Easiest "No" Vote to Come to this pilot group to date

[Montroyal]

This vote is a complete and utter epic fail from everyone involved.

Shows how disconnected the company & our own association is

Totally disrespectful that they thought this deal was appropriate with inflation at 7%

Our Chair talked about the morality of flat pay

Maybe he shouldn't have voted yes to it in 2014 and be a lap dog to company problems and extracting permanent concessions from the group he is supposed to be representing

[negative_g]

Anyone that says "we're not in open negotiations, there was no way we were getting big raises across the board" doesn't understand how leverage works. When the company comes to you with a big problem (and this is a big problem) you use that to extract lopsided gains in your favour. At minimum we should see flat pay reduced to one year of probationary pay (80-90k) and then formula pay, followed with a cost of living adjustment for the last three years across the board. And forget adding more allowable hours to the WB operation per pilot, that's just going to mean more days worked for our WB pilots. And less open time, and essentially less positions.

[Dias]

Anyone that says "we're not in open negotiations, there was no way we were getting big raises across the board" doesn't understand how leverage works. When the company comes to you with a big problem (and this is a big problem) you use that to extract lopsided gains in your favour. At minimum we should see flat pay reduced to one year of probationary pay (80-90k) and then formula pay, followed with a cost of living adjustment for the last three years across the board. And forget adding more allowable hours to the WB operation per pilot, that's just going to mean more days worked for our WB pilots. And less open time, and essentially less positions.

No to 1 year flat pay even. The company wants new hires that can go straight to WB FO from places like Cathay. They need to pay them WB FO salaries from day 1.

[negative_g]

Anyone that says "we're not in open negotiations, there was no way we were getting big raises across the board" doesn't understand how leverage works. When the company comes to you with a big problem (and this is a big problem) you use that to extract lopsided gains in your favour. At minimum we should see flat pay reduced to one year of probationary pay (80-90k) and then formula pay, followed with a cost of living adjustment for the last three years across the board. And forget adding more allowable hours to the WB operation per pilot, that's just going to mean more days worked for our WB pilots. And less open time, and essentially less positions.

No to 1 year flat pay even. The company wants new hires that can go straight to WB FO from places like Cathay. They need to pay them WB FO salaries from day 1.

Well to be fair if formula started on year 2, there wouldn't be new hire WB FOs. But yes I agree with you in principle. If anything a probationary pay, which starts the day you get hired (not your line check) and lasts 6 months in agreement with federal regulations. It might even be 3 months now, not sure I'll have to go look it up. But our current probation is a joke, one year after you line check makes it closer to 15-16 months of probation.

[pitottubey]

Can someone please explain the context of this?

[Rooster69]

Anyone that says "we're not in open negotiations, there was no way we were getting big raises across the board" doesn't understand how leverage works. When the company comes to you with a big problem (and this is a big problem) you use that to extract lopsided gains in your favour. At minimum we should see flat pay reduced to one year of probationary pay (80-90k) and then formula pay, followed with a cost of living adjustment for the last three years across the board. And forget adding more allowable hours to the WB operation per pilot, that's just going to mean more days worked for our WB pilots. And less open time, and essentially less positions.

Agreed!

I don’t understand the underwhelming gains that were just negotiated. The company can’t honour the 60% flow through. The company needs to wet lease cargo aircraft. Cargo wet leasing is covered in contract. Company is going to have to pay no matter what. The company needs more pilots. A lot more pilots. Yes, the company is getting resumes, but there are no shows for ground schools and higher experienced pilots with families can’t afford 4 years of shit pay. And it is shit pay. The company needs lets from the association in order to be able to train enough pilots for the summer of 23 scheduled.

It feels like a person who went to a car dealership, negotiated in some car mats and oil changes. Stuff the dealership was going to through in anyway.

[PostmasterGeneral]

Can someone please explain the context of this?

If you know, you know. If you don't, it doesn't affect you anyways.

[negative_g]

Look at the scope in the black lined agreement.

Sneaking something in there that's HUGE. Domestic codeshare with zero restrictions. This is a huge mess.

[a2btrail]

Please. Just say no. Please see the safety briefing below:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L-0OeOFuNXs

[Ratherbe]

Sorry P4C it's an obvious yes vote. Waiting for negots 2023 or 2024 to get some movement in the right direction is very risky. Secure the gains now.
You guys are losing credibility. You haven't achieved anything but divide the membership and undermine the new negotiating committee.

[negative_g]

Keep telling yourself that. This is the most unified we've been in years. Look at Andres election result.

