Taildragger Noseover/Groundloop Thread

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Re: Taildragger Noseover/Groundloop Thread

Post by digits_ »

photofly wrote: Wed Aug 03, 2022 7:50 am I don't know about anyone else who flies a taildragger, but all I can think of each time I land is to hope I don't end up in this thread. It's quite threatening!
You mean it's.... 'threadening' .... 8)
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Re: Taildragger Noseover/Groundloop Thread

Post by pelmet »

The pilot of C-GPLL, a Bakeng Duce aircraft, was taking off from Runway 07 at Lancaster Airpark
(CLA6), ON and had just become airborne around 1000 feet down the runway when the aircraft
encountered some unexpected wind from the left causing the aircraft to drift right. The pilot
corrected for the right drift and then found the aircraft wanted to drift left then right. The pilot
attempted to correct the drifting and ended up losing control of the aircraft and crashing on the
south side of the runway near the windsock, there were no injuries. The aircrafts right land gear
and tail wheel failed, the right wing was bent and the propeller was damaged.
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Re: Taildragger Noseover/Groundloop Thread

Post by pelmet »

photofly wrote: Wed Aug 03, 2022 7:50 am I don't know about anyone else who flies a taildragger, but all I can think of each time I land is to hope I don't end up in this thread. It's quite threatening!
It can bring home the reality of the increased hazards/less forgiveness of conventional gear aircraft. Unfortunately, we don't typically get much more detail other than the few sentences in the brief reports. But on occasion, it can lead to further discussion and discovery of how an incident can be avoided. There was a reply to one of the incidents last year in which control was lost where we discovered that the pilot was landing a small taildragger in a near 30 knot crosswind.

It did surprise me that the landing was attempted in such a strong crosswind. I think greater level of caution/margin is a good idea when flying taildraggers unless one is on top of their game as they are less forgiving of errors.
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Last edited by pelmet on Thu Aug 11, 2022 3:01 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Taildragger Noseover/Groundloop Thread

Post by TeePeeCreeper »

Pelmet,

Please go back and read what « that » poster wrote.

They landed with a near 30 knot headwind component and then taxied with a nearly 30 knot crosswind component which was « challenging ».

TPC
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Re: Taildragger Noseover/Groundloop Thread

Post by pelmet »

TeePeeCreeper wrote: Wed Aug 10, 2022 10:14 am Pelmet,

Please go back and read what « that » poster wrote.

They landed with a near 30 knot headwind component and then taxied with a nearly 30 knot crosswind component which was « challenging ».

TPC
I was referring to a different incident involving a crosswind landing, which was a reply to a TSB report…..

viewtopic.php?p=1160989#p1160989
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Re: Taildragger Noseover/Groundloop Thread

Post by photofly »

pelmet wrote: Tue Aug 09, 2022 8:41 am
photofly wrote: Wed Aug 03, 2022 7:50 am I don't know about anyone else who flies a taildragger, but all I can think of each time I land is to hope I don't end up in this thread. It's quite threatening!
It can bring home the reality of the increased hazards/less forgiveness of conventional gear aircraft. Unfortunately, we don't typically get much more detail other than the few sentences in the brief reports. But on occasion, it can lead to further discussion and discovery of how an incident can be avoided. There was a reply to one of the incidents last year in which control was lost where we discovered that the pilot was landing a small taildragger in a near 30 knot crosswind.

It did surprise me that the landing was attempted in such a strong crosswind. I think greater level of caution/margin is a good idea when flying taildraggers unless one is on top of their game as they are less forgiving of errors.
A quick scan through this thread doesn't yet reveal a great deal of valuable high level discussion about how to avoid an incident. Are you sure it isn't more about voyeurism and better-than-thou posturing about other pilots' choices and abilities? Would you at least consider carefully that it might look so, to anyone reading your reports?

Aren't there only just a few ways for a taildragger to nose-over or groundloop, and only just a few ways to avoid it? Have they not already been covered, in four pages of accident reports so far? Or are you hoping that one more report will elicit just exactly the response to finally teach us all the technique that we just haven't quite learned yet?
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Re: Taildragger Noseover/Groundloop Thread

Post by pelmet »

photofly wrote: Thu Aug 11, 2022 11:36 am
pelmet wrote: Tue Aug 09, 2022 8:41 am
photofly wrote: Wed Aug 03, 2022 7:50 am I don't know about anyone else who flies a taildragger, but all I can think of each time I land is to hope I don't end up in this thread. It's quite threatening!
It can bring home the reality of the increased hazards/less forgiveness of conventional gear aircraft. Unfortunately, we don't typically get much more detail other than the few sentences in the brief reports. But on occasion, it can lead to further discussion and discovery of how an incident can be avoided. There was a reply to one of the incidents last year in which control was lost where we discovered that the pilot was landing a small taildragger in a near 30 knot crosswind.

It did surprise me that the landing was attempted in such a strong crosswind. I think greater level of caution/margin is a good idea when flying taildraggers unless one is on top of their game as they are less forgiving of errors.
A quick scan through this thread doesn't yet reveal a great deal of valuable high level discussion about how to avoid an incident. Are you sure it isn't more about voyeurism and better-than-thou posturing about other pilots' choices and abilities? Would you at least consider carefully that it might look so, to anyone reading your reports?

