Ran out of Gas/Fuel Mismanagement Thread

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Bede
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Re: Ran out of Gas Thread

Post by Bede »

WANP wrote: Sun May 08, 2022 11:56 am I obviously know a lot more than the captain on that air Canada 767 does.
Yes of course you do...
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Re: Ran out of Gas Thread

Post by Bede »

WANP wrote: Sun May 08, 2022 12:00 pm The pilot can look left and up, then right and up, there is a tube on each side, at the wings root. Look at the tubes, seeing the fuel in them, and where it is, tells you how much is left.
Carry a flashlight for night flight.
A magna-stick? There's a lot more than one at each wing root. If there was only one at the root it would read full pretty much all the time due to the dihedral.
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Re: Ran out of Gas Thread

Post by Old fella »

Bede wrote: Sun May 08, 2022 2:15 pm
WANP wrote: Sun May 08, 2022 11:56 am I obviously know a lot more than the captain on that air Canada 767 does.
Yes of course you do...



The dude in question(WANP) is a classic example of multiple alias types, been around long enough here to see the similar writing styles.

:|
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Last edited by Old fella on Mon May 09, 2022 6:42 am, edited 1 time in total.
WANP
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Re: Ran out of Gas Thread

Post by WANP »

Old fella wrote: Sun May 08, 2022 2:51 pm
Bede wrote: Sun May 08, 2022 2:15 pm
WANP wrote: Sun May 08, 2022 11:56 am I obviously know a lot more than the captain on that air Canada 767 does.
Yes of course you do...



The dude in question is a classic example of multiple alias, been around long enough here to see similar writing styles.

:|
Oh, so bede is one of those, good to know.

Put him on my foes list already.
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Re: Ran out of Gas Thread

Post by TG »

WANP wrote: Sun May 08, 2022 11:56 am I have never once come close to running out of fuel.
If stars are lining up running out of fuel can easily happen, like it did to me back in the 90's.

Long story short:
-2 C-206's on wheels.
-One with long range tanks, one with normal tanks.
-Got assigned the "Normal tank one" at the end of a busy flying week done on the long range one.
-I didn't do it's last refuelling.
-Somehow the long range fuel dip stick ended up in the wrong aircraft. Most probably from the guy who last refuelled our 206s one after the other and using the same dip stick without noticing the tanks sizes differences (It's written next to the fuel caps)
-Total Mickey mouse fuel gauges so yes! I Did dip the tanks before going but probably due to fatigue, own stupidity and having flown the other one the days before I never noticed picking up the wrong stick in the pocket's door!
-The engine finally quit down wind! Landed with no damage done but to my own pride.



I broke this chain of even wayyy to far down the road! :|
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Last edited by TG on Sun May 15, 2022 11:54 pm, edited 1 time in total.
pelmet
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Re: Ran out of Gas Thread

Post by pelmet »

TG wrote: Mon May 09, 2022 12:57 am
WANP wrote: Sun May 08, 2022 11:56 am I have never once come close to running out of fuel.
I lost count of all your allias but welcome back anyway :mrgreen:

If stars are lining up running out of fuel can easily happen, like it did to me back in the 90's.

Long story short:
-2 C-206's on wheels.
-One with long range tanks, one with normal tanks.
-Got assigned the "Normal tank one" at the end of a busy flying week done on the long range one.
-I didn't do it's last refuelling.
-Somehow the long range fuel dip stick ended up in the wrong aircraft. Most probably from the guy who last refuelled our 206s one after the other and using the same dip stick without noticing the tanks sizes differences (It's written next to the fuel caps)
-Total Mickey mouse fuel gauges so yes! I Did dip the tanks before going but probably due to fatigue, own stupidity and having flown the other one the days before I never noticed picking up the wrong stick in the pocket's door!
-The engine finally quit down wind! Landed with no damage done but to my own pride.



