This is a Yes

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QKZXKV
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Re: This is a Yes

Post by QKZXKV »

Ratherbe wrote: Fri Sep 30, 2022 1:44 pm Vote yes and support the our negots team or vote no and support the lunatics....again
Naive... Again
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Chateau
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Re: This is a Yes

Post by Chateau »

Ratherbe wrote: Fri Sep 30, 2022 1:44 pm Vote yes and support the our negots team or vote no and support the lunatics....again
The lunatics that don't want to give away concessions during a mass labour shortage

The nerve of them!!!
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altiplano
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Re: This is a Yes

Post by altiplano »

Vote no and send a message of solidarity that we won't continue to make concessions and we can't be bought off with miniscule, temporary gains. That's the message we need going into a contract year.

There is no risk voting this down, the company will probably come with another proposal. But if not main table negots start in the New Year.

Flat pay has to go anyway, the company needs to attract more applicants, turns out that it isn't gone at the LCC under this deal anyway! What an oversight by the NC & MEC, or was it? Set the standard that we have to pay to get rid of it and we'll be paying twice here.

More time to reach top pay? Not a gain.

90% 777 freight pay established. Not a gain.

Open ended seniority concessions. How exposed will we be on this one alone.

Permanent training flexibility concessions. No snap backs again?

Open ended and uncapped scope concessions on 55 seat jets operated by cideshare and US regionals on top of our already high number of regionals permitted under the CPA deal with Jazz. This isn't there for nothing and the association has done zero analysis on this. Opening scope is never a good idea.

There are so many things wrong here... it was one thing to do a temporary let for training flexibility, but we have put permanent concessions in here for temporary and disappearing gains that add up to a couple bucks a day per pilot take home.

Hard No.
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RoAF-Mig21
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Re: This is a Yes

Post by RoAF-Mig21 »

I'll say this once, as a non-Air Canada pilot.

YOU, Air Canada pilots, are the ones that need to raise the bar and set an example. If you can't do that, there is no hope for the rest of us. Vote whatever is in your best collective interest. Look South of the border, look overseas and compare. See what you're worth. If you raise the bar, the rest of us will follow suit.

Like the old meme goes:
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Protonpilot
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Re: This is a Yes

Post by Protonpilot »

altiplano wrote: Fri Sep 30, 2022 3:32 pm

Flat pay has to go anyway, the company needs to attract more applicants, turns out that it isn't gone at the LCC under this deal anyway! What an oversight by the NC & MEC, or was it? Set the standard that we have to pay to get rid of it and we'll be paying twice here.

More time to reach top pay? Not a gain.


I've checked with a rep, the new rates for years 1-4 in the MOA will apply to all new hires, full stop. The LCC rumor started on a forum, no basis in fact.

Year 13 and 14 new rates is a gain, a lot of guys on the line don't understand this one. 1300 members currently have more than 12 YOS, instant pay raise. And 99% of pilots will eventually have more than 12 YOS and will benefit. Nothing in this one is being spread out, only added. Pretty straightforward, not sure why there's so much confusion on this particular piece.
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Re: This is a Yes

Post by rooster »

Protonpilot wrote: Fri Sep 30, 2022 5:01 pm
altiplano wrote: Fri Sep 30, 2022 3:32 pm

Flat pay has to go anyway, the company needs to attract more applicants, turns out that it isn't gone at the LCC under this deal anyway! What an oversight by the NC & MEC, or was it? Set the standard that we have to pay to get rid of it and we'll be paying twice here.

More time to reach top pay? Not a gain.


I've checked with a rep, the new rates for years 1-4 in the MOA will apply to all new hires, full stop. The LCC rumor started on a forum, no basis in fact.

Year 13 and 14 new rates is a gain, a lot of guys on the line don't understand this one. 1300 members currently have more than 12 YOS, instant pay raise. And 99% of pilots will eventually have more than 12 YOS and will benefit. Nothing in this one is being spread out, only added. Pretty straightforward, not sure why there's so much confusion on this particular piece.
Pay raise of $1.96% over the extra 2 years??? LOLLLLL

Ahh, I see it now. 6 posts in total from you. Seems like all the trolls over this vote have less than 10 posts. Interesting :roll:
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unionism101
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Re: This is a Yes

Post by unionism101 »

I met a fairey today that granted me one wish.

"I want to live forever", I said

"Sorry" said the fairey "I'm not allowed to grant wishes like that!"

"Fine" I said. "I want to die after ACPA makes a deal that doesn't involve concessions"

"You crafty bastard" said the fairey

"You ever thought about going into management?"
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Ratherbe
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Re: This is a Yes

Post by Ratherbe »

"The LCC rumor started on a forum, no basis in fact."

