ACPA LOA?

[landshark]

DBM’s don’t expire in 12 months nor do the training extensions; they will be locked in our contract. The only thing to expire in 12 months is the Wet Lease which can be extended with ACPA approval. The only other expiry is the Jazz flow program in 2025.

[sportingrifle]

I thought they did. Will have to wait for actual language.
Justin Trudeau and my ex wife will be sooo pleased!

[altiplano]

How fucking dumb are we.

More permanent concessions for a temporary gain.

There is no risk in voting this down.

There is risk in voting yes.

Only fucking pussies take the first deal. It's time to man up bitches.

[kiaszceski]

How fucking dumb are we.

More permanent concessions for a temporary gain.

There is no risk in voting this down.

There is risk in voting yes.

Only fucking pussies take the first deal. It's time to man up bitches.

Altiplano seems furious...

[landshark]

Vote will hopefully be NO.

October's bid will be as if we voted YES and reflect those positions for next summer.

Negotiations will take place after bid close for less concessions.

November's bid will be delayed until December in hopes of a YES vote after a rectified MOA presented.

If passed probably no bid in December, if not Decembers bid will be a regig and some positions may be reduced.

If YES vote

IMHO

[PostmasterGeneral]

Please explain the permanent concessions.

Seriously Barry?

SCOPE
Training Language
DBM Lets
Tentative Displacement

and the biggest permanent give: historic leverage we will likely never see again, squandered on peanuts

Yesmassapayson

Firstly, I know Barry but I am not Barry. Wrong guy.

SCOPE. 55 seat jets and 80 seat turboprops have absolutely no impact on any AC pilot. It is not ACPA’s job to protect Jazz jobs.
Training Language. Improves training pilot pay and allows larger blocks during training only at a pilots discretion. Expires in 12 months.
Cargo wet lease. Expires in 12 months.
DBM’s..expires in 12 months.
Tentative displacement…a win for pilots who now will be released from flights 24 hours in advance instead of 3:15 in advance. Huge benefit for commuters. Not sure but I think unfortunately this will also end in 12 months.

As far as squandering leverage goes - total non issue. The planned hiring requirements are making the pilot shortage an even bigger issue going forward. Much more than currently so. This MOA is about training who we plan to hire in the next 6 months.
I just confirmed with ACPA rep that my math on new hire wages is correct.

You really need to get off the keyboard and watch the webinar or read some of the info. You are demonstrating that you really have little understanding of the MOA.

You should take your own advice and watch the webinar. It was mentioned twice that the scope, training “flexibility” and the DBMs were permanent concessions in the contract. Nothing temporary about them.

[sportingrifle]

Ok thanks, I missed the DBM’s.
But scope doesn’t affect us and training is at pilots discretion. Abolition of 2 years of flat pay (Honestly, we all know it will end anyway, just not quite so soon), full pay for any future cargo aircraft(This is a big deal, there are going to be a lot of them, part of the reason for the planned large bids) and the pay uplift for instructors are all permanent.

[negative_g]

Only 777Fs. And only if they are integrated with the passenger fleet. Read the language in the MOA, it's very clear what it says. As soon as they have 4-5 777Fs and it makes sense to break it off to it's own bid position you can be guaranteed they'll be coming after that 10% through the arbitration avenue in the Cargo MOA. Cargo needs a day cap at 16 like our cargojet friends, and a minimum monthly guarantee. Cargo flying can be very unproductive the last thing we want is our cargo coworkers to be working 21+ days a month for 85 credit.

There's a lot of things wrong with this deal. The DBMs is a huge deal, that's 60+ WB jobs gone. Forever. That's you working more days per month in the summer, that's more unproductive flying and less open time, less draft etc.

[Ifly]

Ok thanks, I missed the DBM’s.
But scope doesn’t affect us

It's only 5 dashes on the island, what could possibly go wrong?

[bcflyer]

Ok thanks, I missed the DBM’s.
But scope doesn’t affect us and training is at pilots discretion. Abolition of 2 years of flat pay (Honestly, we all know it will end anyway, just not quite so soon), full pay for any future cargo aircraft(This is a big deal, there are going to be a lot of them, part of the reason for the planned large bids) and the pay uplift for instructors are all permanent.

Scope most definitely affects us. If they can outsource a bunch of regional flying away from Jazz to another carrier that fixes the pilot shortage at Jazz, which frees up pilots to come here, which solves the pilot issue here, which takes away the only leverage we have. Everyone loses. No reason to raise pay rates here or at Jazz. So yes scope most definitely affects us.

Full pay is only for the 777 and as mentioned above it will disappear as soon as the ink is dry on the agreement. (Otherwise why the extra language in the MOA?)

I haven’t heard anything about planned large bids you mention except for rumours. Can you show me where to look to see those details?
I highly doubt that AC will shelve expansion plans because we vote no. The shareholders wouldn’t like that much.

[altiplano]

Ok thanks, I missed the DBM’s.