I broke this chain of even wayyy to far down the road! :|
It is interesting how events can line up and this is a very good example of it. And it is good to plan in advance. Two aircraft of the same type with different tank volumes…..best to make a procedure for yourself to always remind yourself prior to each flight of which aircraft you are on(long range/short range). Make sure each dipstick has the registration of the aircraft on it and verbally make sure as you go to dip the tanks to verbally confirm, such as saying “JZH” as you look at the dipstick then saying “JZH” as you look at the registration. Takes 5 seconds. A little paranoia (this is more for renters and people using multiple aircraft, not so critical for the owner that only flies their own aircraft).

It is like saying to yourself 100 Low Lead when you read it off the fuel truck as it drives up to you typical avgas powered aircraft and noting it on the fuel bill.

A dipstick issue I come across sometimes is the type that is calibrated for two different sized tanks on the same aircraft. That is why it is good to check and read all sides of it, each time one is used.

A lot of pilots just grab the dipstick and only look at the line where the fuel has made it wet(myself included).
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Re: Ran out of Gas Thread

Post by pelmet »

Personally, when I get to the Before Takeoff Checklist item that says Fuel Selector, I will point at the selector and then the appropriate fuel guage or guages and respond with something such as "Left - Quantity sufficient", even if the checklist doesn't mention the quantity part.

C-GOEX, a privately registered amateur-built Lancair 320, was conducting a local flight from the
Olds-Didsbury airport, AB (CEA3) with only the pilot on board. Shortly after take-off, at an altitude
of approximately 50 feet AGL, the engine (Lycoming IO-360) stopped producing power. The pilot
performed a forced landing, with the landing gear retracted, in a field adjacent to the airport. The
pilot was able to exit the aircraft uninjured; however, the aircraft sustained minor damaged. The
ELT did activate, and a signal was received by the Joint Rescue Co-ordination Center. Emergency
services responded to the scene.

Subsequent investigation by the aircraft owner after the accident found that the fuel tank selected
for take-off contained only trace amounts of fuel while the gauge indicated 2 US gallons were
remaining.
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Re: Ran out of Gas Thread

Post by broken_slinky »

This guy checked all the boxes of what not to do when you want to go flying at night:
https://abcnews.go.com/US/pilot-landed- ... d=86888899
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Re: Ran out of Gas Thread

Post by pelmet »

While I don't know the details of this accident, I am reminded about the inaccuracy of even properly working fuel guages in taildraggers. Accurate in level flight only. The little taildragger that I do that majority of my tailwheel flying on this year has a dipstick but it does not have a registration marked on it and I have no idea how accurate it is. That being said fuel guages in that aircraft does seem to have an error on the safer side when checking fuel level on the ground. Not sure if this applies to all taildraggers though. Anybody have their own experiences to share.

"C-GRSP, a Piper PA-25-235 operated by Miccar Aerial Ltd. departed Yorkton Muni (CYQV), SK. to
conduct aerial application 7 nm miles south of CYQV. During the aerial application flight,
approximately 1 hour 35 minutes after departure, the engine (AVCO Lycoming 0-540-B2C5) lost all
power. While conducting a forced landing, the aircraft speed reduced and the aircraft entered a
stall at a low altitude. The aircraft impacted the ground and sustained substantial damage. The pilot
was not injured.
An inspection of the aircraft by the operator determined that both fuel tanks were empty. There
were no signs of fuel leaks."
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Re: Ran out of Gas Thread

Post by pelmet »

Suspect that the guage wasn't indicating accurately......

C-FIFJ, a De Havilland DHC-2 MK1 aircraft operated by Transwest Air Limited, was enroute from
the La Ronge water aerodrome (CJZ9), SK, to Southend (CKA9), SK, with only the pilot onboard.
While in cruise, the pilot noticed irregular fuel pressure indications and then consulted with the
company's maintenance control center. The pilot then decided to return to La Ronge/Barber Field
(CYVC) SK. During final approach into CYVC, all fuel pressure was lost and the engine (Pratt &
Whitney R985) lost power. The pilot declared a Pan Pan and then completed a successful forced
landing.

