Upcoming Air Canada vote ..

[negative_g]

Again can you elaborate how that helps AC pilots? Why should they give two shits about the revolving door regional airline that exists purely to drive costs down for flying small jets/turboprops. (And on that note why would the company even want more expensive mainline pilots flying regional jets?)

Most of which are planes that used to fly at Air Canada. We sold away our own flying and good jobs along with it. Instead of building Yos flying a CRJ at AC like the old guys did that 3-5 years at Jazz now means nothing. We're our own worst enemies.

"It's only 5 Q400s at the island"

[RockSalty]

Again can you elaborate how that helps AC pilots? Why should they give two shits about the revolving door regional airline that exists purely to drive costs down for flying small jets/turboprops. (And on that note why would the company even want more expensive mainline pilots flying regional jets?)

Most of which are planes that used to fly at Air Canada. We sold away our own flying and good jobs along with it. Instead of building Yos flying a CRJ at AC like the old guys did that 3-5 years at Jazz now means nothing. We're our own worst enemies.

"It's only 5 Q400s at the island"

You and basically every other big airline in North America operating RJs did that as far as I know.

My (uneducated) opinion is that flying is gone and probably isn’t worth fighting to get back (but it is worth fighting to not give up more), unless it’s something the company wants and can be used for leverage.

[crj_705]

The 2015 contract was necessary to ensure the long term viability of the CPA as we had GGN and SKY breathing down our necks with lower labour costs. With that 2015 contract we were able to entice a lot of tenured, DB pension Jazz guys to leave for AC thereby making Jazz a more competitive to compete with GGN and Sky for the CPA work. We have spent the majority of our bargaining capital since that time trying to rectify some of the things from the 2015 contract that we undesirable. finally with the GGN and SKY integration we were able to get rid of the supposed B scale and guarantee a minimum flow rate but at the expense of signing a long term contract. ALPA used significant bargaining capital to get that guarantee. In effect since 2015 most of the bargaining capital the the Jazz MEC has used is to the benefit of junior members.
The only leverage we currently have to fix our low pay rates is the current pilot shortage. And now that leverage is being taken from us without any input from us. AC is (or will be by the end of 2022) in violation of the minimum Jazz to AC flow rate. They know it, and they want ACPA to help them. ACPA's job is not to solve AC and Jazz pilot recruitment problems. Market forces are there for that.

It doesn’t surprise me that that is the narrative the Jazz old guard is pushing over there.

The only people left were the ones unfortunately PFO’d, the very close to retirement or the ones too short sighted to see a good thing in front of them.
In the last 7 years they’ve had to watch their coworkers go nearly direct left seat at AC making nearly double in some cases flying heavy metal all around the world while they are stuck at Jazz beating a path back and forth to YQR.
The environment in 2015 wasn’t nearly as dire as you make it out to be, GGN was already shitting the bed and the growth of Sky had already effectively stopped. 700++ of us, over 50% of the list voted yes for an opportunity to leave with full pay to the big leagues. The remaining 30% of yes votes were only concerned with keeping their DBs and A scale and couldn’t care less about the ones coming behind or we would have worked out some language for PML 2.0 when we signed it.


That same cadre of left behinds are the ones now trying to leverage the career progression of the post 2015 hires for more big gains for themselves.

My stomach is in knots for the Post 2015 Jazz hires who only went there for a path to the show who’s future is now in limbo as precious seniority slips away at an alarming rate. If we drag this out for 6 more months that’s 450 numbers lost, that could mean an entirely different career for pilots hired at Jazz with a promise of progression.

Sharklasers… my Mom told me to never say anything bad about someone you don’t know or have never met, make your own conclusions about them. The stuff spewing out of your mouth is nothing short of what my dog leaves on our lawn every morning…OMG

[Sharklasers]

The 2015 contract was necessary to ensure the long term viability of the CPA as we had GGN and SKY breathing down our necks with lower labour costs. With that 2015 contract we were able to entice a lot of tenured, DB pension Jazz guys to leave for AC thereby making Jazz a more competitive to compete with GGN and Sky for the CPA work. We have spent the majority of our bargaining capital since that time trying to rectify some of the things from the 2015 contract that we undesirable. finally with the GGN and SKY integration we were able to get rid of the supposed B scale and guarantee a minimum flow rate but at the expense of signing a long term contract. ALPA used significant bargaining capital to get that guarantee. In effect since 2015 most of the bargaining capital the the Jazz MEC has used is to the benefit of junior members.
The only leverage we currently have to fix our low pay rates is the current pilot shortage. And now that leverage is being taken from us without any input from us. AC is (or will be by the end of 2022) in violation of the minimum Jazz to AC flow rate. They know it, and they want ACPA to help them. ACPA's job is not to solve AC and Jazz pilot recruitment problems. Market forces are there for that.

