Lets put some pressure on

Discuss topics relating to Encore.

Moderators: lilfssister, North Shore, sky's the limit, sepia, Sulako, I WAS Birddog

Apestogetherstrong
Rank 2
Rank 2
Posts: 71
Joined: Wed Jan 26, 2022 4:36 pm

Lets put some pressure on

Post by Apestogetherstrong »

Just mu opinion and not a suggestion. No more single engine taxi. Not until we see an immediate wage increase.. :smt040
---------- ADS -----------
 
User avatar
rooster
Rank 3
Rank 3
Posts: 198
Joined: Sat Mar 06, 2010 3:02 am
Location: The flatlands

Re: Lets put some pressure on

Post by rooster »

Apestogetherstrong wrote: Wed Sep 28, 2022 8:28 am Just mu opinion and not a suggestion. No more single engine taxi. Not until we see an immediate wage increase.. :smt040
Sadly, I doubt this will put too much of a dent in their actions with the group
---------- ADS -----------
 
Ex DC10 Driver
Rank 2
Rank 2
Posts: 64
Joined: Sun Sep 07, 2014 4:58 am

Re: Lets put some pressure on

Post by Ex DC10 Driver »

Why do you think you are entitled to an immediate pay increase?
---------- ADS -----------
 
Apestogetherstrong
Rank 2
Rank 2
Posts: 71
Joined: Wed Jan 26, 2022 4:36 pm

Re: Lets put some pressure on

Post by Apestogetherstrong »

Ex DC10 Driver wrote: Fri Sep 30, 2022 3:17 pm Why do you think you are entitled to an immediate pay increase?
Read all the westjet encore forums to get the answer you seek. Besides now there are much better options in the market for Encore pilots. So unless management wants to retain pilots, I kid you not, by April 2023 Encore will lose at least 290 pilots. AC plans to induct at least 150 from Encore. Flair plans to take 70. Lynx will take 30 upon deliveries. Transat will take 40. Sunwing 10. Dont ask me how I know these numbers but that will happen. :smt040
---------- ADS -----------
 
Nashbandicoot
Rank 0
Rank 0
Posts: 7
Joined: Fri Sep 07, 2018 9:53 am

Re: Lets put some pressure on

Post by Nashbandicoot »

You could just leave?
---------- ADS -----------
 
FlyAlberta
Rank 1
Rank 1
Posts: 25
Joined: Mon Dec 24, 2018 9:28 am

Re: Lets put some pressure on

Post by FlyAlberta »

To further DC10’s comment, what makes you thinks that intentionally wasting money, purely out of spite (when you have no legal grounds to job action as a unionized work force), would make any employer want to give you a pay raise. In my experience, the idiot that does that gets fired. The ones that do the job to the best of their ability get the raise. Not saying that you need to be a company brown noser, but don’t bring the rest of us down with you. There’s a time and place for strategic job action.


The best bit of advice here just came from Nashbandicoot.

There’s lots of volunteer opportunities and roles open within your ALPA group right now if you wish to be a change maker.
---------- ADS -----------
 
digits_
Rank 11
Rank 11
Posts: 4836
Joined: Mon Feb 14, 2011 2:26 am

Re: Lets put some pressure on

Post by digits_ »

FlyAlberta wrote: Fri Sep 30, 2022 6:46 pm The ones that do the job to the best of their ability get the raise.
And how does that work in a unionized environment with fixed pay scales?
---------- ADS -----------
 
As an AvCanada discussion grows longer:
-the probability of 'entitlement' being mentioned, approaches 1
-one will be accused of using bad airmanship
Apestogetherstrong
Rank 2
Rank 2
Posts: 71
Joined: Wed Jan 26, 2022 4:36 pm

Re: Lets put some pressure on

Post by Apestogetherstrong »

FlyAlberta wrote: Fri Sep 30, 2022 6:46 pm To further DC10’s comment, what makes you thinks that intentionally wasting money, purely out of spite (when you have no legal grounds to job action as a unionized work force), would make any employer want to give you a pay raise. In my experience, the idiot that does that gets fired. The ones that do the job to the best of their ability get the raise. Not saying that you need to be a company brown noser, but don’t bring the rest of us down with you. There’s a time and place for strategic job action.


The best bit of advice here just came from Nashbandicoot.

There’s lots of volunteer opportunities and roles open within your ALPA group right now if you wish to be a change maker.
No disrespect but ALPA at Encore has gotten no gains for us. I know the MEC is a great guy and some team members are doing their job. They do a great job in telling us that the company is not responding to us and the company should do this and that blah blah blah.

