ACPA LOA?

[YesMassaPayson]

Firstly, I know Barry but I am not Barry. Wrong guy.

Fooled me, Barry. The hard sell really worked on you

SCOPE. 55 seat jets and 80 seat turboprops have absolutely no impact on any AC pilot. It is not ACPA’s job to protect Jazz jobs.

The scope let lowers the bar for the entire industry. This has a direct impact on us. Its called the race to the bottom. Our leverage is a top down system.

Training Language. Improves training pilot pay and allows larger blocks during training only at a pilots discretion.

AC Can improve training pilot pay any time they want. Its a them problem. Why do we care? Stroke of a pen.

Expires in 12 months.

Wrong. This concession is permanent.

Cargo wet lease. Expires in 12 months.

Wet lease language and credits already exist in our contract. Why would we agree to concessions to make this happen?

DBM’s..expires in 12 months.

No it doesn't. This is a permanent let.

Tentative displacement…a win for pilots who now will be released from flights 24 hours in advance instead of 3:15 in advance. Huge benefit for commuters. Not sure but I think unfortunately this will also end in 12 months.

The 24hrs means nothing when they will never tentatively displace you anymore. This allows them to move you without option to the 4th seat. Huge huge let. Oh, and its permanent. Where are you getting your info?

As far as squandering leverage goes - total non issue. The planned hiring requirements are making the pilot shortage an even bigger issue going forward. Much more than currently so. This MOA is about training who we plan to hire in the next 6 months.
I just confirmed with ACPA rep that my math on new hire wages is correct.

So you agree there is a pilot shortage and yet you are advocating for an agreement that solves this problem for AC....and yet you are trying to claim that this will become a bigger issue going forward? I feel like im talking to my aunt sylvia here

You really need to get off the keyboard and watch the webinar or read some of the info. You are demonstrating that you really have little understanding of the MOA.

The webinar solidified my No vote 100%.

You thought 3 of the major permanent concessions in this deal were temporary in nature....I think its you that needs to do some digging barry.

[rooster]

Altiplano…
I think I will just leave it. Sorry about your anger, I was just trying to post some helpful information despite being one of your despised instructors.

None of this really affects me but I hope the angry mob don’t screw up things for my very junior friends and those that come behind them. Time will tell.

Anyway, gotta go. Time to “ scoop primo flying on make up and be guaranteed more than line pilots? Get my choice of days off and vacation.” Adios, Bon Chance.

Vote yes and you will be screwing things up for them!! Wake up pal. You've been called out left right and center here and you keep on going. Time to bow out of this thread.

[Ratherbe]

How fucking dumb are we.

More permanent concessions for a temporary gain.

There is no risk in voting this down.

There is risk in voting yes.

Only fucking pussies take the first deal. It's time to man up bitches.

Altiplano,

I'm surprised at your remarks. Although I often disagree with you I haven't seen you degrade your posts to such a level that you are calling other pilots "pussies."

Just wondering if you are referring to felines or a part of the female anatomy? Bitches?

[FL030]

So the guy from the webinar that is doing his command course next week, he is one of our negotiators? There's so much on his plate right now. Why don't we have professional negotiators? The whole system seems weird to me.

[negative_g]

We do have professional negotiating don't you know? Jalmer Johnson!

[Core]

https://www.simplypsychology.org/compli ... urn%20down.

Psych 101 and Negot 101 are the same thing....

Pay attention guys... AKA WAKE UP GUYS!

[negative_g]

https://www.simplypsychology.org/compli ... urn%20down.

Psych 101 and Negot 101 are the same thing....

Pay attention guys... AKA WAKE UP GUYS!

Off topic but how did you do that with the link that then highlighted text you selected?

[schnitzel2k3]

See this is where a strong union would've given the middle finger to the management and been like, 'see you in 2023' rather than risking this garbage with a divided pilot group.

Canadian pilots are watching to see if the AC pilot group is able to make the right choice, not for just yourselves but the industry.

Happy hunting.

[altiplano]

Altiplano…
I think I will just leave it. Sorry about your anger, I was just trying to post some helpful information despite being one of your despised instructors.

None of this really affects me but I hope the angry mob don’t screw up things for my very junior friends and those that come behind them. Time will tell.