Do we never learn?

If you have a brain don't vote until the 11th. Read the entire package, ask questions, get answers - not from the forum from the pilots that were at the Negots table. There's no bonus for voting early.

Ignore pilots with agendas that diverge from securing an awesome contract.

Watch BNN for 5 minutes and ask yourself if we will be in a stronger bargaining position next year. Maybe or maybe not? Secure the gains now to raise the starting point nevertheless.

Support the Negots Team now, the guys who are recommending this MOA, as that will empower them to bring back a full CBA with lots of gains next year.

That's negotiating 101
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lenaumade
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Re: This is a Yes

Post by lenaumade »

Hi,

First and foremost, I think we can all debate and respect each other choice to vote whatever we want, and respect that choice.

I really really hope I am wrong but...:

1) There is no competition with Air Canada concerning the pilots wages and conditions. Westjet do not pay enough, they don t have a pension funds etc...WJ pilots are coming to AC and not the opposite.
So our market is very different from the US since there is only one company. Not Four or Five majors trying to give the best deal to experiences pilots

2) Today,the stock market hit his lowest point since 1930...yeah....And the mortgage rate are super high. Next year, there will be less people going to vacation since a lots of them will see their mortgage goint up by 4%. Which will be a disaster for many families. So maybe a decrease in demand for air travel.

3) if in a year there is less passenger then...the negocitation will be very different of what we think of it as of now. If the company got less buisness next year and we come to the table to negociate....They re gonna give us a shitty contract.

4) Maybe the company will come back with a counteroffer, you seem sure of it....but...maybe not.
There is nothing certain of that. I hope I am wrong also.

5) the union did this following the poll. The result and the main subject was to get rid of the flat pay. 2 years is still too long but see my point number 1 why they do not really care. the 2 years is big gain for all the guy on the flat pay. It is ajump in wages between 30 to 50%. But since a lot of you are out of the flat pay, you are looking at what's in it for you. So here's the so called pilot unity.
Most of thoses guy got furloughed and this increase in wages will count as the years of service lost during the 18 month of pandemic.
The new members are struggling not the 9 years Wide body FO or the new captain.
So if you vote yes you actually will help those guys.
if you vote no you will help your condition because you have nothing to lose saying no. The flatpayer will have another year on the flatpay until negociation.


4) We re all talking about pilot unity but most of the complaints are the guys on WB who will have to work 85dbm instead of 80 for pratically the same wages. Totally understandable. Then the argument is that we will save some pilot job. Valid argument but lets be honest here. That is not why you are not happy with this dbm. It is because you will lose 5 hours.

5) The wet lease is for 12 months only. So it is not like it s something permanent. And in 12 month if they want to continue that may be a good tool to negociate something else.

6) I hear a lot of "we are not negociationg for Jazz" here again is your "pilot unity". AC is hiring everybody except the jazz guy for the last 6 months. This LOa would allow them to get into the company and still meet the operationnal need at jazz. How come is it not a good idea? I m happy for the jazz guy. This will be our future colleague and they need to be treated well and differently than us when we arrived on property.

7) so here is how it will go : Flatpayer will vote yes in majority or 50/50 because they want to get out of the flat pay.
the 5-12 will vote no because they do not have any gain to do so
the Cargo guy will vote no because of the fear of the wet lease
the plus 12 years narrowbody will vote yes and the +12 years widebody will vote no
Here again is your pilot unity. Everybody is preaching for his own church

8) Negociation is next year. Maybe I am wrong but I doubt we will do a union change during this year. Changing union can be very long.

9) A strike is a leverage. and the only real one. That is the sad truth. But again, who will follow a movement like that?

10) Everybody should be able to vote whatever they want and being respected. They are good arguments on both side of the panels
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hithere
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Re: This is a Yes

Post by hithere »

"6) I hear a lot of "we are not negociationg for Jazz" here again is your "pilot unity". AC is hiring everybody except the jazz guy for the last 6 months. This LOa would allow them to get into the company and still meet the operationnal need at jazz. How come is it not a good idea? I m happy for the jazz guy. This will be our future colleague and they need to be treated well and differently than us when we arrived on property."

You are sadly mistaken if you think you are doing the Jazz pilots a favour with this MOA.
Reality check:
This MOA, if ratified, has the effect of removing any leverage the Jazz pilots would have to achieve any type of gains in WAWCON, because you will be solving the Jazz and AC pilot recruitment issue until 2025. Pilot recruitment is not ACPA or Alpa problem. Let AC and Jazz fix their pilot shortage by increasing pilot compensation at both properties with a stroke of a pen.No MOA is required for that.
Westjet and Encore are working together to achieve gains and both properties by moving in the exact opposite direction that ACPA is: they just voted to terminate their Pilot Transfer Agreement(present Encore pilots grandfathered).
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lenaumade
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Re: This is a Yes

Post by lenaumade »

The union is negociating for us. The agreement of 17 years for jazz has been signed in 2018 if I remember well, 2018 was a record year for number of passengers. And Still, we were not able to secure anything with our union.

