ACPA LOA?

[Transition9er2]

Congrats guys on the unity, good luck at the bargaining table. The industry is behind you! Go get all the gainz.

+1

Go get what you guys deserve and have missed out on for years. Unfortunately for the Jazz pilots they made their bed when they voted in that 17 year deal, time for them to lay in it.

No I disagree with this. I was at jazz when the contract went through and it was forced down our throats pretty hard. I know A LOT of junior pilots who voted no, myself included. That being said, to watch the contract turn into an absolute dumpster fire warms my cold heart!

Jazz Pilots are in a really good position at the moment to demand change. Collectively they need to start getting vocal with their own union. It’s clear the 60% flow is a BIG issue at the moment, they have an opportunity to leverage that to their advantage.

Good luck to the Jazz pilot group! I certainly hope we see some changes coming your way soon.

But start getting vocal over there. Screen shot your emails to your union and spread them around to as many pilots as you can and encourage them to do the same! Start your own version of VOTE NO.

Be respectful and professional in your emails, but be very clear with your frustrations and questions.

Our industry is waking up. I’m sure you’ll have the support of every pilot group in the country back you on this!

[daedalusx]

No I disagree with this. I was at jazz when the contract went through and it was forced down our throats pretty hard. I know A LOT of junior pilots who voted no, myself included. That being said, to watch the contract turn into an absolute dumpster fire warms my cold heart!

I was there too back then and it absolutely wasn't forced down our throat and anyone with above room temperature IQ knew this was going to happen. There was a massive shortage of pilots, we had all the leverage, there was absolutely no reason to sign a 17 years death warrant. Go read some of the emails from the YYC chair back then. I'm not going to post it on a public forum but they aged really really really well.

[Latitude]

The Transat deal was blocked by the European anti-competition commission. It is literally impossible to resurrect.

With the package AC/TS brought to the European. The EU denied it ‘’ in it’s presented form’’

Never be too sure… a lot have changed and a lot will change in the next few months/years

[rudder]

The Transat deal was blocked by the European anti-competition commission. It is literally impossible to resurrect.

With the package AC/TS brought to the European. The EU denied it ‘’ in it’s presented form’’

Never be too sure… a lot have changed and a lot will change in the next few months/years

AC was told that it would have to reduce combined capacity on the North Atlantic.

They won’t get a different answer if they ask again.

[RRJetPilot]

Funny how these Transat rumours always surface at concessionary votes from the YUL FB page. If anyone actually read the EU decision and demands Transat would never be mentioned again.

[Transition9er2]

No I disagree with this. I was at jazz when the contract went through and it was forced down our throats pretty hard. I know A LOT of junior pilots who voted no, myself included. That being said, to watch the contract turn into an absolute dumpster fire warms my cold heart!

I was there too back then and it absolutely wasn't forced down our throat and anyone with above room temperature IQ knew this was going to happen. There was a massive shortage of pilots, we had all the leverage, there was absolutely no reason to sign a 17 years death warrant. Go read some of the emails from the YYC chair back then. I'm not going to post it on a public forum but they aged really really really well.

My memory is full of big CB doing his roadshows telling everyone if we vote no to the deal there is a very real possibility CR would do everything in his power to shut down Jazz entirely as a result. He used all the examples of Sky and GGN to make his point. Then whenever he was pressed with a legitimate question he’d throw his hands up and say “well, then vote no and see what happens. It’s a big gamble in my opinion”

I lost all respect for CB with how he presented that deal. IMO, he sold the contract hard.

[Dash.Trash]

Consideration of leaving jazz is very legitimate. Especially with %100 OTS hiring currently happening, and no indication if it will continue into November. I would like to stay positive too and hope in 3-6 months an active effort by all concerned parties is made to provide a definitive answer to the ‘flow’ issue: Either it continues or is scrapped. The sooner we know the sooner we can make important career decisions.

A lot of anxiety is also coming from the uncertainty as no one knows or is providing any idea of the future of flow at jazz.

Flow won’t be scrapped without HUGE payouts to the affected Jazz pilots. It’s in the contract. It was what sold many pilots on signing the long term deal that A/C wanted. I highly doubt they’ll let AC off the hook very easily.
A/C needs the problem fixed. They need pilots but they can’t currently hire from Jazz because they need the CPA flying covered and Jazz doesn’t have enough Captains to sustain the losses to AC. If they continue to hire OTS like they are doing then Jazz becomes less desirable, less pilots come and AC still can’t get the CPA flying covered. Add to the mix the fact that the flow through is in the Jazz contract and as such is subject to grievances (and possibly very large payouts if they don’t meet the 60%) and you can see that one way or another it will get fixed. Personally I think both pilot groups have quite a bit of leverage right now.

The issue to me, one of those jazzies, is this process could take years meanwhile affecting our careers.. that's the stressful part.