It doesn’t surprise me that that is the narrative the Jazz old guard is pushing over there.

The only people left were the ones unfortunately PFO’d, the very close to retirement or the ones too short sighted to see a good thing in front of them.
In the last 7 years they’ve had to watch their coworkers go nearly direct left seat at AC making nearly double in some cases flying heavy metal all around the world while they are stuck at Jazz beating a path back and forth to YQR.
The environment in 2015 wasn’t nearly as dire as you make it out to be, GGN was already shitting the bed and the growth of Sky had already effectively stopped. 700++ of us, over 50% of the list voted yes for an opportunity to leave with full pay to the big leagues. The remaining 30% of yes votes were only concerned with keeping their DBs and A scale and couldn’t care less about the ones coming behind or we would have worked out some language for PML 2.0 when we signed it.


That same cadre of left behinds are the ones now trying to leverage the career progression of the post 2015 hires for more big gains for themselves.

My stomach is in knots for the Post 2015 Jazz hires who only went there for a path to the show who’s future is now in limbo as precious seniority slips away at an alarming rate. If we drag this out for 6 more months that’s 450 numbers lost, that could mean an entirely different career for pilots hired at Jazz with a promise of progression.

Sharklasers… my Mom told me to never say anything bad about someone you don’t know or have never met, make your own conclusions about them. The stuff spewing out of your mouth is nothing short of what my dog leaves on our lawn every morning…OMG

A quick peak back at your post history gleefully cheerleading the AO lawsuit and the idea of Jazz pilots operating the LCC now known as rouge tell me all I need to know about your status as Jazz old guard.

I am not concerned with the fact I have offended your sensibilities as much as I am concerned with Original Jazz pilot MEC members playing chicken with junior members careers and progression.

From an old guard perspective it makes sense though, there is absolutely no downside for themselves and potentially unlimited upside.

[rudder]

Again can you elaborate how that helps AC pilots? Why should they give two shits about the revolving door regional airline that exists purely to drive costs down for flying small jets/turboprops. (And on that note why would the company even want more expensive mainline pilots flying regional jets?)

Most of which are planes that used to fly at Air Canada. We sold away our own flying and good jobs along with it. Instead of building Yos flying a CRJ at AC like the old guys did that 3-5 years at Jazz now means nothing. We're our own worst enemies.

"It's only 5 Q400s at the island"

Look at the history.

AC has sent 40 fins to Jazz that used to be flown by pilots on the mainline seniority list (25 CRJ/ 15 E175).

[Sharklasers]

Again can you elaborate how that helps AC pilots? Why should they give two shits about the revolving door regional airline that exists purely to drive costs down for flying small jets/turboprops. (And on that note why would the company even want more expensive mainline pilots flying regional jets?)

Most of which are planes that used to fly at Air Canada. We sold away our own flying and good jobs along with it. Instead of building Yos flying a CRJ at AC like the old guys did that 3-5 years at Jazz now means nothing. We're our own worst enemies.

"It's only 5 Q400s at the island"

Look at the history.

AC has sent 40 fins to Jazz that used to be flown by pilots on the mainline seniority list (25 CRJ/ 15 E175).

I can’t debate you in the EMJ front but to be fair AC originally scooped that CRJs from the regionals by rolling out a punishing pay scale to undercut the regionals and no one wanted to fly it in either seat at the mainline. Those aircraft never should have been at mainline and while it’s before my time it seems we shouldn’t have given up bargaining capital to secure that flying.

[rudder]

Look at the history.

AC has sent 40 fins to Jazz that used to be flown by pilots on the mainline seniority list (25 CRJ/ 15 E175).

I can’t debate you in the EMJ front but to be fair AC originally scooped that CRJs from the regionals by rolling out a punishing pay scale to undercut the regionals and no one wanted to fly it in either seat at the mainline. Those aircraft never should have been at mainline and while it’s before my time it seems we shouldn’t have given up bargaining capital to secure that flying.

That was during the ‘No jets’ era of scope.

This was despite the fact that the regionals had been flying F28’s and 146’s since the 1980’s.

The pendulum always swings too far in the opposite direction. And oddly, the Pilot profession is never the winner. I wonder why that is?

We fight with each other and management just sits back and watches. Always predictable. Not the best strategy for success.