To this day we have gotten 0 gains for us. So their inaction is making me rant here about single engine taxis. Frankly speaking 90% of the pilots are not doing single engine taxis anyway. If you disagree check the data. :smt040
---------- ADS -----------
 
goingmissed
Rank 4
Rank 4
Posts: 292
Joined: Wed Mar 23, 2022 10:06 am

Re: Lets put some pressure on

Post by goingmissed »

Apestogetherstrong wrote: Fri Sep 30, 2022 9:41 pm To this day we have gotten 0 gains for us. So their inaction is making me rant here about single engine taxis. Frankly speaking 90% of the pilots are not doing single engine taxis anyway. If you disagree check the data. :smt040
Take a look at the island... Porter does single engine taxi out and in at CYTZ. That is an indicator of either a happy pilot group or strong and strict management.
---------- ADS -----------
 
digits_
Rank 11
Rank 11
Posts: 4836
Joined: Mon Feb 14, 2011 2:26 am

Re: Lets put some pressure on

Post by digits_ »

Or you could single engine taxi at higher power and ride the brakes. Everybody happy :twisted:
---------- ADS -----------
 
As an AvCanada discussion grows longer:
-the probability of 'entitlement' being mentioned, approaches 1
-one will be accused of using bad airmanship
photofly
Top Poster
Top Poster
Posts: 10856
Joined: Tue Jan 18, 2011 4:47 pm
Location: Hangry and crankypated

Re: Lets put some pressure on

Post by photofly »

goingmissed wrote: Sat Oct 01, 2022 10:30 pm
Apestogetherstrong wrote: Fri Sep 30, 2022 9:41 pm To this day we have gotten 0 gains for us. So their inaction is making me rant here about single engine taxis. Frankly speaking 90% of the pilots are not doing single engine taxis anyway. If you disagree check the data. :smt040
Take a look at the island... Porter does single engine taxi out and in at CYTZ. That is an indicator of either a happy pilot group or strong and strict management.
Can somebody fill the rest of us in about the significance of single engine taxi operations?
---------- ADS -----------
 
DId you hear the one about the jurisprudence fetishist? He got off on a technicality.
Ex DC10 Driver
Rank 2
Rank 2
Posts: 64
Joined: Sun Sep 07, 2014 4:58 am

Re: Lets put some pressure on

Post by Ex DC10 Driver »

Some of the responses on here are pathetic. You are not in contract negotiations at this time you are just unhappy with your pay🤔. Join the others you mentioned and leave. The company will eventually see that they are under paying by the lack of applications in this hiring market and your brothers and sisters who leave for other pastures. But to try and drive your employers costs up by not rolling SOP’s or riding the brakes ATC is criminal. Don’t like your contract and u don’t want to leave then bargain better next time around.
---------- ADS -----------
 
Canadaflyer46
Rank 3
Rank 3
Posts: 127
Joined: Sun Aug 01, 2021 4:27 pm

Re: Lets put some pressure on

Post by Canadaflyer46 »

Honestly the company is well aware of morale at Encore and WJ. Whether you taxi on 1 engine or 2 that won’t change anything. I’d personally be surprised if Encore is still around in a few years. Their current model isn’t sustainable. Virtually all management pilots have/are moving to WJ now that the PTA is gone. The company hasn’t even responded to that whole debacle yet. Or even acknowledged it. Get out as soon as you can would be a better solution than using up extra fuel.
Having said that, please feel free to run the APU at all times on the ground 🤣. The airflow in the cabin is always appreciated.
---------- ADS -----------
 
goingmissed
Rank 4
Rank 4
Posts: 292
Joined: Wed Mar 23, 2022 10:06 am

Re: Lets put some pressure on

Post by goingmissed »

photofly wrote: Sun Oct 02, 2022 6:55 am Can somebody fill the rest of us in about the significance of single engine taxi operations?
The Q400 burns around 400 lbs per hour per side. Toronto taxi to and from the runway is around 15 minutes on average.

In a single Montreal turn, single engine taxi out and in could save up to 100 lbs of fuel (~$50).

