AC Mainline w/o degree

dangerous · Post by **dangerous** » Tue Nov 08, 2005 5:37 pm

Is there any degree that is worth more than others as far as airlines are concerned? There's tonnes of things I could get a degree in: science, arts, engineering, commerce, and even basket weaving. Which ones do airlines prefer? Also, do they care which university you went to?

jammer · Post by **jammer** » Tue Nov 08, 2005 5:46 pm

You think it's bad up there, you should see it down here in the US.

98 % of Major airline pilots have a Bac. degree. 98% !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

30 % of the guys I flly with have Masters Deg.

It is a very high priority here- and by the sounds of it it is becoming more of a priority up there.

I know that in the 70's and 80's Delta did a study on the their "Washouts" and a high majority of them were degreeless.

Since then they implemented the requirement and everyone followed suite down here.

My only advise is "GET ONE" if you can, and if you can't, I guess the best you can do is to warn all the young aspiring pilots that you know in Canada to get their degrees. It's sad to see so much frustration out there

good luck to all (Degreed and Degreeless)

flyindude · Post by **flyindude** » Tue Nov 08, 2005 6:16 pm

Well, I'd hate to see my correspondence degree in Firearm Repair go to waste.

avio · Post by **avio** » Wed Nov 09, 2005 10:01 pm

Hello Forum,
I have been closely observing this discussion topic and felt its time i posted my views on DEGREE / NO DEGREE . As some people have already said , its a discussion pretty much like a double edged knife . I would like to state in the begining itself that i mean no offence to anyone whatsoever .

Coming to the degree/ no degree , someone has said their Fireman correspondence degree would go a waste . Well if your only aim to get a degree is to make sure one has an edge in recruitment process then it sure is a waste . Let me ask the same person who asked the forum , which relevant degree he should take to work for an airliner .

" SAFETY " is the biggest factor for pilots . Its the very reason why a degree should be helpful too . When no one is sure whether they would fly as a pilot when training , why shouldnt they have a backup . Well , if someone is so confident that they can make it without a degree to mainline pilot career , good for them .

But i still feel, a person , who can sit in the interview panel and answer a question like " Why should we hire you at AC "? saying , i would be more than a driver of your fleet with my degree ( degree here again is not those online / correspondence ) . Any organization needs people from various backgrounds , and this cannot be denied . Be it sciences , engineering , arts , administration . AC needs all kinds of people to run their organization .
And if one is in a position to make a safety precaution of still hanging around after loosing out to the guyz with 1000's hours without degrees , it sure should send a right signal to the recruiting guyz . This infact answers a lot of simple questions an interview panel would like to know about a prospective employee .

Goal setting , preventive measures incase of failure and many reasons . I am not saying a person without a degree will not have these traits . But , any given day , a degree is more likely to save the day than no degree , specially in those times when there is so much competition around .

Infact , i read somewhere , How does one diffrentiate between a Bus driver and a pilot . For me the question did make a lot of sense , though it was stated for humor . How and why are pilots different . Same reason why US has 98 % of their pilot population holding degrees . It shows basically the system is being run by people who have had a balanced exposure towards education , be it relating to aircrafts or non aircraft related .

Doesnt mean the management is dumb if they hire someone with a so called " BASKET WEAVING DEGREE " . Atleast he is trained in that , so that if the airline were to fire him , he would weave baskets . What about people who cannot weave .

I am sorry if my discussion sounded one sided , but i am someone who would be working soon on my licenses . Felt i should post .

Jude · Post by **Jude** » Thu Nov 10, 2005 3:43 am

the question I have is....what would be the difference of spending 2 years getting a Diploma, than 4 year for a degree to an airline??it both shows ambition, that they are teacheable etc??. And whats wrong wih online correspodence degrees? some people don't have the time to go to school 6 hours a day.

