Electric Airliner a Step Closer

[rookiepilot]

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles ... r-business

Plane set for delivery in 2028 is 50% bigger than prior design
Swedish startup secures Saab, Air Canada as new investors

[Bug_Stomper_01]

https://skiesmag.com/news/air-canada-pu ... VPK_7586TM

Yep seeing this everywhere this morning

[SPR]

Fully loaded, the ES-30 is projected to have an all-electric, zero-emission range of 200 kilometers. According to Heart, the range could be extended to 400 km with power supplemented by the generators, and up to 800 km if the load is restricted to 25 passengers.

It doesn't say if this includes IFR reserves, but this range is utterly useless in Canada. YYZ-YOW is 364 km, YYZ-YSB is 340, YYC-YLW is 402, YYC-YEG is 245, YVR-YLW is 288...This will basically only be good for ultra-short hops, unless they're going to load-restrict every single flight. It's a PR move to make the company look environmentally friendly.

[goingmissed]

Fully loaded, the ES-30 is projected to have an all-electric, zero-emission range of 200 kilometers. According to Heart, the range could be extended to 400 km with power supplemented by the generators, and up to 800 km if the load is restricted to 25 passengers.

It doesn't say if this includes IFR reserves, but this range is utterly useless in Canada. YYZ-YOW is 364 km, YYZ-YSB is 340, YYC-YLW is 402, YYC-YEG is 245, YVR-YLW is 288...This will basically only be good for ultra-short hops, unless they're going to load-restrict every single flight. It's a PR move to make the company look environmentally friendly.

You're looking for more popular routes. At 30 seats, it's going to be short thin routes.

Where I can see them being used is on routes such as YYC-YQL, YYZ-YGK, YYZ-YXU, YVR-YYJ...

[flyer 1492]

So, how do you get to North America?

[330heavy]

So, how do you get to North America?

In a large Antov type plane, that will take a few years for these ES-30 planes to offset the carbon of

[goldeneagle]

It doesn't say if this includes IFR reserves, but this range is utterly useless in Canada.

With a 200km range it can go YVR -> YYJ return. If it is plugged in during loading and unloading, it could immediately turn for YVR->YCD return. Once back from those flights, it can do YVR->YQQ. Depending on how fast it charges on the ground in YQQ, it may well be able to do that as a turn too, just charging while sitting for the unload / load pax cycle. On all of these runs, there is an IFR alternate available within the 200km range quoted. For YCD and YYJ the alternate is 'return to yvr'. For yqq the alternate is 'up to ybl'. And these are the routes available for 'all electric'.

It's a plug in hybrid, has generators, range goes up to 400 km at that point. Out of YVR that brings YBL, YKA, YLW, and YYF into the picture. Again, all of those runs can be done, including off to alternate, within 400km. It's only 30 seats, most of these runs are currently serviced by the Q, so, they can get capacity back by upping frequency.

Now cut ticket sales back to just 25 instead of 30 and you see it can reach YZP, YPR, YYD, YDQ, YXS, YCG, YXC, and have an ifr alternate available within the quoted 800km range still. Yes, for these it probably needs a significant charge time on the ground, but lots of them are end stations, just park the machine there overnight, a lot of the travel demand in these spots is folks flying out to the big city on the early am departure, then wanting to return last flight in the evening. The machine can launch out of the end station in the early morning, get back to YVR, do the island shuttle all day then off to an end station for the night again.

Just the feeder routes in BC alone could keep a small fleet busy.

In the end, it's going to be all about cost of operating, but even if the all up cost per seat of operating is on par or slightly above that of the Q, deploying this thing between the mainland and the island would buy an avalanche of publicity that you cant buy at any price.

[goldeneagle]

So, how do you get to North America?

On a boat.

[‘Bob’]

So, how do you get to North America?

In a large Antov type plane, that will take a few years for these ES-30 planes to offset the carbon of

It won’t offset all of the carbon emissions.

Therefore… let’s not use it and use planes that emit more carbon.

I love the logic that comes from having your conclusion first.

[Scuderia]

Great for the Vancouver Island runs like goldeneagle described.

Stretching its legs to the interior though I wonder what impact running anti-ice systems will have on range. The artists renderings obviously aren't a fantastic source, but a heated wing could use up a lot of energy -- although I'm no engineer.