Anyway, gotta go. Time to “ scoop primo flying on make up and be guaranteed more than line pilots? Get my choice of days off and vacation.” Adios, Bon Chance.

Your "helpful information" is incorrect assertions promoting permanent concessions. Your shill for the management vote everytime something comes up.

Since you're off to scoop that primo flying you're obviously a pseudo management insider big deal. I get it, they make you feel that way, just like they do with our ACPA Reps... special "inside" information, a look at the training plan, or the bid, "wouldn't be able to share it with you guys if I did"

Murray Strom, VP of Flt. Ops just announced to a PIT class that the plan is to have 6000 pilots on the property by end of 2024. That is approx 1800 pilots to hire in 26 months, plus all the up training of existing pilots. This was also the number we were told when shown the training plan. Take it for whatever you want.

Statements like this. Shilling. How do you know what Strom told a PIT class? Were you there? Or did Strom tell you personally what he told them?

I'll take it as BS planted statement as above.

There is absolutely no way that Air Canada hires 2000 people in 2 years. They do not have the training capability. They and you are planting these statements among the membership, the ideas of the MOAB, quick upgrades, WB left seat SOON, etc etc to push management support.

And if they do indeed need to hire 2000 people in 2 years where are they going to get people? 10% of the furloughs didn't come back because our terms are so shitty, we are losing to ULCC startups, and anyone with an American wife or status is numbered in days, several are already gone, not new hites either, 10+ year guys and the report is they are making more year 1 than as top pay WB FOs or NB CAs, not to mention the several that are well on their way to visas...

This place NEEDS to fix pay if they want to keep people coming here, we don't have to give on scope or DBM limits to get it.

1020 hours/year? That's an 85 hr DBM every month. That's hundreds of jobs. Less premium. More time at work. Burn-out... Your vacation credit won't go as far either with no low DBM months... You could have 20 days vacation in a months and still have nearly 30 hours of flying to fit in to reach DBM, 2 Atlantic crossing.

And the scope let? This just frees up Jazz to do more of our flying. This also diversifies the company back stop to us. So when the day finally comes that we stand up and put pressure on with job action, they just have more of the flying already covered. Same with this wet lease, agreeing to contract out flying as we approach collective bargaining? How stupid are we?

We have so much leverage here, and some how we're being to convinced to give. Put the pressure on! Vote no, don't take the first offer, tell them no concessions, only gains and only for training flexibility, THEY NEED THIS.

[nowind]

Time to grab your phone and call everyone you know at AC. Seriously guys, we need all the no votes we can get before tuesday. I can see this big bid coming with hundreds of open CAPT position on it. They ll make sure that we know this bid is subject to MOA ratification. They are always one step ahead. Lets send the company a message that we are united and we deserve better!

[lenamade]

I can't believe the scope Concessions here. Unbelievable

[rudder]

Murray Strom, VP of Flt. Ops just announced to a PIT class that the plan is to have 6000 pilots on the property by end of 2024. That is approx 1800 pilots to hire in 26 months, plus all the up training of existing pilots. This was also the number we were told when shown the training plan. Take it for whatever you want.

Statements like this. Shilling. How do you know what Strom told a PIT class? Were you there? Or did Strom tell you personally what he told them?

I'll take it as BS planted statement as above.

There is absolutely no way that Air Canada hires 2000 people in 2 years. They do not have the training capability. They and you are planting these statements among the membership, the ideas of the MOAB, quick upgrades, WB left seat SOON, etc etc to push management support.

Apparently, 6000 is a 2028 forecast not 2024. I don’t doubt that MS said 6000 on Monday. Perhaps what was lost in translation is context.

Even with the MOA concessions I would still think that 600 PIT per annum would represent close to capacity, but you never know.

[airbournesailor]

Any word on how the YUL roadshow went?

[Core]

https://www.simplypsychology.org/compli ... urn%20down.

Psych 101 and Negot 101 are the same thing....

Pay attention guys... AKA WAKE UP GUYS!

Off topic but how did you do that with the link that then highlighted text you selected?

Hey, take a look at the link address itself:

Add #:~:text= to the end of the original page address. After the = type the first word you want to highlight. You can highlight one word, or an entire sentence by typing each word with a space in between or %20. (The %20 automatically populates to indicate a space).