[We_tu_lo]

I’m talking about fixing the whole AC/Jazz whipsaw mess now before this ridiculous LOA thing starts

So how does that play out for those who just want to remain at Jazz, earn a reasonable income and not chase the "big iron" ?

Lol, "reasonable income" at jazz. There is nothing reasonable about it.

[canadian_aviator_4]

Jazz is 2 companies. Pre 2015, with DB pension and other benefits. And post 2015, which is set up or was set up to send pilots to ac and motivate to leave with poor pay and reduced benefits compared to their senior colleagues.

[Inverted2]

Jazz is 2 companies. Pre 2015, with DB pension and other benefits. And post 2015, which is set up or was set up to send pilots to ac and motivate to leave with poor pay and reduced benefits compared to their senior colleagues.

Aside from the pension there isn’t much difference in benefits from pre/post 2015. I was hired pre 2015 and the new hire pay wasn’t any better then. Stuff just cost less way back when.

Also upgrades took 10-20 years depending on base 15 years ago as well. A new hire now will make more since they can get a left seat almost immediately.

****** I’m not defending the pay, it sucks. I’m just pointing out it was never really great in the past*****

[canadian_aviator_4]

Honestly, good point about the quick upgrade . Agreed!

[rudder]

Honestly, good point about the quick upgrade . Agreed!

Minimum pay for CA on a 76-78 seat aircraft should be $100k. In all cases an ATP qualified FO should make at least 66.67% of same year CA. And $100k in 2022 is with a heck of a lot less than $100k a decade ago.

By any measure, Jazz pay starting pay scales are deficient regardless of rapid upgrade opportunity. And the ‘quid pro quo’ of movement to AC is turning in to a ‘quid pro what’?

Band aid solutions. That is all that is being considered by Jazz, AC, and (perhaps) ACPA. Not nearly enough to create stability or adapt to 2022 realities when it comes to pilot supply.

[daedalusx]

Honestly, good point about the quick upgrade . Agreed!

Minimum pay for CA on a 76-78 seat aircraft should be $100k. In all cases an ATP qualified FO should make at least 66.67% of same year CA. And $100k in 2022 is with a heck of a lot less than $100k a decade ago.

By any measure, Jazz pay starting pay scales are deficient regardless of rapid upgrade opportunity. And the ‘quid pro quo’ of movement to AC is turning in to a ‘quid pro what’?

Band aid solutions. That is all that is being considered by Jazz, AC, and (perhaps) ACPA. Not nearly enough to create stability or adapt to 2022 realities when it comes to pilot supply.

Agreed and it’s not like 100K is even an obscene wage in 2022, especially considering you’ll have to work out of the 4 most expensive cities in Canada (YYZ, YVR, YYC and YUL)

[Goodman5]

Jazz is 2 companies. Pre 2015, with DB pension and other benefits. And post 2015, which is set up or was set up to send pilots to ac and motivate to leave with poor pay and reduced benefits compared to their senior colleagues.

Aside from the pension there isn’t much difference in benefits from pre/post 2015. I was hired pre 2015 and the new hire pay wasn’t any better then. Stuff just cost less way back when.

Also upgrades took 10-20 years depending on base 15 years ago as well. A new hire now will make more since they can get a left seat almost immediately.

****** I’m not defending the pay, it sucks. I’m just pointing out it was never really great in the past*****

-Isn’t much difference? First off, the different pension is a huge slap in the face to everyone hired after 2015.

-Another slap in the face is the difference in pay for the first 6 years before a pilot ‘scales’ back up to first class citizen rate.. or ‘A scale.’ (A scale - B scale was the most open trashing of “new” pilots coming to Jazz by the way. You guys just never think how much that’s pissed off your co workers)

-Slapped us in the face with flight passes, passes for life, J class etc.

One of those things that you call ‘stuff’ that cost cheaper 10-20 years ago for you… is a house/rent. Which has doubled/tripled in that time yet you have the gall to say our 2022 pay is comparable to say, 2009.. even 2014.

C’mon pal.

[cdnavater]

Jazz is 2 companies. Pre 2015, with DB pension and other benefits. And post 2015, which is set up or was set up to send pilots to ac and motivate to leave with poor pay and reduced benefits compared to their senior colleagues.

Aside from the pension there isn’t much difference in benefits from pre/post 2015. I was hired pre 2015 and the new hire pay wasn’t any better then. Stuff just cost less way back when.

Also upgrades took 10-20 years depending on base 15 years ago as well. A new hire now will make more since they can get a left seat almost immediately.