Jaques Strappe · Post by **Jaques Strappe** » Thu Nov 10, 2005 5:19 am

Jude

There is no difference really. We need to remember also that it is not the degree that is going to get you hired either. It may eliminate some of the competition and get you a crack at an interview, from there it is all up to the individual.

JayDee · Post by **JayDee** » Thu Nov 10, 2005 8:17 am

In 2006 AC plans on hiring around 200 pilots. and then a minimum of 100 in 2007, 2008 and on & on & on just to cover retirements, let alone the planned expansion, probably another 100-150 needed / yr

They already have 5000 applications on file.

What makes YOU stand out from the crowd? Why are YOU better than the next person ?

It doesn't take a genius to figure out they will weed through all the applications and cherry pick the best all around qualified applicants....candidates suited to their needs over the long term .

Put your self in their shoes...you have been given the job to hire the best pilots you can find....you have 5000 people to pick from.......all candidates have obviously proven they can fly ( ...imo.it really doesn't mean squat how or where you got that experience, or how much etc etc, as long as you have it , 4000 vs 14,000 hrs...who really cares ).

You have to chose between two people....looking at it from a long term ( 30 year) perspective...

Which candidate will most probably give you the best bang for your buck over the long run for your mega $$$ investment in them?

Which candidate has already proven they will go the extra mile to achieve?

Do you pick the candidate with a degree or the one without a degree?

The answer is, or should be, obvious.

avio · Post by **avio** » Thu Nov 10, 2005 9:14 am

Hello Jaydee ,
Hit the nail on the head , put all yourselves in AC's recruitment shoes .

I guess the answer is obvious.

centerstored · Post by **centerstored** » Thu Nov 10, 2005 8:45 pm

How do you know there are 5000 resumes on file? If you do know that, what percentage of applicants do you figure have a degree? How many do you figure have over 4000 hours?

gelbisch · Post by **gelbisch** » Fri Nov 11, 2005 5:22 am

5000+, actually. It was stated in a message from Flt Ops.

land3 · Post by **land3** » Fri Nov 11, 2005 5:51 pm

Quote two weeks ago from the gentleman who maintains the pilot applicant database:

"3,000 applications on file"

767 · Post by **767** » Fri Nov 11, 2005 8:28 pm

jammer wrote:You think it's bad up there, you should see it down here in the US.

98 % of Major airline pilots have a Bac. degree. 98% !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

30 % of the guys I flly with have Masters Deg.

It is a very high priority here- and by the sounds of it it is becoming more of a priority up there.

I know that in the 70's and 80's Delta did a study on the their "Washouts" and a high majority of them were degreeless.

Since then they implemented the requirement and everyone followed suite down here.

My only advise is "GET ONE" if you can, and if you can't, I guess the best you can do is to warn all the young aspiring pilots that you know in Canada to get their degrees. It's sad to see so much frustration out there

good luck to all (Degreed and Degreeless)

thats the U.S. the most ef'd up place in the world. if i am ever asked to fly there, hell no. dont wanna get arrested as soon as i land....

confuzed · Post by **confuzed** » Fri Nov 11, 2005 11:45 pm

windshear wrote:It seems that the pilots who chose not to go to university/college and haven't been selected for AC are bitter towards the ones that chose otherwise. Remember it was your decision.

So what you're saying windshear is for those people that could either afford a pilot licence or a degree, should've chosen a degree??? How does that make sense if you want to be a pilot?? Also, how do you explain the fact that some people would rather bypass this apparently important piece of paper to gain some actual experience in chosen field?