After troubleshooting the system, it was realized that the rear fuel tank was empty. The fuel tank
was switched and the engine was then restarted successfully.
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Re: Ran out of Gas Thread

Post by pelmet »

CF-ZPO, a privately registered Aero Commander 100-180, was conducting a visual flight rules trip
from Prince George (CYXS), BC, to Vanderhoof, (CAU4) BC with only the pilot on board. Shortly
after takeoff, in the climb through approximately 300 feet above ground level, the engine (Avco
Lycoming, O-360-A2F) lost power. The pilot switched the fuel selector from the right tank (which
had been left nearly empty) position to both tanks. This did not rectify the power loss. The airplane
landed hard on the grass to the right of Runway 06-24, bounced, and slid onto the runway. It came
to a halt near the center line. The left main gear leg was broken but there were no injuries. A signal
from the emergency locator transmitter was not received by the Canadian Mission Control Centre.
The owner is in communication with maintenance personnel and has ordered a replacement for the
broken landing gear.
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Re: Ran out of Gas Thread

Post by pelmet »

Remember folks.....Airplanes fly better slightly overloaded than they do out of gas. And I haven't felt the need to start a thread about slightly overweight aircraft yet.......


C-GUIM, a Canadian Flight Instructor Inc. Cessna 172M, was on a VFR flight from Claresholm
Industrial Airport (CEJ4), AB to Rocky Mountain House (CYRM), AB and back to CEJ4. On board
were two private licensed pilots working towards their respective commercial pilot licenses. The
flight departed CEJ4 with approximately 29 US gallons of fuel on board as indicated by the fuel
gauges. The return leg of the flight was planned from CYRM direct to CEJ4 but was required by
ATS to stay east of Calgary International (CYYC), AB airspace, which added approximately 82 NM
to the flight. When the flight was near Okotoks (CFX2), AB the pilot flying realized that the fuel
quantity may not be sufficient to make CEJ4. The pilot descended the aircraft to 5500 feet above
sea level and continued on to CEJ4. On short final to Runway 21 at CEJ4, the engine (Avco
Lycoming O-320-E2D) lost power. During the forced approach the aircraft entered an aerodynamic
stall and impacted the ground 400 feet short of the runway. The aircraft subsequently nosed over.
The two pilots received minor injuries and the aircraft was severely damaged. The aircraft had
been operating for 4.16 flight hours at the time of the engine power loss.
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Last edited by pelmet on Mon Nov 28, 2022 9:26 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Ran out of Gas Thread

Post by piperdriver »

pelmet wrote: Thu Nov 03, 2022 9:46 pm C-GUIM, a Canadian Flight Instructor Inc. Cessna 172M, was on a VFR flight from Claresholm
Industrial Airport (CEJ4), AB to Rocky Mountain House (CYRM), AB and back to CEJ4. On board
were two private licensed pilots working towards their respective commercial pilot licenses. The
flight departed CEJ4 with approximately 29 US gallons of fuel on board as indicated by the fuel
gauges. The return leg of the flight was planned from CYRM direct to CEJ4 but was required by
ATS to stay east of Calgary International (CYYC), AB airspace, which added approximately 82 NM
to the flight. When the flight was near Okotoks (CFX2), AB the pilot flying realized that the fuel
quantity may not be sufficient to make CEJ4. The pilot descended the aircraft to 5500 feet above
sea level and continued on to CEJ4. On short final to Runway 21 at CEJ4, the engine (Avco
Lycoming O-320-E2D) lost power. During the forced approach the aircraft entered an aerodynamic
stall and impacted the ground 400 feet short of the runway. The aircraft subsequently nosed over.
The two pilots received minor injuries and the aircraft was severely damaged. The aircraft had
been operating for 4.16 flight hours at the time of the engine power loss.
Who in their right mind thinks it's a good idea to do a four flight with 29 gallons of gas. This should be common sense even to a PPL student.
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Last edited by piperdriver on Mon Nov 07, 2022 5:34 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Ran out of Gas Thread