****** I’m not defending the pay, it sucks. I’m just pointing out it was never really great in the past*****

-Isn’t much difference? First off, the different pension is a huge slap in the face to everyone hired after 2015.

-Another slap in the face is the difference in pay for the first 6 years before a pilot ‘scales’ back up to first class citizen rate.. or ‘A scale.’ (A scale - B scale was the most open trashing of “new” pilots coming to Jazz by the way. You guys just never think how much that’s pissed off your co workers)

-Slapped us in the face with flight passes, passes for life, J class etc.

One of those things that you call ‘stuff’ that cost cheaper 10-20 years ago for you… is a house/rent. Which has doubled/tripled in that time yet you have the gall to say our 2022 pay is comparable to say, 2009.. even 2014.

C’mon pal.

Goodman,
You seem angry, will you be angry at AC as well, after all they have a different pension for new hires there too!

AC makes the decision on passes, for example in 2011 they changed the passes for pilots hired after 2006 to C4. Someone who was already on the property for over four years went from C2 to C4 overnight, I was one of those somebody’s! The trigger for this was Jazz pilots voting to strike, the biggest improvements went to the starting pay. Our reward for our efforts, Sky Regional and GGN undercutting us.

As for the pay, the contract 2015 triggered movement, before that there was none. Pilots going to AC from Jazz was a trickle and never mind the left seat, as mentioned 10-20 years depending on base. We knew that coming in and accepted the terms, since then there have been many changes but all the bargaining capital, what little we had, has gone to making it better for the new hires, so pardon me if I don’t feel bad for you, I’m still working on the contract from 2010 with little to no improvements for the top scale, but I should just be happy I suppose!

[Inverted2]

Jazz is 2 companies. Pre 2015, with DB pension and other benefits. And post 2015, which is set up or was set up to send pilots to ac and motivate to leave with poor pay and reduced benefits compared to their senior colleagues.

Aside from the pension there isn’t much difference in benefits from pre/post 2015. I was hired pre 2015 and the new hire pay wasn’t any better then. Stuff just cost less way back when.

Also upgrades took 10-20 years depending on base 15 years ago as well. A new hire now will make more since they can get a left seat almost immediately.

****** I’m not defending the pay, it sucks. I’m just pointing out it was never really great in the past*****

-Isn’t much difference? First off, the different pension is a huge slap in the face to everyone hired after 2015.

-Another slap in the face is the difference in pay for the first 6 years before a pilot ‘scales’ back up to first class citizen rate.. or ‘A scale.’ (A scale - B scale was the most open trashing of “new” pilots coming to Jazz by the way. You guys just never think how much that’s pissed off your co workers)

-Slapped us in the face with flight passes, passes for life, J class etc.

One of those things that you call ‘stuff’ that cost cheaper 10-20 years ago for you… is a house/rent. Which has doubled/tripled in that time yet you have the gall to say our 2022 pay is comparable to say, 2009.. even 2014.

C’mon pal.

Bud, seriously…... No one has DB pensions now unless you want to go work for the government. Also the pass priority is not set by Jazz but by AC. They decided that new hires sit in economy. Our union tried to get it changed. You guys should direct your anger towards AC if you don’t like the PML and the Passes.

[rudder]

DB pensions are for career employees. How many pilots that come to Jazz plan on retiring at Jazz? Focus should be on enhancing the replacement plan just as the mainline pilots have done.

PML (or whatever the latest incarnation is called) - hundreds and hundreds of Jazz pilots have taken advantage of it. Focus should be on making sure that hundreds more can take advantage of it.

Pass priority - was this subject raised by any candidate at the Jazz interview? Or AC interview? AC decided to grandfather former subsidiary employees. Not sure there is a legal basis for that but it was a policy that was applied to all former subsidiary staff, not just at Jazz.

The one thing that Jazz pilots can and should alter is the pay grid. Starting pay is an embarrassment to the industry. A change in this regard benefits all pilots that come to Jazz whether their stay is short or long.

Bargaining is about leverage and priorities. Not everything can have equal priority.

[Inverted2]

Yes I was going to mention that. If your goal is AC why do you care about the pension if you’re only going to be at lousy Jazz for 2 or 3 years? News flash: AC new hire pension isn’t much better! You millennials better bring your concerns up at your interviews from now on.

[Ash Ketchum]

If this AC vote doesn't pass I wonder if they will resume hiring Jazz pilots or if they will hold out longer. This would be a big hit to the already low morale of many Jazz pilots patiently waiting to go to AC.

