ACPA LOA?

[FL030]

For all the punters, the vote result was 80% No.

[We_tu_lo]

Time to dust off my resume and get ready to leave jazz!

Gunning for Encore's new flow agreement with air Canada?

[daedalusx]

Props are for boats. It’s all about the JZA -> Flair -> AC pipeline now.

[Caterpillar]

Jazz here, who's seriously wondering if he should jump ship to Flair.

[Transition9er2]

Jazz here, who's seriously wondering if he should jump ship to Flair.

Best thing you can do right now is just hold off on doing anything until we see what happens next.

This vote quite literally just put the ball back in the laps of management to decide what happens next.

AC has lofty goals and targets for 2023. We just got in the way of that. It’s their move to decide if they throw their planned flying down the drain to teach the pilots a lesson, or they come back to the table.

Too many airlines are putting out trial balloons to their pilot groups (sunwing most recently) in hopes they can get us to agree to crumbs while they have massive plans behind the scenes. But we’re finally rejecting their offers.

My guess is you’re on the cusp of coming over to AC so you likely have good seniority. Ultimately, do what’s best for you and your career progression. But IMO, give it another 3-6 months to get more answers before contemplating a move and starting all over again.

Some food for thought.

[bcflyer]

People! Take a breath. The results have been out for 2hrs. A wee bit premature to start looking at jumping ship. Jazz still has a signed contract that lays out how many pilots must be hired by AC. Give it a bit of time to see what the reaction by the company is.

[daedalusx]

Jazz here, who's seriously wondering if he should jump ship to Flair.

Best thing you can do right now is just hold off on doing anything until we see what happens next.

This vote quite literally just put the ball back in the laps of management to decide what happens next.

AC has lofty goals and targets for 2023. We just got in the way of that. It’s their move to decide if they throw their planned flying down the drain to teach the pilots a lesson, or they come back to the table.

Too many airlines are putting out trial balloons to their pilot groups (sunwing most recently) in hopes they can get us to agree to crumbs while they have massive plans behind the scenes. But we’re finally rejecting their offers.

My guess is you’re on the cusp of coming over to AC so you likely have good seniority. Ultimately, do what’s best for you and your career progression. But IMO, give it another 3-6 months to get more answers before contemplating a move and starting all over again.

Some food for thought.

All joking aside, that’s the smart answer here if you’re at Jazz and can pay your bills. For all you know, by the time you get to Flair and get your line indoc completed, there will be a much better flow deal for the Jazz folks.

Especially if you’re a Captain. Jazz has a much harder time replacing skippers than 250hr wonders. Good things will come out of this.

[Dockjock]

Air Canada could corner the supply on pilots in the country with a realistic investment in the contract. They could disconnect the me-too of other labour groups permanently in the same way (aside from AME’s who are also in high demand). It would hurt/kill some of the smaller competitors without waking the competition bureau. But it would take a serious change in management mindset and I doubt the current group is capable of it.

[lownslow]

Jazz here, who's seriously wondering if he should jump ship to Flair.

Best thing you can do right now is just hold off on doing anything until we see what happens next.

I disagree. I say update that resume today while you’re mad then sleep on it before committing to shop it around. Literal worst case scenario is tomorrow morning you’ll have an up to date resume, which is always handy.

[JHR]

You no-voters have just done the rest of the industry a big favour. Thank you!

[canadian_aviator_4]

Consideration of leaving jazz is very legitimate. Especially with %100 OTS hiring currently happening, and no indication if it will continue into November. I would like to stay positive too and hope in 3-6 months an active effort by all concerned parties is made to provide a definitive answer to the ‘flow’ issue: Either it continues or is scrapped. The sooner we know the sooner we can make important career decisions.

A lot of anxiety is also coming from the uncertainty as no one knows or is providing any idea of the future of flow at jazz.