[fish4life]

Great for the Vancouver Island runs like goldeneagle described.

Stretching its legs to the interior though I wonder what impact running anti-ice systems will have on range. The artists renderings obviously aren't a fantastic source, but a heated wing could use up a lot of energy -- although I'm no engineer.

If imagine it just runs boots not heated surfaces

[negative_g]

I see this being a plane that is way more useful for a place like PasCo on the west coast or PAL hopping around the maritimes.

[goldeneagle]

Great for the Vancouver Island runs like goldeneagle described.

Stretching its legs to the interior though I wonder what impact running anti-ice systems will have on range. The artists renderings obviously aren't a fantastic source, but a heated wing could use up a lot of energy -- although I'm no engineer.

I think most folks are confusing this thing with an 'electric airplane'. It's not, it's a plug in hybrid. Anti ice could come from bleed air on the generators. They will need to carry fuel for all but the absolute shortest of runs anyways, so not a big deal to fire up the generators if you run into ice, just means the batteries dont deplete as fast. The plane has 4 motors, I could see turning on de-ice requiring one on each side switched from electric to hybrid mode, not a big deal, in my car that's just a push button.

If you stop thinking 'electric' and start thinking plug in hybrid, puts a whole new perspective on it's ability. 800km (500 miles) with 25 pax or 400km (250 miles) with 30. Think of the fuel costs when you can do YVR->YKA with 25 to 30 pax burning about the same fuel as a 172 would on the same trip, the rest came from the batteries. Go look at the company website, they claim 30 minutes to recharge from a fast charger setup, so it is feasable to top the battery during the unload / load process. Electricity is FAR cheaper than jet fuel for the same amount of energy in storage, this I can say from experience, my daily driver is a plug in hybrid. For us, electric miles were about 1/4 the cost of gas miles comparing gas to electric prices, and that was a year ago, so it's even more cost effective today. Car only does 50km on a fully charged battery, but that doesn't mean we cant go on a 200km trip, just means it becomes a regular hybrid after 50km.

A few other interesting things it brings to the table. Plan a leg so that both arrival and departure at the other end can be done on electric, so much for noise regulations (hello YTZ).

What I see with this thing, it's a replacement for the 1900 on the 3rd tier routes, modern airplane with MUCH lower fuel costs.

[Inverted2]

The 5 million investment is pocket change for AC but the virtue signalling to the Greta’s of the world will pay off many times over. It’s just a paper concept at this time. Whether they build it or not who knows. But yes it will require more carbon to build it and transport it than it will offset like electric cars but hey have at er.

[rookiepilot]

The sheer level of emotional hate for clean energy battery tech I read out there, makes me want to go all in. And I am in. The vitrol is amazing. I’m not Greta. It just makes sense.

Musta been the same when horse and buggy’s started to disappear in favour of cars.

People hate change at a deep deep level.

[propfeather]

I don't think the battery technology is there quite yet but the rate at which batteries are increasing in capacity while staying the same weight or reducing weight is very promising.

The beauty of a hybrid as I see it is that you can run an APU at a steady state for maximum efficiency to provide bleed air + electricity to charge the batteries and/or directly power the electric motors.

It'll take a while but it is likely the future.

I think we can all agree that charging batteries from 'dirty' electrical generation won't do any good.

[JHR]

The sheer level of emotional hate for clean energy battery tech I read out there, makes me want to go all in. And I am in. The vitrol is amazing. I’m not Greta. It just makes sense.

Musta been the same when horse and buggy’s started to disappear in favour of cars.

People hate change at a deep deep level.

It's not all rainbows and lollypops...
https://www.euronews.com/green/2022/02/ ... ric-future

[rookiepilot]

The sheer level of emotional hate for clean energy battery tech I read out there, makes me want to go all in. And I am in. The vitrol is amazing. I’m not Greta. It just makes sense.

Musta been the same when horse and buggy’s started to disappear in favour of cars.

People hate change at a deep deep level.

It's not all rainbows and lollypops...
https://www.euronews.com/green/2022/02/ ... ric-future

Nothing new is. Think of the beginnings of aviation. Death traps, so many accidents.

Growing pains are normal.

Its been the same thing with every major transformation in history.

They will figure it out. They have to.

[all_ramped_up]

I don't think the battery technology is there quite yet but the rate at which batteries are increasing in capacity while staying the same weight or reducing weight is very promising.