If your ultimate goal is to get to AC, think about this:

Say you leave for Flair. Put in some time there. Apply at AC and get an interview. How do you think it would go over explaining in an interview why you deserve to be hired by AC, having quit Jazz (causing them to have to replace you, costing them money) to try and skirt around a flow agreement?

Just food for thought.

[DanWEC]

So now that this is quashed, inquiring minds are curious as to how long it might be until another MOA? The flat pay is the only sticking point for a lot of experienced people. Instant recruitment fix. Hash out the Jazz thing later.

[truedude]

Flow won’t be scrapped without HUGE payouts to the affected Jazz pilots. It’s in the contract. It was what sold many pilots on signing the long term deal that A/C wanted. I highly doubt they’ll let AC off the hook very easily.
A/C needs the problem fixed. They need pilots but they can’t currently hire from Jazz because they need the CPA flying covered and Jazz doesn’t have enough Captains to sustain the losses to AC. If they continue to hire OTS like they are doing then Jazz becomes less desirable, less pilots come and AC still can’t get the CPA flying covered. Add to the mix the fact that the flow through is in the Jazz contract and as such is subject to grievances (and possibly very large payouts if they don’t meet the 60%) and you can see that one way or another it will get fixed. Personally I think both pilot groups have quite a bit of leverage right now.

The issue to me, one of those jazzies, is this process could take years meanwhile affecting our careers.. that's the stressful part.

If your ultimate goal is to get to AC, think about this:

Say you leave for Flair. Put in some time there. Apply at AC and get an interview. How do you think it would go over explaining in an interview why you deserve to be hired by AC, having quit Jazz (causing them to have to replace you, costing them money) to try and skirt around a flow agreement?

Just food for thought.

You tell them you had a family to feed, and Jazz wasn't paying enough. Not to mention that flow is not a guarantee job offer, and you needed to protect your career.

[flyinmanzan]

An 80% fail is an epic fail.

The ‘secret’ ballot that happened on the ACPA MEC must reveal who voted for, and who voted against, the MOA.

It is a given that the negotiators are now without any legitimacy in the eyes of AC. Perhaps also true of the leadership.

And AC must now face a new reality - a combative pilot group.

Dirty deals get done. The powerbrokers think they run the world. Thankfully, in this instance the membership had the final say.

This MOA does not need a ‘tweak’. It was rotten to the core. Throw it out. Reconstitute the NC after the duly elected reps take their seats. Set an agenda. Then communicate with the employer.

AC has no leverage and no right to force MOA bargaining. And it appears to have no dance partner on the concession train that has been running for many, many years.

Please, throw your name for the negotiating committee!

Pardon my ignorance, but why are pilots even doing the negotiating? Why not utilize skilled negotiators who do it for a living? I’m sure it’ll cost a pretty penny but probably worth it considering what’s at stake…?

[Dry Guy]

This MOA may go down as the best thing the company/ACPA could have done to unite the pilots for a change. So a big thank you for that!

[bcflyer]

So now that this is quashed, inquiring minds are curious as to how long it might be until another MOA? The flat pay is the only sticking point for a lot of experienced people. Instant recruitment fix. Hash out the Jazz thing later.

Just a guess but I think it might be a bit if at all. Resignations are happening and I can’t see anything happening until they are replaced.

[BingBong]

YUL clean slate & YVR….clean slate!! This train is leaving the station

[RippleRock]

Gary Russell and our CEO can resign for treason and for actions unbecoming of a "guardian of our Constitution".

Dumb and Dumber on the Negotiating Committee need to step aside permanently.

Rob Weiser In YWG needs to be shown the door. Jalmer Johnson needs to exit stage left and never return. Pay JJ and our CEO off to -go away- with our permanently frozen seven figure "strike fund" that's been languishing for a decade in a dusty bank account. We'll be far better off.

Freeze all union negotiating action until the new year at minimum.

Once this is done, we'll finally be getting somewhere. As it stands tonight, it was a good start, but we've a long ways to go yet.

[pseudovector]

Gary Russell and our CEO can resign for treason and for actions unbecoming of a "guardian of our Constitution".

Dumb and Dumber on the Negotiating Committee need to step aside permanently.

Rob Weiser In YWG needs to be shown the door. Jalmer Johnson needs to exit stage left and never return. Pay JJ and our CEO off to -go away- with our permanently frozen seven figure "strike fund" that's been languishing for a decade in a dusty bank account. We'll be far better off.

Freeze all union negotiating action until the new year at minimum.

Once this is done, we'll finally be getting somewhere. As it stands tonight, it was a good start, but we've a long ways to go yet.

Lead the way (anonymous) tough guy. Look forward to seeing you run for a position. (You and Altiplano could give real meaning to ‘dumb and dumber’) Go show ‘em how it’s done!
Just like NC2 did.