[bcflyer]

Consideration of leaving jazz is very legitimate. Especially with %100 OTS hiring currently happening, and no indication if it will continue into November. I would like to stay positive too and hope in 3-6 months an active effort by all concerned parties is made to provide a definitive answer to the ‘flow’ issue: Either it continues or is scrapped. The sooner we know the sooner we can make important career decisions.

A lot of anxiety is also coming from the uncertainty as no one knows or is providing any idea of the future of flow at jazz.

Flow won’t be scrapped without HUGE payouts to the affected Jazz pilots. It’s in the contract. It was what sold many pilots on signing the long term deal that A/C wanted. I highly doubt they’ll let AC off the hook very easily.
A/C needs the problem fixed. They need pilots but they can’t currently hire from Jazz because they need the CPA flying covered and Jazz doesn’t have enough Captains to sustain the losses to AC. If they continue to hire OTS like they are doing then Jazz becomes less desirable, less pilots come and AC still can’t get the CPA flying covered. Add to the mix the fact that the flow through is in the Jazz contract and as such is subject to grievances (and possibly very large payouts if they don’t meet the 60%) and you can see that one way or another it will get fixed. Personally I think both pilot groups have quite a bit of leverage right now.

[flyingcanuck]

Consideration of leaving jazz is very legitimate. Especially with %100 OTS hiring currently happening, and no indication if it will continue into November. I would like to stay positive too and hope in 3-6 months an active effort by all concerned parties is made to provide a definitive answer to the ‘flow’ issue: Either it continues or is scrapped. The sooner we know the sooner we can make important career decisions.

A lot of anxiety is also coming from the uncertainty as no one knows or is providing any idea of the future of flow at jazz.

Flow won’t be scrapped without HUGE payouts to the affected Jazz pilots. It’s in the contract. It was what sold many pilots on signing the long term deal that A/C wanted. I highly doubt they’ll let AC off the hook very easily.
A/C needs the problem fixed. They need pilots but they can’t currently hire from Jazz because they need the CPA flying covered and Jazz doesn’t have enough Captains to sustain the losses to AC. If they continue to hire OTS like they are doing then Jazz becomes less desirable, less pilots come and AC still can’t get the CPA flying covered. Add to the mix the fact that the flow through is in the Jazz contract and as such is subject to grievances (and possibly very large payouts if they don’t meet the 60%) and you can see that one way or another it will get fixed. Personally I think both pilot groups have quite a bit of leverage right now.

The issue to me, one of those jazzies, is this process could take years meanwhile affecting our careers.. that's the stressful part.

[bcflyer]

Consideration of leaving jazz is very legitimate. Especially with %100 OTS hiring currently happening, and no indication if it will continue into November. I would like to stay positive too and hope in 3-6 months an active effort by all concerned parties is made to provide a definitive answer to the ‘flow’ issue: Either it continues or is scrapped. The sooner we know the sooner we can make important career decisions.

A lot of anxiety is also coming from the uncertainty as no one knows or is providing any idea of the future of flow at jazz.

Flow won’t be scrapped without HUGE payouts to the affected Jazz pilots. It’s in the contract. It was what sold many pilots on signing the long term deal that A/C wanted. I highly doubt they’ll let AC off the hook very easily.
A/C needs the problem fixed. They need pilots but they can’t currently hire from Jazz because they need the CPA flying covered and Jazz doesn’t have enough Captains to sustain the losses to AC. If they continue to hire OTS like they are doing then Jazz becomes less desirable, less pilots come and AC still can’t get the CPA flying covered. Add to the mix the fact that the flow through is in the Jazz contract and as such is subject to grievances (and possibly very large payouts if they don’t meet the 60%) and you can see that one way or another it will get fixed. Personally I think both pilot groups have quite a bit of leverage right now.

The issue to me, one of those jazzies, is this process could take years meanwhile affecting our careers.. that's the stressful part.

I get where you are coming from but AC needs to fill those spots before next summer. If they can’t find enough OTS guys (and it looks like they can’t) they’ll need to fix the Jazz issue sooner rather than later.