So let s not overestimate our bargaining power with our union here.

Your whole strategy is that we vote no and the company will come back for sure to offer us more. Maybe you re right but maybe you re wrong. If you re wrong, pilot outside of jazz and AC will continue to flow to AC. Jazz will be shortstaff and yes eventually in 4 to 6 months they may improve the conditions....but let s not hold our breath.
Maybe it will be a year. During this year, how many pit course will start? They already lost a good 6 months of seniority. So maybe another 100 pilots 200 pilots 300 pilots in front of them.

It is easy to say that when you are already at AC but if you were at jazz you would not want to play this game.
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negative_g
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Re: This is a Yes

Post by negative_g »

Ratherbe wrote: Fri Sep 30, 2022 7:26 pm

Support the Negots Team now, the guys who are recommending this MOA, as that will empower them to bring back a full CBA with lots of gains next year.

That's negotiating 101
:lol: :lol:

You have no idea what negotiating 101 is my guy.
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hithere
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Re: This is a Yes

Post by hithere »

I am at Jazz
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lenaumade
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Re: This is a Yes

Post by lenaumade »

ok...So you do not see any issue waiting for another 6 months minimum to see your conditions improving? while we are talking, they are still hiring from other companies. And again, it can concern hundred of pilots in front of you and the jazz guy. I m not sure your colleagues would agree...
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negative_g
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Re: This is a Yes

Post by negative_g »

Actually most of the people I've talked to at Jazz, once I explained what else is in the deal are all a hell no. They're smart enough to know there's massive leverage here, for both groups.
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lenaumade
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Re: This is a Yes

Post by lenaumade »

So you re telling me that when you explain to them that they will have to wait another 6 month to a year until the conditions improve while hundreds of pilots go to AC in front of them is a good thing?

Then we do not talk to the same people because i have exactly the opposite reaction when I talked to the guy at jazz who mostly want to go to AC ASAP.
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negative_g
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Re: This is a Yes

Post by negative_g »

They understand the issues with scope, the opening the DBM and how it will have bigger longer term effects on their careers. Thankfully friends of mine are smart enough to not get distracted with short term shiny objects. I'm sure there's others who are drooling at the idea of deferrals. Just not within my circle, and largely after I explained some parts in the MOA to them that aren't overly public.
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altiplano
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Re: This is a Yes

Post by altiplano »

negative_g wrote: Fri Sep 30, 2022 8:54 pm
Ratherbe wrote: Fri Sep 30, 2022 7:26 pm

Support the Negots Team now, the guys who are recommending this MOA, as that will empower them to bring back a full CBA with lots of gains next year.

That's negotiating 101
:lol: :lol:

You have no idea what negotiating 101 is my guy.
Right! The company shills call agreeing to concessions UNITY!

HAHAHA... taking the first offer and giving up leverage EMPOWERS us!

No duckin way.

These guys are stupid.
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daedalusx
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Re: This is a Yes

Post by daedalusx »

altiplano wrote: Sat Oct 01, 2022 3:18 am
negative_g wrote: Fri Sep 30, 2022 8:54 pm
Ratherbe wrote: Fri Sep 30, 2022 7:26 pm

Support the Negots Team now, the guys who are recommending this MOA, as that will empower them to bring back a full CBA with lots of gains next year.

That's negotiating 101
:lol: :lol:

You have no idea what negotiating 101 is my guy.
Right! The company shills call agreeing to concessions UNITY!

HAHAHA... taking the first offer and giving up leverage EMPOWERS us!

No duckin way.

These guys are stupid.
It’s 5d chess. If you surrender to your enemy and give him what he wants, you win. - Sun Tzu

I mean, surely by licking the boots of management, they will like how it feels and offer more on the next round of negotiation.
- Negotiations 101
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Re: This is a Yes

Post by JHR »

Some of you AC guys must suffer from mental illness!
You are the lowest paid airline pilots IN THE WORLD! They call you the Pirates of the Atlantic. Air Nigeria has you beat!
It is time to take a stand. Get a real pay increase. None of this BS 1.9%
Why is AC offering to shorten flat pay? Out of the kindness of their hearts? NO it's because they are having trouble attracting the talent they want. Time to completely abolish flat pay. Now is your chance. You pilots set the tone for the rest of Canada. If you continue to accept shit contracts we all pay for it!
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