[GeoffPilot]

Right back at you random anonymous tough guy

It's actually not that hard

Don't be a sellout like NC1 and then go to management

[RippleRock]

Gary Russell and our CEO can resign for treason and for actions unbecoming of a "guardian of our Constitution".

Dumb and Dumber on the Negotiating Committee need to step aside permanently.

Rob Weiser In YWG needs to be shown the door. Jalmer Johnson needs to exit stage left and never return. Pay JJ and our CEO off to -go away- with our permanently frozen seven figure "strike fund" that's been languishing for a decade in a dusty bank account. We'll be far better off.

Freeze all union negotiating action until the new year at minimum.

Once this is done, we'll finally be getting somewhere. As it stands tonight, it was a good start, but we've a long ways to go yet.

Lead the way (anonymous) tough guy. Look forward to seeing you run for a position. (You and Altiplano could give real meaning to ‘dumb and dumber’) Go show ‘em how it’s done!
Just like NC2 did.

You can thank myself and Alti later.

We have proven year over year that we appreciate and support the concept of unity and fair compensation. We have both been watching the decimation of our contract for 19 years now. It was getting nauseating watching ACPA "part out" a perfectly good contract for shiny baubles.....it was a little wordy, but solid, and valuable.

Piece by piece it was "sold off" by naive "self-proclaimed crusaders" for pittance.....scope erosion, pension erosion, wage erosion, hours worked erosion, reserve rule erosion....I could go on and on, but why bother. The likes of you are still plentiful here, and there's no getting through.

Time for neglectful selfish "representatives" to move along into their management dream roles and make way for those who never stopped believing in a "united pilot body" instead of this freaking nasty divided free-for-all with members split a thousand different ways.

Our fore bearers would be ashamed of what we've allowed to happen. We have done so much damage in 20 years to profession that was 70 years in the making that those before us would surely be rolling in their graves. We have done them no service and dishonored their decades of hard work and sacrifice with our "sell off" attitude. All under the guise of "extracting value". What a joke.

This is one small step in the right direction. Draining the entire swamp is essential but not foregone. Doing better will actually be as easy as FOLLOWING THE CONSTITUTION. A concept so absolutely lost on the last 6 MEC Chairmen and their LEC minions.

[altiplano]

Gary Russell and our CEO can resign for treason and for actions unbecoming of a "guardian of our Constitution".

Dumb and Dumber on the Negotiating Committee need to step aside permanently.

Rob Weiser In YWG needs to be shown the door. Jalmer Johnson needs to exit stage left and never return. Pay JJ and our CEO off to -go away- with our permanently frozen seven figure "strike fund" that's been languishing for a decade in a dusty bank account. We'll be far better off.

Freeze all union negotiating action until the new year at minimum.

Once this is done, we'll finally be getting somewhere. As it stands tonight, it was a good start, but we've a long ways to go yet.

Lead the way (anonymous) tough guy. Look forward to seeing you run for a position. (You and Altiplano could give real meaning to ‘dumb and dumber’) Go show ‘em how it’s done!
Just like NC2 did.

PSEUDOVECTOR

USER STATISTICS
Joined:
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Last active:
Thu Oct 13, 2022 2:09 am
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2

Looks like the shills are reviving an account to lash out a little... Only 2 posts all time by "pseudovector" despite having signed up a year ago.

Both posts are just to lash out against the 80% that sent this POS down the lav.

Looks like you're a TA1 apologist too!

Is that you Mike? Brian? Al? Kevin? Maybe Dan! or Blake!

Whatever... Get stuffed.

[Rooster69]

Now that the twice daily messages on the ACPA app have stopped. Bit of a news vacuum on the union front. Have there been resignations? Is the ACPA headshed standing around with blank stares or are they waiting on a company response?

[Fanblade]

4 resignations.

[rudder]

4 resignations.

MEC? NC?

Isn’t really a resignation if you were voted out already and just finishing term of office.

What about the recalls? Did they figure it out and do the right thing?

[Fanblade]

YVR YUL Chair and Vice resigned

[Rooster69]

Wow. That is a start.

Now if YUL can get candidates to run who aren’t along the same though lines as the outgoing Chairs!

[RippleRock]

I'm thinking the entire YUL ACPA base representation, councilors and all, pulled the plug. Maybe I read it wrong. If so, we know where the 700 "Yes" votes came from.

Good riddance. If an entire base is so detached from reality that it could not see the obvious "sloppiness" and "piss-poor costing" of this proposal, then they have done us all a huge favor by quitting. They were clearly part of the problem.

[RippleRock]

Where is Gary Russell's resignation??

Shame on him for taking so long.

Either address the Membership with a clear explanation of your actions, or exit. Choose one.