[canadian_aviator_4]

The delay is setting jazz pilots back a significant number of spots in seniority. The longer the delay the worse it is. All the while unions and management drag their feet. I’m sure nothing will be resolved for quite a while, seeing how little has been done so far. And how no one seems to have any idea regarding reinstating AC hiring.

[RippleRock]

We have been betrayed by our MEC Chairman Gary Russel. I personally voted for him on his election platform. FAIL. He needs to resign.

He can take his unbelievably inept negotiating team of Dumb and Dumber with him. They are equally useless.

He and all the union members who recommended this DUD to the Membership need to head back to the line. This childishness needs to stop.

Say NO to MOA v.2.0 I promise you they are already working on it.

ACPA has lost our trust permanently. 80% of us are sick of the concession games.

[altiplano]

We have been betrayed by our MEC Chairman Gary Russel. I personally voted for him on his election platform. FAIL. He needs to resign.

He can take his unbelievably inept negotiating team of Dumb and Dumber with him. They are equally useless.

He and all the union members who recommended this DUD to the Membership need to head back to the line. This childishness needs to stop.

Say NO to MOA v.2.0 I promise you they are already working on it.

ACPA has lost our trust permanently. 80% of us are sick of the concession games.

Fuçk yeah. Send them packing.

The supporting MEC members are company bros.

NC "dumb and dumber" is perfect.

The ship has turned, time to cut the dead weight.

[rudder]

An 80% fail is an epic fail.

The ‘secret’ ballot that happened on the ACPA MEC must reveal who voted for, and who voted against, the MOA.

It is a given that the negotiators are now without any legitimacy in the eyes of AC. Perhaps also true of the leadership.

And AC must now face a new reality - a combative pilot group.

Dirty deals get done. The powerbrokers think they run the world. Thankfully, in this instance the membership had the final say.

This MOA does not need a ‘tweak’. It was rotten to the core. Throw it out. Reconstitute the NC after the duly elected reps take their seats. Set an agenda. Then communicate with the employer.

AC has no leverage and no right to force MOA bargaining. And it appears to have no dance partner on the concession train that has been running for many, many years.

[Rooster69]

An 80% fail is an epic fail.

The ‘secret’ ballot that happened on the ACPA MEC must reveal who voted for, and who voted against, the MOA.

It is a given that the negotiators are now without any legitimacy in the eyes of AC. Perhaps also true of the leadership.

And AC must now face a new reality - a combative pilot group.

Dirty deals get done. The powerbrokers think they run the world. Thankfully, in this instance the membership had the final say.

This MOA does not need a ‘tweak’. It was rotten to the core. Throw it out. Reconstitute the NC after the duly elected reps take their seats. Set an agenda. Then communicate with the employer.

AC has no leverage and no right to force MOA bargaining. And it appears to have no dance partner on the concession train that has been running for many, many years.

Please, throw your name for the negotiating committee!

[WellThatAgedWell]

The best way to AC now is probably transat. This deal is most likely to come back, jazz pilots agreement won’t be honoured. Is transat hiring?

[bcflyer]

The best way to AC now is probably transat. This deal is most likely to come back, jazz pilots agreement won’t be honoured. Is transat hiring?

This rumour again? Why would AC buy Transat? Investors look for stability. Especially in times of economic uncertainty. Buying another airline with all the related headaches is not something AC needs right now.

[schnitzel2k3]

Congrats guys on the unity, good luck at the bargaining table. The industry is behind you! Go get all the gainz.

[hithere]

The Transat deal was blocked by the European anti-competition commission. It is literally impossible to resurrect.

[sanjet]

The Transat deal was blocked by the European anti-competition commission. It is literally impossible to resurrect.

Not to mention both companies are in completely difference shape as compared to before.

[YC87DRVR]

Congrats guys on the unity, good luck at the bargaining table. The industry is behind you! Go get all the gainz.

+1

Go get what you guys deserve and have missed out on for years. Unfortunately for the Jazz pilots they made their bed when they voted in that 17 year deal, time for them to lay in it.