller
The 45ACP just doesn't have the penetration or energy to break bone and penetrate. I own 2. A Kimber and a Sig 220. Great defense gun for Law-Enforcement but I wouldn't bet my enemies life on killing a bear with any reliable results. Only the bigger handgun calibres are even given a nod of approval by the experts. In AK where I spend plenty of time, the locals who work and live in the bush carry a variety of stuff. I have never seen a 45. Once a 10mm Glock. Still a poor choice. If you can't shoot through the shoulder and break bone or penetrate the skull, the gun isn't one for consideration. A 45 ACP cannot with any regularity, accomplish this task.
Here is what a Skull of a bear looks like compared to a human for which the 45 was designed for
The 45ACP just doesn't have the penetration or energy to break bone and penetrate. I own 2. A Kimber and a Sig 220. Great defense gun for Law-Enforcement but I wouldn't bet my enemies life on killing a bear with any reliable results. Only the bigger handgun calibres are even given a nod of approval by the experts. In AK where I spend plenty of time, the locals who work and live in the bush carry a variety of stuff. I have never seen a 45. Once a 10mm Glock. Still a poor choice. If you can't shoot through the shoulder and break bone or penetrate the skull, the gun isn't one for consideration. A 45 ACP cannot with any regularity, accomplish this task.
Here is what a Skull of a bear looks like compared to a human for which the 45 was designed for
Athabascan Quote: "Know one knows the ways of the wind or the Caribou".
I'm with Onceacop on this one. The .45 has exactly the effect that we're looking for...if you fire it at a human. A 10mm might do the job, but that round is a real handful. Lots of recoil, which means that you'll take longer to reaccquire your sight picture.
Let's also bear in mind that achieving and maintaining a high degree of proficiency with a pistol requires practice. Lots of it. Constantly. Unless you're putting rounds downrange every single week, your ability to make the crucial shots when it counts (very small window if a griz is charging) is suspect at best.
In contrast, a skills required to put rounds on target with a long gun are far less perishable. I no longer shoot with any degree of regularity, but on the odd occaison that I go to the range, I can still shoot a two inch group at 100 meters.
A 12 ga. is the way to go if you ask me. I'm not going to say that there aren't any lever-action rifles out there that would fit the bill, because I'm fairly certain that somebody makes a heavy, short, slow round that hits like a thunderbolt.
I'll also say that you don't need fancy sidesaddle shell carriers or anything of the sort. Pull the plug out of the cylinder, put an extension of if there's on available, and carry a dozen spare shells in your pack. If you've had enough time to fire off 6 aimed rounds since the bear started charging, one of two things is true.
1.You're such a poor shot that you might as well not have a gun...and the bear was making a bluff charge.
2.You've already disabled or killed the bear.
In either case, the speed with which you get the extra rounds into the weapon isn't critical.
Let's also bear in mind that achieving and maintaining a high degree of proficiency with a pistol requires practice. Lots of it. Constantly. Unless you're putting rounds downrange every single week, your ability to make the crucial shots when it counts (very small window if a griz is charging) is suspect at best.
In contrast, a skills required to put rounds on target with a long gun are far less perishable. I no longer shoot with any degree of regularity, but on the odd occaison that I go to the range, I can still shoot a two inch group at 100 meters.
A 12 ga. is the way to go if you ask me. I'm not going to say that there aren't any lever-action rifles out there that would fit the bill, because I'm fairly certain that somebody makes a heavy, short, slow round that hits like a thunderbolt.
I'll also say that you don't need fancy sidesaddle shell carriers or anything of the sort. Pull the plug out of the cylinder, put an extension of if there's on available, and carry a dozen spare shells in your pack. If you've had enough time to fire off 6 aimed rounds since the bear started charging, one of two things is true.
1.You're such a poor shot that you might as well not have a gun...and the bear was making a bluff charge.
2.You've already disabled or killed the bear.
In either case, the speed with which you get the extra rounds into the weapon isn't critical.