Post by digits_ »

piperdriver wrote: Mon Nov 07, 2022 9:12 am
pelmet wrote: Thu Nov 03, 2022 9:46 pm C-GUIM, a Canadian Flight Instructor Inc. Cessna 172M, was on a VFR flight from Claresholm
Industrial Airport (CEJ4), AB to Rocky Mountain House (CYRM), AB and back to CEJ4. On board
were two private licensed pilots working towards their respective commercial pilot licenses. The
flight departed CEJ4 with approximately 29 US gallons of fuel on board as indicated by the fuel
gauges. The return leg of the flight was planned from CYRM direct to CEJ4 but was required by
ATS to stay east of Calgary International (CYYC), AB airspace, which added approximately 82 NM
to the flight. When the flight was near Okotoks (CFX2), AB the pilot flying realized that the fuel
quantity may not be sufficient to make CEJ4. The pilot descended the aircraft to 5500 feet above
sea level and continued on to CEJ4. On short final to Runway 21 at CEJ4, the engine (Avco
Lycoming O-320-E2D) lost power. During the forced approach the aircraft entered an aerodynamic
stall and impacted the ground 400 feet short of the runway. The aircraft subsequently nosed over.
The two pilots received minor injuries and the aircraft was severely damaged. The aircraft had
been operating for 4.16 flight hours at the time of the engine power loss.
Who in their right mind thinks it's a good idea to go for 4 four flight with 29 gallons of gas. This should be common sense even to a PPL student.
Must have been the only 172 in existence with an accurate fuel gauge, and they still crash it :cry:
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Re: Ran out of Gas Thread

Post by pelmet »

C-GFBE, a Parachutisme Adrénaline Inc. Cessna P206 was conducting sky diving operations from
the Innisfail (CEM4), AB, aerodrome. Shortly after departure the aircraft engine began to run
rough. The pilot switched fuel tanks and the engine (Continental IO-520-A) ran without issue and
the pilot continued the climb to 12 500 feet ASL to let the sky divers out. After the first 2 skydivers
jumped, the engine failed. The pilot got the remaining skydivers to jump out. The aircraft was set
up for best glide and the pilot attempted to restart the engine multiple times without success.
Several times during the forced approach the engine restarted on its own, but only for a short time.
On short final to Runway 34 the engine started without input from the pilot and again it failed. The
engine was secured and the flight path was corrected from the unanticipated engine restart. The
pilot then lined up for a farmer's field 1/4 mile south of the runway as there was a risk of not
clearing the trees on approach to Runway 34. The aircraft landed in the field. The pilot was not
injured nor was the aircraft damaged.
Following the flight, the aircraft was towed back to the ramp at CEM4. The maintenance team
inspected the aircraft and performed several ground runs without issue.


Reminds me of the time I got airborne with skydivers for a high load and then became unsure if I had enough gas. Guages didn't work(it is a jump plane after all). I kept going through my head as to whether I had enough fuel versus the flights I had done(poor documentation on my part plus some doubt). Meanwhile I had the top guy on board as one of the jumpers. Sure wished I had used the dipstick prior to this flight...or did I? Hot day today. Finally, I bit the bullet and told them to leave at a much lower altitude. Turned out I did have enough gas for another low load. Was just a busy day. Still, I was suspended for a month to think things over as I should have let them know earlier of the issue - plus I ruined their plans. Then again, I showed up the following week to say Hi and was flying again as they needed a pilot. Good old days.
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Re: Ran out of Gas Thread

Post by pelmet »

From TSB via Google Translate......

CF-CEZ, a privately registered American Aviation AA-5 aircraft, was on a flight
under visual flight rules, from Ottawa/Gatineau Airport, Gatineau, QC (CYND) to destination
from the disused Lake Nilgaut airfield located approximately 97 Nm northwest of CYND, with
on board the pilot and a passenger. On the return flight to CYND, descending to 4500 ft, the
pilot declared an emergency, following fuel starvation, and made a landing in a
fields about 20NM NW of CYND. The aircraft sustained substantial damage
but the occupants were not injured.


https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/ottawa/s ... -1.6929302
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Re: Ran out of Gas Thread

Post by BBALFE »

I own a Wilga PZL 104 M 2000 C-GELX based out of Courtenay Airpark. On Floats. I have to fill up both tanks before each flight as gauges and senders are very inaccurate. I have a JPI Fuel computer but fine it difficult to read due to location and not very user friendly. Hoping to replace fuel computer soon.
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Re: Ran out of Gas Thread

Post by pelmet »

We had a similar assumption thing once on a turboprop in my company. The crew departed home base without enough fuel in one main tank but the guage showing the proper level. At the outstation, the guage started working properly and showed not enough fuel in it. The crew assumed that the guage had been working properly and then became faulty when in fact it had been faulty and became accurate. A low fuel light on the way back to destination confirmed that the guage was now accurate. No dipping/dripping done as it was a remote station and apparently it is not easy to do on that type.