Uncleron, just because you don't have a degree doesn't mean you don't have the capabilities of getting one. If you can sit down and study for an atpl licence which is the highest possible licence attainable, doesn't this show perserverence as well? Sure it takes a lot less time to attain an atpl, but it still shows you have the determination to better yourself and your professional career. Someone who has stuck with the industry through thick and thin shows character. They have shown the determination, the drive, the desire, the ambition, the perserverence, etc... to attain their goals. To simply count someone out because they don't have this magical piece of paper is wrong in my eye. I wish I could afford to do a degree right now through long distance education, but it's not in my cards right now. However, I can guarantee you that I have the same drive and determination that joe blow with a degree does. Am I bitter that I don't have a degree? Nope, just have other things that have priority in my life, like a family to take care of. Just a thought.

uncleron · Post by **uncleron** » Sat Nov 12, 2005 6:50 am

The people that are saying that a degree is no big deal are the ones that don't know what is involved in obtaining one.It goes way beyond a piece of paper.The people that do the interviewing have degrees and realise the work ethic involved.Comparing a 4 year degree to obtaing an ATPL shows you don't know ...my ATPL took one month to study for.

I knew 15 years ago that pilots with a degree would have a better shot a AC, so I wanted to better my chances and obtain my degree and also have something to fall back on if aviation didn't work out or I failed my medical.Did I have the $30,000 for the degree...no I got student loans.

While I took 4 years to get a degree, you probably built up 3-4000 hours of flight time....maybe this is a way to help level the playing field.

Bottom line is a degree does not make a better pilot, but in such a compeditive market it does help seperate you from others.Not saying it's right, but every career is like that and education is important.Wish everyone good luck.

AOA · Post by **AOA** » Sat Nov 12, 2005 9:32 am

Just a thought... With Captain Dave Legge coming from retirement what educational background does he have??

Personally I have an Aviation diploma but believe that as an industry we should lean towards a "new" standard. It's great that we all come from different backgrounds but how do those backgrounds translate into a professional environment during flight ops. I think we should have a higher standard ATPL. One that covers advanced flight ops, CRM, technical components etc. Something that as an industry we should come to recognize, and by its selective testing and rigorous standards this will become the true stand out point among us in the industry.

confuzed · Post by **confuzed** » Sat Nov 12, 2005 12:06 pm

uncleron wrote:The people that are saying that a degree is no big deal are the ones that don't know what is involved in obtaining one.It goes way beyond a piece of paper.The people that do the interviewing have degrees and realise the work ethic involved.Comparing a 4 year degree to obtaing an ATPL shows you don't know ...my ATPL took one month to study for.

Never in my post did I say that an ATPL is comparable to a degree, I just said that it does show one's desire to better themselves in a career perspective. Believe me, I fully understand all it entails to obtain a degree as I have thoroughly researched how much of my life it would require. Student loans are great......if they'll loan you the money, if not you're S.O.L. You have to also take into consideration people's situations. You could have a guy/gal that have a mortgage on a house, a family to raise, that live in a fairly pricey town who don't make a whole lot of money.......even if they're a captain on a turboprop. It's like I said before, in my situation for example I'd love to be able to do some distance education, but it's not an option. Maybe I should've bypassed having a family and a home, just so I could get a degree and be more admirable to those reviewing resumes

Martin Tamme · Post by **Martin Tamme** » Sat Nov 12, 2005 12:56 pm

AOA wrote:Just a thought... With Captain Dave Legge coming from retirement what educational background does he have??

Dave Legge spent years in the military.
He has a Bachelor in Engineering and an MBA (Master of Business Administration)

Just for comparison, these were my qualifications when I finally got interviewed by Air Canada:

30 years old
7000 hours TT
3000 hours PIC

Time on King Airs, Dash 8s and B727s

Bachelor of Engineering
MBA

Languages: English, French & German

Bede · Post by **Bede** » Sat Nov 12, 2005 1:37 pm

What's better (or dumber): AC's degree preference or WJ internal reference preferance?

I don't believe a degree makes one a better pilot, but HR needs something to differentiate between pilots. A degree/diploma cuts the 4000 applications to 2000. It just makes life a bit easier for them.

windshear · Post by **windshear** » Sat Nov 12, 2005 6:26 pm

"Also, how do you explain the fact that some people would rather bypass this apparently important piece of paper to gain some actual experience in chosen field?"