Now multiply that across hundreds of flights per day and 365 days per year.
---------- ADS -----------
 
Apestogetherstrong
Rank 2
Rank 2
Posts: 71
Joined: Wed Jan 26, 2022 4:36 pm

Re: Lets put some pressure on

Post by Apestogetherstrong »

Ex DC10 Driver wrote: Sun Oct 02, 2022 7:04 am Some of the responses on here are pathetic. You are not in contract negotiations at this time you are just unhappy with your pay🤔. Join the others you mentioned and leave. The company will eventually see that they are under paying by the lack of applications in this hiring market and your brothers and sisters who leave for other pastures. But to try and drive your employers costs up by not rolling SOP’s or riding the brakes ATC is criminal. Don’t like your contract and u don’t want to leave then bargain better next time around.
So you think that we should just shut up and start leaving? Is that your solution? Are you one of the guys who doesn’t start the APU fly bleeds min when it’s hot? You sure sound like a company guy. Look at the pays south of the border. The reason why they are doing so well is because pilots are united. Nobody is ready to accept shit wages. Yet you come here defending the company and talk about our contract.
---------- ADS -----------
 
JBI
Rank 8
Rank 8
Posts: 960
Joined: Wed Feb 18, 2004 11:21 am
Location: YYC / LGA

Re: Lets put some pressure on

Post by JBI »

For what it's worth, I did not single engine taxi for pretty much my last 12 months at Encore. That wasn't to spite the company, it was to provide a good comfortable environment to MY passengers. Even at the best of times being a passenger in a Q isn't the most comfortable experience and I always found the cabin got really hot when doing single engine taxi, even if it wasn't that hot outside. Especially this summer, for most passengers, flying was a miserable experience. Masks on all the time, massive delays, new and untrained staff everywhere from the CATSA screeners to the folks working at Timmy's. The CSAs were new, the Ground Crew, when actually around was new and it seems ATS sold all their GPUs and Air carts. I can't count the number of times I had to make the "Hi folks, we're just short of the gate waiting for ground crew to marshall us in..." announcement. And let's not forget that not just on Encore but on almost all airlines these days, most people are paying hundreds if not thousands of dollars for this experience. Literally the LEAST we can do is keep the temperature comfortable.

That was my OWN PERSONAL DECISION as a Captain to do what was the most comfortable for my passengers and this is permitted in the FOM.

I don't care if you like ALPA or not, but you need to give your head a shake if you think being unionized has made "zero gains". Especially looking at the implementation of RIGS, most Encore pilots are literally making thousands of dollars more each year for less flying. ALPA's been able to get pilots who were wrongly terminated their job back, they've negotiated multiple MOAs during COVID, and have won multiple arbitrations on behalf of the pilots. Suggesting that there's been "zero gains" on a public forum merely displays your lack of drive to understand the history of company/pilot relations than the actual progress that ALPA has made.

Nonetheless, regardless of if it were ALPA, another union or a non-unionized group, what you are suggesting is illegal job action. That's something that ALPA can't propose at the moment.This is NOT because ALPA is scared of the company. If ALPA were to suggest that pilots take illegal job action, not only could it result in the union being fined (and your dues going directly to the company) but, more importantly, individual pilots could received discipline and/or face termination. Guess what most airlines ask at job interviews? Have you ever been terminated from a job? If so, why? Think you'll get hired at AC if you say "Yup, I was fired from a major airline because I was involved in illegal job action"

All that being said, stomping your feet and holding your breath saying "No more single engine taxi" looks foolish and would not be an effective way to actually get the Company to decide to do something about increasing wages. There are only two ways for things to improve - the company can no longer staff it's flights because people have left (and we're not even close to reaching that point - and, despite what you claim, this is the ONLY reason why we're seeing such major gains at the US Regionals, they simply cannot staff their flights) or, when the contract is open for negotiations NEXT YEAR all the pilots support their union and be willing to take LEGAL job action if the negotiations are not successful. And for what it's worth, most of the regionals in the US that have seen the most gains are represented by ALPA and getting advice from the same economic and legal advisors that Encore's MEC is.
---------- ADS -----------
 
goingmissed
Rank 4
Rank 4
Posts: 292
Joined: Wed Mar 23, 2022 10:06 am

Re: Lets put some pressure on

Post by goingmissed »

JBI wrote: Mon Oct 03, 2022 12:31 pm For what it's worth, I did not single engine taxi for pretty much my last 12 months at Encore. That wasn't to spite the company, it was to provide a good comfortable environment to MY passengers. Even at the best of times being a passenger in a Q isn't the most comfortable experience and I always found the cabin got really hot when doing single engine taxi, even if it wasn't that hot outside. Especially this summer, for most passengers, flying was a miserable experience. Masks on all the time, massive delays, new and untrained staff everywhere from the CATSA screeners to the folks working at Timmy's. The CSAs were new, the Ground Crew, when actually around was new and it seems ATS sold all their GPUs and Air carts. I can't count the number of times I had to make the "Hi folks, we're just short of the gate waiting for ground crew to marshall us in..." announcement. And let's not forget that not just on Encore but on almost all airlines these days, most people are paying hundreds if not thousands of dollars for this experience. Literally the LEAST we can do is keep the temperature comfortable.