[rudder]

If this AC vote doesn't pass I wonder if they will resume hiring Jazz pilots or if they will hold out longer. This would be a big hit to the already low morale of many Jazz pilots patiently waiting to go to AC.

AC has suspended hiring from Jazz because likely Jazz has told AC that it cannot staff it’s schedule factoring in attrition to AC. Attrition to AC is the only attrition destination that can be controlled.

The question here should be directed to Jazz. Why can’t you hire and train enough pilots to cover attrition?

[Ash Ketchum]

If this AC vote doesn't pass I wonder if they will resume hiring Jazz pilots or if they will hold out longer. This would be a big hit to the already low morale of many Jazz pilots patiently waiting to go to AC.

AC has suspended hiring from Jazz because likely Jazz has told AC that it cannot staff it’s schedule factoring in attrition to AC. Attrition to AC is the only attrition destination that can be controlled.

The question here should be directed to Jazz. Why can’t you hire and train enough pilots to cover attrition?

Exactly, I guess if the AC vote is a yes then Jazz can depend on the LOAs from AC so they will be more likely to allow AC to keep taking Jazz pilots.

[rudder]

If this AC vote doesn't pass I wonder if they will resume hiring Jazz pilots or if they will hold out longer. This would be a big hit to the already low morale of many Jazz pilots patiently waiting to go to AC.

AC has suspended hiring from Jazz because likely Jazz has told AC that it cannot staff it’s schedule factoring in attrition to AC. Attrition to AC is the only attrition destination that can be controlled.

The question here should be directed to Jazz. Why can’t you hire and train enough pilots to cover attrition?

Exactly, I guess if the AC vote is a yes then Jazz can depend on the LOAs from AC so they will be more likely to allow AC to keep taking Jazz pilots.

So let’s drill down on this.

Jazz has known since late winter/early spring 2022 that flow to AC would resume.

Demographics (seniority) indicate that majority of flow candidates will be CA.

Jazz runs a bid and discovers that there will be many unfilled CA spots due no-bid ATPL or no qualified FO (commercial licence only). The latter is a self-inflicted condition. Decisions had been made in 2018 onwards to hire many low time pilots as FO. COVID stagnated their ability to accrue experience towards ATPL hours.

Jazz attempts to attract DEC candidates with appropriate qualification. Mixed results. Also, cannot force an ATPL new-hire to bid for a CA vacancy. Many choose not to as no job security protection while on probation.

Several Jazz PIT courses either cancelled or run below (anticipated) capacity.

So the question is - are there solutions other than suspending flow (which is a violation of the Jazz CBA) that might mitigate the apparent inability to hire and train enough qualified (DEC or upgradeable) candidates?

Of course there are. How about starting with offering competitive pay commensurate with experience and the marketplace?

Flow is the secondary problem. But it is being used as a smoke screen for the real underlying problem. And the failure to honour flow is creating a massive PR problem in attracting pilots simply exacerbating the shortfall.

Jazz cannot pretend to exist in a pilot labour supply vacuum any more than AC can. But the challenge will manifest (and already has) at Jazz in a much more immediate fashion.

Prospective pilot employees have many options. You don’t want to be the ‘backup’ choice. You should strive to be the first choice.

[kiaszceski]

AC has suspended hiring from Jazz because likely Jazz has told AC that it cannot staff it’s schedule factoring in attrition to AC. Attrition to AC is the only attrition destination that can be controlled.

The question here should be directed to Jazz. Why can’t you hire and train enough pilots to cover attrition?

Exactly, I guess if the AC vote is a yes then Jazz can depend on the LOAs from AC so they will be more likely to allow AC to keep taking Jazz pilots.

Jazz attempts to attract DEC candidates with appropriate qualification. Mixed results. Also, cannot force an ATPL new-hire to bid for a CA vacancy. Many choose not to as no job security protection while on probation.

Interesting, so those DEC new hires may be in a stressful situation if they don’t pass the training… command course is a another story compared to a Fo training and lineindoc.

[Turboprops]

Interesting, so those DEC new hires may be in a stressful situation if they don’t pass the training… command course is a another story compared to a Fo training and lineindoc.

There has already been at least one failed out DEC, said person was not given a FO spot, terminated upon failure of PIC assessment

[RockSalty]

W

Interesting, so those DEC new hires may be in a stressful situation if they don’t pass the training… command course is a another story compared to a Fo training and lineindoc.

There has already been at least one failed out DEC, said person was not given a FO spot, terminated upon failure of PIC assessment

Are you talking about the ~2000 hour instructor?