The beauty of a hybrid as I see it is that you can run an APU at a steady state for maximum efficiency to provide bleed air + electricity to charge the batteries and/or directly power the electric motors.

It'll take a while but it is likely the future.

I think we can all agree that charging batteries from 'dirty' electrical generation won't do any good.

Exactly. I see hybrids providing a good bridge until the power capacity to weight ratio of batteries is solved.

Having a small turbine like an RR250 or even smaller APU to top up your batteries is definitely going to get us closer.

[sarg]

Great for the Vancouver Island runs like goldeneagle described.

Stretching its legs to the interior though I wonder what impact running anti-ice systems will have on range. The artists renderings obviously aren't a fantastic source, but a heated wing could use up a lot of energy -- although I'm no engineer.

I think most folks are confusing this thing with an 'electric airplane'. It's not, it's a plug in hybrid. Anti ice could come from bleed air on the generators. They will need to carry fuel for all but the absolute shortest of runs anyways, so not a big deal to fire up the generators if you run into ice, just means the batteries dont deplete as fast. The plane has 4 motors, I could see turning on de-ice requiring one on each side switched from electric to hybrid mode, not a big deal, in my car that's just a push button.

If you stop thinking 'electric' and start thinking plug in hybrid, puts a whole new perspective on it's ability. 800km (500 miles) with 25 pax or 400km (250 miles) with 30. Think of the fuel costs when you can do YVR->YKA with 25 to 30 pax burning about the same fuel as a 172 would on the same trip, the rest came from the batteries. Go look at the company website, they claim 30 minutes to recharge from a fast charger setup, so it is feasable to top the battery during the unload / load process. Electricity is FAR cheaper than jet fuel for the same amount of energy in storage, this I can say from experience, my daily driver is a plug in hybrid. For us, electric miles were about 1/4 the cost of gas miles comparing gas to electric prices, and that was a year ago, so it's even more cost effective today. Car only does 50km on a fully charged battery, but that doesn't mean we cant go on a 200km trip, just means it becomes a regular hybrid after 50km.

A few other interesting things it brings to the table. Plan a leg so that both arrival and departure at the other end can be done on electric, so much for noise regulations (hello YTZ).

What I see with this thing, it's a replacement for the 1900 on the 3rd tier routes, modern airplane with MUCH lower fuel costs.

Not according to Heart's website. You're hauling 1900 loads at the cost of of a 50 seat turboprop.

Competitive Operating Costs:
– cash operating cost per seat similar to 50-seats turboprop

[goldeneagle]

Not according to Heart's website. You're hauling 1900 loads at the cost of of a 50 seat turboprop.

Competitive Operating Costs:
– cash operating cost per seat similar to 50-seats turboprop

The cost per seat is equivalent to that of a 50 seat machine. A 1900 costs substantially more per seat as compared to something with 50 seats.

[tsgarp]

It’s a great concept, but I’ll be more interest to see how it actually works.

[sarg]

Not according to Heart's website. You're hauling 1900 loads at the cost of of a 50 seat turboprop.

Competitive Operating Costs:
– cash operating cost per seat similar to 50-seats turboprop

The cost per seat is equivalent to that of a 50 seat machine. A 1900 costs substantially more per seat as compared to something with 50 seats.

The CASM of a 1900 is about 60% higher than a Q300. Do you really think in the I want to fly in first class but pay bus priced tickets that you 40-50% more per ticket for a "green flight"?

Because that's what we're talking about to have an equivalent RASM your ticket prices would be double a Q300.

And all the same arguments about cars still exist, carbon offset depends on how the hydro is supplied plus the grid required. European hydro prices are up about 400% in the last 12 months with the current crisis exposing the problem with the green power transition.

[goldeneagle]

The CASM of a 1900 is about 60% higher than a Q300. Do you really think in the I want to fly in first class but pay bus priced tickets that you 40-50% more per ticket for a "green flight"?

The cost per seat on this thing is supposed to be the same as the cost per seat on your Q300 (the 50 seat comparison). So please explain the math to me as to why the tickets would have to be 50% higher ?

[wan2fly99]

Electric all bull where do yu think the power for electrics come from?

Been studies done on electric batteries on what emission it takes to make them

The elites want to ge more rich Patheic