You're blind or just nieve if you don't see it.

[flying4dollars]

Sorry P4C it's an obvious yes vote. Waiting for negots 2023 or 2024 to get some movement in the right direction is very risky. Secure the gains now.
You guys are losing credibility. You haven't achieved anything but divide the membership and undermine the new negotiating committee.

I happen to think this is actually bringing most of the group together.

[Dry Guy]

Can they see the votes come in real time? Anyways, voted No as soon as it opened.

[bcflyer]

It’s run by an independent 3rd party. I don’t think they can see the results in real time.

[Ratherbe]

P4C has been very clear that they want to leave ACPA and join ALPA. That is what is motivating them and driving their decisions.
The AC pilots on the other hand have been very clear that they want pay raises not the distraction of a union drive.
Obviously this MOA would be bad news for P4C as it shows that ACPA with a new Chair and Negots Team can deliver results despite the presence of a war and a recession.
Do you guys really think that we will be in a stronger position next year?
Capture the gains now.

[bcflyer]

P4C has been very clear that they want to leave ACPA and join ALPA. That is what is motivating them and driving their decisions.
The AC pilots on the other hand have been very clear that they want pay raises not the distraction of a union drive.
Obviously this MOA would be bad news for P4C as it shows that ACPA with a new Chair and Negots Team can deliver results despite the presence of a war and a recession.
Do you guys really think that we will be in a stronger position next year?
Capture the gains now.

Lmao. Capture the gains now? I’m all for that. Unfortunately the negots committee weren’t able to do that with this MOA.

[schnitzel2k3]

P4C has been very clear that they want to leave ACPA and join ALPA. That is what is motivating them and driving their decisions.
The AC pilots on the other hand have been very clear that they want pay raises not the distraction of a union drive.
Obviously this MOA would be bad news for P4C as it shows that ACPA with a new Chair and Negots Team can deliver results despite the presence of a war and a recession.
Do you guys really think that we will be in a stronger position next year?
Capture the gains now.

Everybody and their grandmother has been able to put up gains during a war and a recession to the tune of 100%+ in most cases.

Hopefully you guys can too.

[teacher]

P4C has been very clear that they want to leave ACPA and join ALPA. That is what is motivating them and driving their decisions.
The AC pilots on the other hand have been very clear that they want pay raises not the distraction of a union drive.
Obviously this MOA would be bad news for P4C as it shows that ACPA with a new Chair and Negots Team can deliver results despite the presence of a war and a recession.
Do you guys really think that we will be in a stronger position next year?
Capture the gains now.

You mean capture the concessions now.

[Cavalier44]

P4C has been very clear that they want to leave ACPA and join ALPA. That is what is motivating them and driving their decisions.
The AC pilots on the other hand have been very clear that they want pay raises not the distraction of a union drive.

Have they? On the contrary, I think there is widespread support for a change in representation. In fact, I'd venture to say that many among us believe it's long overdue. A pay raise and a change of representation are not mutually exclusive - we have the capacity to achieve both.

Obviously this MOA would be bad news for P4C as it shows that ACPA with a new Chair and Negots Team can deliver results despite the presence of a war and a recession.

Comments about the war in Ukraine and potential recession are a red herring. But speaking about delivering results, what do you think about delivering an increase in DBM to 85 hours for widebody aircraft, with no cap on days worked, as a permanent concession in the contract? The company has difficulties filling PIT courses now, just wait til we tell all those new-hire 787 and 777 FOs that they're going to be doing seven Atlantic crossings a month for a whopping $62k/year! Where do I sign up?

Do you guys really think that we will be in a stronger position next year?
Capture the gains now.

Next year is irrelevant. The company needs this MOA in order to staff the operation to meet targets for Summer 2023. We don't have to make concessions now in a rush to make a hasty deal that we will regret later. There is no harm to the pilot group in waiting to see if there's a better offer, which I strongly suspect there will be. If not, we press on to the contract reopener in 2023. With the present vacancies, I'm willing to bet with a high degree of confidence that staffing the airline is still going to be the number one issue to be resolved next year.

Also - people saying "capture the gains now, deal with the consequences later" lost all credibility after the 10% pay cut for the 767 freighter operation. This attitude of constantly needing the help the company out is what got us into this mess in the first place.

[Freshredmeat]

Every single person I know in my flat pay seniority band are hard NOs

Judging by what I see on the line and my group chats, this pilot group has never been so unified

Well done everyone

The proof will be with the results and we finally toss some more dead weight.