If you want to highlight a paragraph a bit more simply, after the = type the first word(s) then a comma and %20, and the word(s) at the end of the quote, which is what I did in the link above.

Another example quoting this very page:
viewtopic.php?p=1216600#p1216600#:~:tex ... 20selected?

You have to include each %20 manually in this specific example or else the forum doesn't recognize it as a link. The forum also abbreviates the hyperlink with ... so you have to look at the actual address in the address bar to see how I did it.

Cheers!

[Dockjock]

No analysis appears to have been done as to WHY the airline doesn’t have the training capacity to implement some alleged expansion plan.
Training capacity is what, sims, instructors, classrooms?

Do they have enough simulators? No, they consistently under invest in capacity and end up sending people across the world for sim time.

Instructors? No, the conditions more so than the pay make that job undesirable or at least not desirable enough over just being a line pilot. Retirees and contractors have filled the gap but it’s not perfect. Line pilot FO’s, owing imo to the pay/housing affordability mismatch growing worse by the month in this country, no longer live within the radius that makes the drive in for multiple single day sim sessions per month worthwhile. Macro issue, but this is a big city company that doesn’t want to pay big city wages so people can live where they work. Ain’t no junior pilots living in Oakville anymore. And more to the capacity point, sending instructors across the world on multi-day and -week sim pairings requires lots of bodies.

Classrooms? No. There are not enough classrooms to conduct the amount of training courses, PIT, ITC, IRR, ART, Ground school…etc due again to chronic underinvestment in this infrastructure.

But the giant structural issue underlaying all of this, the shortage of sims, instructors classrooms, is the fleet. There are too many aircraft types. Choosing fleet types at this company is a political exercise. Or it’s a capital exercise. Or it’s…who knows. It is almost inconceivable that a competent, operations and efficiency-focussed leadership group could intentionally select Air Canada’s fleet. So here they are, they got 737’s cheap. They bought the C-series to help Bombardier. The self inflicted rouge airbus fleet is separate from mainline’s. There are two cargo planes. And and and. Efficiency just isn’t a core value and this is what has happened.

So is it on the pilots to provide flexibility to attempt to implement a training plan that still won’t work? The fact is that the fleet as-is begets too much training, the training capabilities of the airline are under developed, and the macro pay/housing issue makes instructing undesirable. Expansion is probably the last thing this company should be entertaining at this time.

[Chateau]

Any word on how the YUL roadshow went?

Usual YUL Road Show

Dan spreading company propoganda in why we can't get anything

Asked why the 600 furloughs can't get years of service and said "well then other employee groups would ask for it"

The usual lack of sympathy for people that got laid off because members have been in the past as well

If we vote no, his buds in management said they will punish us so we better say yes

Overall, the usual and what we can expect with Dan at the helm in YUL. More concessions during good times and even more during bad. Always more concessions to help the company

[schnitzel2k3]

If this is the best the union feels it can bring forward, this industry is going to fail to make any progress. Only time AC management negotiates is when there is fear in the pilot group; recession.

'We'll let you hold onto this little bit of flying, but you're going to need to give us something...'

This should be an instant no, we'll see you in 2023 with the ability to strike, and we're not coming for the house, we're coming for everything.

[Aspiredtofly]

What's the news on the vote till now? When will the vote results come out?

[a2btrail]

What's the news on the vote till now? When will the vote results come out?

The MEC has authorized the ratification vote which began on Friday, September 30 and will close
on Tuesday, October 11, 2022. The results come out after Oct 11 and before month's end to my understanding. There is no exact release date of results that has been announced.

[Lt. Daniel Kaffee]

If this is the best the union feels it can bring forward, this industry is going to fail to make any progress. Only time AC management negotiates is when there is fear in the pilot group; recession.

'We'll let you hold onto this little bit of flying, but you're going to need to give us something...'

This should be an instant no, we'll see you in 2023 with the ability to strike, and we're not coming for the house, we're coming for everything.

You're right...no one else is talking about a recession other than AC management and the ACPA schills...you figured it out.

Instant no... ha ha....I was looking on the voting website and I couldn't find a voting option "Instant No"...and I was also looking for "Hard No"...apparently neither option is available.

Can you explain what you are doing to improve pilot working conditions? Nothing? I thought so. Why are you so interested in AC pilot working conditions? So you can ride on their coat-tails? Figured.