That was my OWN PERSONAL DECISION as a Captain to do what was the most comfortable for my passengers and this is permitted in the FOM.

I don't care if you like ALPA or not, but you need to give your head a shake if you think being unionized has made "zero gains". Especially looking at the implementation of RIGS, most Encore pilots are literally making thousands of dollars more each year for less flying. ALPA's been able to get pilots who were wrongly terminated their job back, they've negotiated multiple MOAs during COVID, and have won multiple arbitrations on behalf of the pilots. Suggesting that there's been "zero gains" on a public forum merely displays your lack of drive to understand the history of company/pilot relations than the actual progress that ALPA has made.

Nonetheless, regardless of if it were ALPA, another union or a non-unionized group, what you are suggesting is illegal job action. That's something that ALPA can't propose at the moment.This is NOT because ALPA is scared of the company. If ALPA were to suggest that pilots take illegal job action, not only could it result in the union being fined (and your dues going directly to the company) but, more importantly, individual pilots could received discipline and/or face termination. Guess what most airlines ask at job interviews? Have you ever been terminated from a job? If so, why? Think you'll get hired at AC if you say "Yup, I was fired from a major airline because I was involved in illegal job action"

All that being said, stomping your feet and holding your breath saying "No more single engine taxi" looks foolish and would not be an effective way to actually get the Company to decide to do something about increasing wages. There are only two ways for things to improve - the company can no longer staff it's flights because people have left (and we're not even close to reaching that point - and, despite what you claim, this is the ONLY reason why we're seeing such major gains at the US Regionals, they simply cannot staff their flights) or, when the contract is open for negotiations NEXT YEAR all the pilots support their union and be willing to take LEGAL job action if the negotiations are not successful. And for what it's worth, most of the regionals in the US that have seen the most gains are represented by ALPA and getting advice from the same economic and legal advisors that Encore's MEC is.
Well said, point after point. Hopefully others will listen to you.
---------- ADS -----------
 
Ex DC10 Driver
Rank 2
Rank 2
Posts: 64
Joined: Sun Sep 07, 2014 4:58 am

Re: Lets put some pressure on

Post by Ex DC10 Driver »

JBI said it perfectly. For the record I am a 9th year F/O at WestJet who bumped down to Encore last year as a Captain and was trained on the Q and flew for 8 months there. Was I happy bumping down and going to first year wages…no. However, I followed company SOP, flew the best that I could and tried to be as efficient and safe as possible but was always mindful of my passengers comfort. Be a big boy, pull up your pants and do your JOB that you were hired for. My career has had more downs than ups, that’s the breaks. In the end be a professional, do your best, learn, and support your union and company. Without a company you are out of work, as I have worked for 2 failed airlines and been laid off 3 times.
---------- ADS -----------
 
goingmissed
Rank 4
Rank 4
Posts: 292
Joined: Wed Mar 23, 2022 10:06 am

Re: Lets put some pressure on

Post by goingmissed »

If you want to put pressure on management, start contacting them. They cannot claim that they do not know if they are constantly being reminded about the issues.

From the top (message all!):
CEO (AVH)
COO/EVP (DP)
VP Flight Ops (JA)
Chief Pilot (JV, TB)
LOM (CM, AG)

Explain how you feel, what you're seeing, and what you need the company to do to improve. Be clear and don't be an ass.

There are some pilots who are already emailing management, but the more pilots that express their views, the more effect it has.
---------- ADS -----------
 
co-joe
Rank 11
Rank 11
Posts: 4179
Joined: Mon Feb 16, 2004 2:33 am
Location: YYC 230 degree radial at about 10 DME

Re: Lets put some pressure on

Post by co-joe »

goingmissed wrote: Tue Oct 04, 2022 9:41 am If you want to put pressure on management, start contacting them. They cannot claim that they do not know if they are constantly being reminded about the issues.

...
That sounds risky and could be counter productive, piss off someone in management and it could bite you in the butt. A united front is what's needed. Things like work to rule, not taking any OT, taking the max allowed sick days, and not going the extra mile to save money on gas definitely do get noticed by bean counters. Obviously still put safety first though.
---------- ADS -----------
 
Post Reply

Return to “WestJet Encore”