Not sure what the deal is with the anti p4c rhetoric. This isn't their mess. This is on the Chair, the old guard and an acpa staff that doesn't even know what a pilot looks like

[Ratherbe]

"Not sure what the deal is with the anti p4c rhetoric. This isn't their mess. This is on the Chair, the old guard and an acpa staff that doesn't even know what a pilot looks like"

The backlash against the P4C it's likely because of the way their leaders have behaved and how ineffective they have been. Sooner or later they need to stop blaming everyone else and accept responsibility for their failure to deliver on their promises.

P4C supported the MEC Chair and got him elected. They cleaned house removing the "old guard" and inserted their own. Including the Negotiating Committee.

Now P4C has turned against the pilots they endorsed and supported. The P4C leaders, particularly the ones who got fired, look like incompetent buffoons - maybe that's why ACPA staff don't recognize them.

[lenaumade]

Hi,

I just copied this message from the other thread but it is the same subject.

First and foremost, I think we can all debate and respect each other choice to vote whatever we want, and respect that choice.

I really really hope I am wrong but...:

1) There is no competition with Air Canada concerning the pilots wages and conditions. Westjet do not pay enough, they don t have a pension funds etc...WJ pilots are coming to AC and not the opposite.
So our market is very different from the US since there is only one company. Not Four or Five majors trying to give the best deal to experiences pilots

2) Today, the stock market is at his lowest since 1930...yeah....And the mortgage rate are super high. Next year, there will be less people going to vacation since a lots of them will see their mortgage goint up by 4%. Which will be a disaster for many families. So maybe a decrease in demand for air travel.

3) if in a year there is less passenger then...the negocitation will be very different of what we think of it as of now. If the company got less buisness next year and we come to the table to negociate....They re gonna give us a shitty contract.

4) Maybe the company will come back with a counteroffer, you seem sure of it....but...maybe not.
There is nothing certain of that. I hope I am wrong also.

5) the union did this following the poll. The result and the main subject was to get rid of the flat pay. 2 years is still too long but see my point number 1 why they do not really care. the 2 years is big gain for all the guy on the flat pay. It is ajump in wages between 30 to 50%. But since a lot of you are out of the flat pay, you are looking at what's in it for you. So here's the so called pilot unity.
Most of thoses guy got furloughed and this increase in wages will count as the years of service lost during the 18 month of pandemic.
The new members are struggling not the 9 years Wide body FO or the new captain.
So if you vote yes you actually will help those guys.
if you vote no you will help your condition because you have nothing to lose saying no. The flatpayer will have another year on the flatpay until negociation.


4) We re all talking about pilot unity but most of the complaints are the guys on WB who will have to work 85dbm instead of 80 for pratically the same wages. Totally understandable. Then the argument is that we will save some pilot job. Valid argument but lets be honest here. That is not why you are not happy with this dbm. It is because you will lose 5 hours.

5) The wet lease is for 12 months only. So it is not like it s something permanent. And in 12 month if they want to continue that may be a good tool to negociate something else.

6) I hear a lot of "we are not negociationg for Jazz" here again is your "pilot unity". AC is hiring everybody except the jazz guy for the last 6 months. This LOa would allow them to get into the company and still meet the operationnal need at jazz. How come is it not a good idea? I m happy for the jazz guy. This will be our future colleague and they need to be treated well and differently than us when we arrived on property.

7) so here is how it will go : Flatpayer will vote yes in majority or 50/50 because they want to get out of the flat pay.
the 5-12 will vote no because they do not have any gain to do so
the Cargo guy will vote no because of the fear of the wet lease
the plus 12 years narrowbody will vote yes and the +12 years widebody will vote no
Here again is your pilot unity. Everybody is preaching for his own church

Negociation is next year. Maybe I am wrong but I doubt we will do a union change during this year. Changing union can be very long.

9) A strike is a leverage. and the only real one. That is the sad truth. But again, who will follow a movement like that?

[negative_g]

You're wrong on pretty much all points. But I respect your right to your opinion.

[lenaumade]

That is a strong argument...

[teacher]

When looking at an ACPA/AC MOA or TA one has to always think what does the company have planned?

The pilot group signed a 10 year deal with locked in raises of only 2% and than had the company achieve record flying and record profits.

AC had to get PERMANENT 10% less wages to make the cargo division profitable due to it’s risky nature and a year or so later they sign onto a courier service, purchase 777 freighters and need to sub contract cargo flying due to over whelming demand and profitability.

Don’t play checkers when the company is playing chess.