That is the question to ask yourself when a fuel guage suddenly starts giving a different indication....was it faulty before and back to normal or was it normal before and faulty now.


Test Pilot School aircraft..........

"C-FIYQ, a Cessna 414 owned and operated by ITPS Canada Ltd., was conducting a flight from
Montréal-Mirabel International Airport (CYMX), Quebec, to London International Airport (CYXU),
Ontario, with one pilot and one passenger on board. The aircraft had been recently purchased by
ITPS Canada Ltd.; the purpose of this flight was to bring the aircraft to its new home base at
CYXU. During cruise flight at 3000 feet ASL, and approximately 8nm NNE of CYXU, both engines
stopped producing power. The pilot made a forced landing in a bean field, there were no injuries
and no damage observed to the aircraft.
Before leaving CYMX, the pilot had requested that the fuel tanks be filled, and records indicate that
46 gallons of fuel had been added to the fuel tanks by a fueler who was familiar with this particular
aircraft, although the pilot had not checked the quantity before fueling took place. The pilot did not
physically check the fuel levels before departure, and although the fuel gauges showed less than
full tanks, the pilot proceeded under the assumption that they were displaying an incorrect quantity.

Initial examination of the aircraft revealed no damage, and the aircraft was brought via ground
transportation to a hangar at CYXU, where the maintenance is conducting a detailed check of the
aircraft.
The safety officer for the company has initiated an SMS investigation into this event."


From TSB
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Last edited by pelmet on Wed Aug 16, 2023 9:10 am, edited 2 times in total.
pelmet
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Re: Ran out of Gas Thread

Post by pelmet »

From TSB......

C-GRCA, a Cessna 152 operated by AFS Aerial Photography, was conducting a photo flight west
of Lethbridge, Alberta (CYQL). After approximately 5 hours of flight time, the engine (AVCO
LYCOMING, O-235-L2C) began to lose power and the aircraft started to descend. The pilot
adjusted the throttle and mixture, applied carburetor heat but was unable to restore engine power.
A forced approach and landing was performed on a gravel road approximately 26 nm WNW of
CYQL. During the landing roll, the right outer wing made contact with a road sign post and
significantly damaged the leading edge.
Post occurrence, the aircraft was defueled for transport and revealed only unusable fuel in both the
left- and right-wing fuel tanks
.
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Re: Ran out of Gas/Fuel Mismanagement Thread

Post by pelmet »

Been a while since I flew a V-tail Bonanza and am trying to remember where the fuel selector is located.

On 10 August 2023, the privately registered Beechcraft Bonanza A35 (C-FKVI) was enroute from
the Indus/Winters Aire Park Airport (CFY4), Alberta to the High River Airport (CEN4), Alberta for an
annual maintenance inspection. Onboard was the pilot-in-command (PIC) and a second pilot.
While on the downwind leg of the circuit at CEN4, the PIC initiated the pre-landing check, which
was carried out by the second pilot seated in the right front seat. During the pre-landing check, the
second pilot attempted to verify fuel selector position by feel since it was not visible due to the
forward position of the PIC's seat. The second pilot inadvertently selected the fuel selector position
to the OFF position. A few moments later, as the aircraft was turning final, at low altitude, the
engine lost power due to fuel starvation. At 1543 Mountain Daylight Time, the PIC executed a
forced landing in a farmer's field approximately 1 nautical mile east of CEN4. During the landing,
the aircraft struck a fence, and sustained substantial damage. Shortly after the forced landing,
police and emergency medical services attended the scene. Both occupants suffered minor injuries
and were transported to hospital by ground ambulance. The emergency locator transmitter
activated and a distress signal was detected by the search and rescue satellite system.

....From TSB.
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