Increased dbms alone are a loss of 400 jobs.


But scope doesn’t affect us and training is at pilots discretion.

SCOPE DOESN'T AFFECT US.
Are you fucking kidding? Scope is everything. What do you think these are? Routes to nowhere? Give me a fucking break!


Abolition of 2 years of flat pay (Honestly, we all know it will end anyway, just not quite so soon),

Right, they need it, it's coming anyway, why pay for it.



full pay for any future cargo aircraft(This is a big deal, there are going to be a lot of them, part of the reason for the planned large bids)

That's absolutely not true. The deal is 90% pay unless grouped with a passenger aircraft. 777s will be leaving the passenger fleet soon! This is a let, previously the deal was we would negotiate rates.


and the pay uplift for instructors are all permanent.
Instructors? So what? 1% of the group who already scoop primo flying on make up and are guaranteed more than line pilots? Get their choice of days off and vacation? Like good for them if they don't fly the line. But... @#$! the instructors. Line pilots are the ones who deserve the better T&Cs.

[sportingrifle]

Bcflyer..I haven’t seen the bid and if I had, I couldn’t post about it.(I have heard the number and that is why I said a new hire could be a WB F/O or NB Capt. in less than 3 years.) be What I have seen is the contemplated training plan for the fleet I am on and without the MOA it simply isn’t going to happen.
Jazz pilots make little difference to the pilot supply problem. The problem is way bigger than Jazz.

Altiplano…Triples are certainly not leaving the fleet soon. We are actually looking for an additional simulator. Some of the most profitable routes that the company flies that can only be flown (profitably) by the “triple”. We have been told that point blank by both commercial and cargo.

[altiplano]

Bcflyer..I haven’t seen the bid and if I had, I couldn’t post about it.(I have heard the number and that is why I ssid a new hire could be a WB F/O or NB Capt. in less than 3 years.) be What I have seen is the contemplated training plan for the fleet I am on and without the MOA it simply isn’t going to happen.
Jazz pilots make little difference to the pilot supply problem. The problem is way bigger than Jazz.

Altiplano…Triples are certainly not leaving the fleet soon. We are actually looking for an additional simulator. Some of the most profitable routes that the company flies that can only be flown (profitably) by the “triple”. We have been told that point blank by both commercial and cargo.

Soon is perhaps relative, but they already got rid of one 777 during the pandemic and the 200s are next... I expect freighter conversions likely and either more 787s or a new WB, either 350 or 777X to replace the 777 pax operation.

Is that all you have to answer for all your incorrect assertions?

[sportingrifle]

Altiplano…
I think I will just leave it. Sorry about your anger, I was just trying to post some helpful information despite being one of your despised instructors.

None of this really affects me but I hope the angry mob don’t screw up things for my very junior friends and those that come behind them. Time will tell.

Anyway, gotta go. Time to “ scoop primo flying on make up and be guaranteed more than line pilots? Get my choice of days off and vacation.” Adios, Bon Chance.

[sportingrifle]

Murray Strom, VP of Flt. Ops just announced to a PIT class that the plan is to have 6000 pilots on the property by end of 2024. That is approx 1800 pilots to hire in 26 months, plus all the up training of existing pilots. This was also the number we were told when shown the training plan. Take it for whatever you want.

[negative_g]

Good luck hiring that many pilots with our pay and working conditions. No one wants to work 16-21 days a month with now increased DBM no matter how much money they throw at us.

The fact Murray is sharing this should be raising huge alarms with everyone, and maybe start understanding the massive leverage we have. COLA raises covering the last three years and flat pay to one year, 90k. That's my floor. Oh and YOS for all the pilots who were furloughed. Then we can talk.

[Freshredmeat]

SportingPistol,

You come across as a rich boomer that has spent his whole career voting Yes and selling out this profession and fellow brothers & sisters

If you think flying around in your personal floatplane and passing on management drivel is inspiring the next generation, I can assure you it's doing the opposite

Us noobs expect more, demand more, and will get more by simply saying "hell no"

[sportingrifle]

Does that include walking two picket lines that created some of the working conditions you currently enjoy?

[crashpadcommute]

Does that include walking two picket lines that created some of the working conditions you currently enjoy?

It means not supporting Reps that clearly don't represent the wishes of the membership anymore

Your support of the YVR Base Chairs that love concessionary deals is a key part of the problem

We have leaders in the room deciding the fate of the membership that have zero reflection on the damage that they have already been done

If you could get past management propoganda, you would see this is an easy "NO"

[QKZXKV]

None of this really affects me but I hope the angry mob don’t screw up things for my very junior friends and those that come behind them. Time will tell.

Ok then leave, stop biasing the newer members with nonsense. As soon as someone admits it doesn't affect them, they don't really think through things properly. Their heart really isn't in it...

I would be willing to bet your boat or 2nd house on the fact that if it did affect you, you would be more vocal like we are. Lucky for you it doesn't and we will never know despite your best efforts to convince us you'd still be in favour of this turd.