Confuzed, that was my point. They CHOSE not to get a degree.

Also, judging by your use of the words "apparently important piece of paper" you clearly don't believe a degree is of any value, but it would seem that some people do.

Speed Indeed · Post by **Speed Indeed** » Sun Nov 13, 2005 10:27 am

It amazes me how many people will play down the importance of an education. Everyones story is different, but stop for a moment and look through job requirements in other feilds. Most jobs will have a list of minimum requirements, and then there will be a list of additional requirements. Included in that list is usually some form of higher education. By no means am I saying that a pilot with a degree will fly better than a non-degree pilot, but like many have said it isn't just the bare minimum that companies look for nowadays. In todays age it isn't about bare minimums, it about employability and differentiating yourself from the rest of the pack. Uncleron, you said exactly what I was thinking. I knew many years ago about the degree aspect and then got my licences. If you dont have the requirements then apply somewhere else. There are many places that I would like to work, but don't have the requirements. Life isn't fair, but we all know that already!!

windshear · Post by **windshear** » Sun Nov 13, 2005 11:21 am

I couldn't agree more Speed. Well said.

cheers.

confuzed · Post by **confuzed** » Sun Nov 13, 2005 11:41 am

It's not that I underestimate how important higher education is. I simply think to discount someone because they don't have it is a little unfair. There are people who may not be able to afford to do it even though they want to. Some people have mentioned student loans, but there are lots of people who don't qualify. Others may still not be able to afford to take on the additional debt load. As you are well aware, even turboprop captains can make crap money that is tied up with other things which are decidedly more important. Don't get me wrong, I've done my homework when it comes to what's involved in attaining higher education through distance learning. I have also witnessed some negative things when it comes to peoples "degrees". People who do nothing but party hard, slack off, and cram at the last minute. They somehow manage to do ok, but ask them anything related to their "major" 6 months after they're done and they look at you like you're from Mars. However, it's this individual that would get hired before I would because they have this "degree". Believe me, that's frustrating. Now, to those that studied their ass off and got great marks and truly did earn it, then I respect that. I too would love an opportunity, but will have to wait. It's just too bad that I won't be able to afford it untill I'm quite a bit older, which by that time will be too late for me to even see an airline. Am I bitter about it, hell no. It's just like I said earlier, that it's just a little discouraging knowing that all your hard work has been almost in vain. To those of you who managed to afford both, then I salute you and wish you the best. However, just don't wipe it in my face that you have a degree in basketweaving or didn't really "earn" your degree (as with the above mentioned example) and how happy you are with AC. To me that is just unprofessional, and disappointing that that's how the system works.

On a side note though, people are saying that every industry looks for higher education. Don't be too quick to be sure of yourself on that. My dad used to be in charge of hiring where he is, and he would rather hire the people that had experience in the field. According to him, they take less time to train, amongst other things. I think a combination of both is essential, however don't count someone out at least give them a chance. Just a thought anyway. Of course there will people who will disagree with me on the subject as they are in the position where they have a degree. They are not in the position of others and can't put themselves in that mindset, which is fine. Everyone's entitled to an opinion.

Jaques Strappe · Post by **Jaques Strappe** » Sun Nov 13, 2005 1:23 pm

At the very least, one should be able to spell. That eliminates most of us on here.

centerstored · Post by **centerstored** » Sun Nov 13, 2005 1:54 pm

It comes down to this...what professional career choice doesn't require a degree?

av8tor_assrope · Post by **av8tor_assrope** » Sun Nov 13, 2005 3:39 pm

i'm not knocking the degree or the degreeless…..i did two years of my bsc before dropping out of uni…..but it kills me to think guys spent 30 000++++ on their flight training, 25 000 (40 000 if you lived on campus) on uni…..just to hit the ramp. talk about well rounded