Easiest "No" Vote to Come to this pilot group to date

[Jimmy_Hoffa]

Send this back and get a good deal.

You mean like when we turned down the TA and got FOS? You never learn. Go back and check our discussions. Your predictions are wrong and your character assessments are wrong too.

You and the p4c are misleading the junior pilots and playing on their emotions.

The only other comparison is apparently how united the membership is across all demographics with how poor this deal is.

-Jimmy

[Fanblade]

Send this back and get a good deal.

You mean like when we turned down the TA and got FOS? You never learn. Go back and check our discussions. Your predictions are wrong and your character assessments are wrong too.

You and the p4c are misleading the junior pilots and playing on their emotions.

The only other comparison is apparently how united the membership is across all demographics with how poor this deal is.

-Jimmy

Hoffa,

Ratherbe was using the threat of arbitration out of context. So many AC pilots still don’t really understand what happened and why FOS took place.

He is correct though. In Canada, if you sign an MOA and then end up in arbitration (no risk on this MOA) the starting point for the arbitrator is the MOA.

That is exactly what happened with TA1 and the FOS.

Signing an MOA is a BIG deal. If you are in full blown negotiations it could be irreversible in arbitration. Again this doesn’t apply here. There is no risk of arbitration.

Now think about it. Do you really want the MOA signing authority to remain in ACPA’s hands when the risk of arbitration is real come next fall?

Maybe this crap of an MOA was a good thing. Maybe it will push us in a direction that avoids a bullet next year. Remember who pushed this deal. Get them out of office.

[Jimmy_Hoffa]

You mean like when we turned down the TA and got FOS? You never learn. Go back and check our discussions. Your predictions are wrong and your character assessments are wrong too.

You and the p4c are misleading the junior pilots and playing on their emotions.

The only other comparison is apparently how united the membership is across all demographics with how poor this deal is.

-Jimmy

Hoffa,

Ratherbe was using the threat of arbitration out of context. So many AC pilots still don’t really understand what happened and why FOS took place.

He is correct though. In Canada, if you sign an MOA and then end up in arbitration (no risk on this MOA) the starting point for the arbitrator is the MOA.

That is exactly what happened with TA1 and the FOS.

Signing an MOA is a BIG deal. If you are in full blown negotiations it could be irreversible in arbitration. Again this doesn’t apply here. There is no risk of arbitration.

Now think about it. Do you really want the MOA signing authority to remain in ACPA’s hands when the risk of arbitration is real?

Thanks for the clarification. I’ve been at AC for the whole show and well versed in the TA1/NC1/NC2/27+1/strike/lockout/FOS/10yr deal/BW/GW/KV/MM/GR et Al. There is a lot to unpack there including when the corp agreed to proceed in FOS under pre TA1 contract. No no one group is free from errors along that entire time frame. This is nothing like that from a bargaining position, the contract is closed. Hence the comment about over a simplification of the comparison. This is not open bargaining. I think we are trying to say the same thing.

How can you remove the MOA signing authority from the legal bargaining agent? Unless you mean a whole sale change to ALPA. Then I am all for it.

-Jimmy

[negative_g]

Send this back and get a good deal.

You mean like when we turned down the TA and got FOS? You never learn. Go back and check our discussions. Your predictions are wrong and your character assessments are wrong too.

You and the p4c are misleading the junior pilots and playing on their emotions.

Are you serious dude?

FOS? You realize we are locked in until 2024, right? That goes both ways. We walk away, nothing happens. Well one of two things happen. AC exec have to answer to the board why they can't fly the schedule next summer, or they come back to the table with more moolah.

Stop with the fear and stockholm syndrome. It's getting old.

Also I recall pretty much everyone was fucking furious about this MOA long before P4C said anything about it.

[negative_g]

Send this back and get a good deal.

You mean like when we turned down the TA and got FOS? You never learn. Go back and check our discussions. Your predictions are wrong and your character assessments are wrong too.

You and the p4c are misleading the junior pilots and playing on their emotions.

The only other comparison is apparently how united the membership is across all demographics with how poor this deal is.

-Jimmy

I've never seen it so unified. It's great to see. I heard the YYZ roadshow was a banger.

[Fanblade]

.

How can you remove the MOA signing authority from the legal bargaining agent? Unless you mean a whole sale change to ALPA. Then I am all for it.

-Jimmy

Exactly what I meant. ALPA

How high do you think the risk is that ACPA brings you a substandard MOA at a time when arbitration IS actually a threat?

I see it as a substantial threat. They are afraid of confrontation. That means ACPA has to come to a deal without any labor action whatsoever. The company knows it.

The ONLY thing ACPA is going to bring us is an extension of whatever the company wants.

[pseudovector]

You mean like when we turned down the TA and got FOS? You never learn. Go back and check our discussions. Your predictions are wrong and your character assessments are wrong too.

You and the p4c are misleading the junior pilots and playing on their emotions.

The only other comparison is apparently how united the membership is across all demographics with how poor this deal is.

-Jimmy

I've never seen it so unified. It's great to see. I heard the YYZ roadshow was a banger.

How long have you been at AC?
How many times have you been on strike as a pilot?
What is your sample size for the assertion above?

[negative_g]

It is not going to 85 instead of 80.
It is going to 85 DBM every month rather than surging to 88 in the summer and less in other months.
It is going up 24 hours max per year (996 to 1020).
If you take the average wide body day to be 8 hours then that equates to 3 extra working days per year.
If you take the average wide body day to be 12 hours then that equates to 2 extra working days per year.
And they are paid days.

Average WB days are closer to like 5 hours TAFB. Also the 88 "surge" is very limited, it can't be every fleet and every year. The 85 is a major increase in hours worked, and will decreased the amount of jobs required to man the fleet. Big no.

I'm usually a lurker. But I had to pipe up on this. I'm curious what wide body at AC averages 5 hours "Time Away From Base"? Maybe I'm confused what TAFB means. Maybe you're confused. We might all be confused.

So you could do a 3 day trip to Europe with a 7 hour and 8 hour flight return, 24 hours off in the middle and the average credit per day over 3 days is 5 hours.

Just because WB pilots fly long legs doesn't mean their average credit per day is much higher.

[Humble]

Average WB days are closer to like 5 hours TAFB. Also the 88 "surge" is very limited, it can't be every fleet and every year. The 85 is a major increase in hours worked, and will decreased the amount of jobs required to man the fleet. Big no.

I'm usually a lurker. But I had to pipe up on this. I'm curious what wide body at AC averages 5 hours "Time Away From Base"? Maybe I'm confused what TAFB means. Maybe you're confused. We might all be confused.

So you could do a 3 day trip to Europe with a 7 hour and 8 hour flight return, 24 hours off in the middle and the average credit per day over 3 days is 5 hours.

Just because WB pilots fly long legs doesn't mean their average credit per day is much higher.

Right. All I’m saying is that you are getting TAFB confused with credit hours. Your very first sentence “ Average WB days are closer to like 5 hours TAFB”. I’d Love to go to work and be home 5 hours later on a wide body. Though, Ottawa turns in my opinion, are a little to rushed for a wide body.