Please don't tell my mother that I work in the Oilpatch...she still thinks that I'm the piano player at a whorehouse.
http://www.marstar.ca/gf-norinco/YL-1JZ.shtm
If your thinking 12 gauge pump this might be a good option.
If your set on handgun what about a IMI Desert Eagle semi auto 50 cal? I
If your thinking 12 gauge pump this might be a good option.
If your set on handgun what about a IMI Desert Eagle semi auto 50 cal? I
Does anyone have experience with the rifled barrell shotguns they use in the states for deer hunting?
They say they shoot real straight, and have some interesting loads available saboted slugs etc...
also what about sights, iron sights for sure but I have heard that elevated sights like M16 style an inch or two off the barrell give a better field of view on a moving target and during target reaquisition on following shots after recoil.
They say they shoot real straight, and have some interesting loads available saboted slugs etc...
also what about sights, iron sights for sure but I have heard that elevated sights like M16 style an inch or two off the barrell give a better field of view on a moving target and during target reaquisition on following shots after recoil.
I have alwys liked the marlin 45-70 you can get factory loads up to 450 grain, it 18.5 inches and avilable in stainless.
maybe I just like big lever guns.
Marlin also makes a .444P but i haven't seen one, anyone know the mag capacity?
good range and not too heavy to pack, 450 grains of anything is gonna put a bear in its tracks. I have seen some hollowpoint for the big marlins but dont know if they go up to 450 grain.
maybe I just like big lever guns.
Marlin also makes a .444P but i haven't seen one, anyone know the mag capacity?
good range and not too heavy to pack, 450 grains of anything is gonna put a bear in its tracks. I have seen some hollowpoint for the big marlins but dont know if they go up to 450 grain.
I use 330 grain hollow points in my 45.70. I am not sure if you can get hollow points in a bigger factory load, but they are easy enough to load yourself.
As for the question of a rifled slug barrel, I like them. I have a Remington 870 combo. Rifled 18 inch slug barrel (3" 12gauge) and it also comes with an interchangeble 26 inch modified choke barrel. I prefer my Marlin in the bush over the Remington purely because of weight and ease of use. Even with the short slug barrel the Remington is still heavier and bulkier. I know the Remigton will knock down just about everything ( I use 1 1/2 oz hollow point slugs) but I still like my 45.70 better. At least for this application.
As for the question of a rifled slug barrel, I like them. I have a Remington 870 combo. Rifled 18 inch slug barrel (3" 12gauge) and it also comes with an interchangeble 26 inch modified choke barrel. I prefer my Marlin in the bush over the Remington purely because of weight and ease of use. Even with the short slug barrel the Remington is still heavier and bulkier. I know the Remigton will knock down just about everything ( I use 1 1/2 oz hollow point slugs) but I still like my 45.70 better. At least for this application.
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goldeneagle_53
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The one I carry with me is the 30-06, at leat 180gr. and perhaps silvertips. They are cheap enough and get the job done fast. What kind of rifle is a bogus question. Just don't use a god damn '22 or 223 on any bear. If you don't kill him with that first shot you make him mad! And that, my friend, is bad news.
Quote from gun mag guy . Hawks "Not only are these shotguns with rifled barrells technically rifles, they shoot like rifles. In fact, they equal traditional big game rifle cartridges such as the .45-70 and .38-55."
The secret service agent clearing an intruder off the white house lawn on TV the other day had tall blade sights M16 style on the front of his shotgun (for shooting non lethal bean bags maybe??) I guess this confirms the practicality of these sights for shotguns.
Rifled barrels are not that expensive an add on to a lot of shotguns.
The secret service agent clearing an intruder off the white house lawn on TV the other day had tall blade sights M16 style on the front of his shotgun (for shooting non lethal bean bags maybe??) I guess this confirms the practicality of these sights for shotguns.
Rifled barrels are not that expensive an add on to a lot of shotguns.
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ScudRunner
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