Aren't there only just a few ways for a taildragger to nose-over or groundloop, and only just a few ways to avoid it? Have they not already been covered, in four pages of accident reports so far? Or are you hoping that one more report will elicit just exactly the response to finally teach us all the technique that we just haven't quite learned yet?
What is considered valuable can vary from person to person. PilotDAR has made many valuable posts on this forum and as I went through this thread from the beginning, I found some information that could be valuable to a pilot just starting their tail wheel training in just the second post.

Perhaps they will ask more about it before legally operating a conventional gear aircraft in Canada alone with no previous experience. It is easyy to lose touch with how little new pilots know aa one’s hours rack up.

All that being said, this is an accident forum where people post about accident/incidents. There is frequently no high level discussion on many of these threads that are started.

I created several threads on certain types of accidents as a way to avoid(using this thread as an example) dozens of single post threads.

Even if there is no further high level discussion, using this thread as an example could make it very easy for someone interested in finding out some info about what sort of situations are involved in tailwheel incidents instead of having to make much more effort.

It seems to make me more cautious as I delayed a tailwheel flight just this week due to winds. Best to be conservative, even though it is creating other inconveniences.

I’m sorry you feel threatened by this but perhaps that could somehow be a good thing. Concerned would be better.

You mention that because the ways to have an incident on a taildragger have been covered negating the need for further posting of incidents. Should we consider that for all incidents as most have been coved in this forum over the years. We could just shut it down.
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Last edited by pelmet on Thu Aug 11, 2022 12:52 pm, edited 4 times in total.
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Re: Taildragger Noseover/Groundloop Thread

Post by photofly »

pelmet wrote: Thu Aug 11, 2022 12:34 pm It seems to make me more cautious as I delayed a tailwheel flight just this week due to winds. Best to be conservative, even though it is creating other inconveniences.
You created a thread about accidents in order to persuade yourself not to fly in winds you didn't like? I guess if that's really what it takes, then it has a valid purpose.
I’m sorry you feel threatened by it.
Me too.
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Re: Taildragger Noseover/Groundloop Thread

Post by pelmet »

photofly wrote: Thu Aug 11, 2022 12:42 pm
pelmet wrote: Thu Aug 11, 2022 12:34 pm It seems to make me more cautious as I delayed a tailwheel flight just this week due to winds. Best to be conservative, even though it is creating other inconveniences.
You created a thread about accidents in order to persuade yourself not to fly in winds you didn't like? I guess if that's really what it takes, then it has a valid purpose.
'
I think I told you why I created the thread. Based on the responses i see, I have also come to the conclusion that the high level discussion for accident prevention will almost certainly not come from you. That's fine, you are welcome to continue reading if you choose. I will keenly await the input of Mr. Dar and others.
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Re: Taildragger Noseover/Groundloop Thread

Post by pelmet »

C-GNTM, an Air Tractor AT-802 operated by Forest Protection Limited, was conducting fire
suppression training flights about 20 nm southwest of Fredericton (CYFC), NB. It was planned to
have the aircraft land at Brockway (CCX3) Airport, NB for fuel, and as the aircraft touched down on
Runway 22 at CCX3, the aircraft began to drift to the left. The pilot applied right rudder, and when
the yaw to the left continued, the pilot began adding right brake pedal pressure in an attempt to
arrest the left yaw. It was not possible for the pilot to arrest the left yaw with right rudder and brake
pedal force, and the left yaw increased until the aircraft nose was 90 degrees left, relative to the
runway. The tailwheel pylon separated during the skid to the left, and the aircraft came to rest with
the main landing gear off of the runway surface. The pilot was uninjured.

The left mainwheel tire was found deflated due to a shredded patch in the center of the tread. The
tire came off its wheel bead, and allowed the wheel rim to cause minor gouging damage to the chip
seal runway surface. A small amount of fuel vented onto the runway surface. The landing
conditions for runway were described as a light, right crosswind.
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Re: Taildragger Noseover/Groundloop Thread

Post by pelmet »

C-FRZK, a Rocking Star Adventures Ltd. Piper PA-18-150, was conducting VFR operations in
support of a hunting camp in the Nisling River area of the Yukon. During a landing on a gravel bar
on the Nisling River, the left wing contacted a stump and the aircraft veered left. During heavy
braking the tail came up and the aircraft came to rest on its nose. The aircraft sustained damage to
the left wing and propeller. The pilot, who was the sole occupant, was uninjured.
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Re: Taildragger Noseover/Groundloop Thread

Post by pelmet »

C-GKKB, a Kenn Borek Air Ltd. Douglas DC-3C Basler BT-67 was conducting a positioning flight
under instruments flight rules (IFR) from Brownsville/South Padre Island Intl. (KBRO), TX to
Liberia/Daniel Oduber Quirós Intl. (MRLB), Costa Rica. After RNAV approach runway 25, engines'
throttles were brought to idle just before touchdown. After uneventful touchdown, aircraft
decelerated normally, and the tail came down. Flight crew introduced beta as they thought the tail
was down and the aircraft started veering to the right. PF applied more left beta and left brakes
with no effect and the aircraft continued to veer harder right. The aircraft started skidding and
veered off runway into soft grassy field. Aircraft came to a stop 10 feet from the edge of runway.
There was no damage to aircraft and no injuries. Aircraft was inspected with no defect noted by
maintenance.
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Re: Taildragger Noseover/Groundloop Thread

Post by pelmet »

C-FYCS, a privately registered Cessna A185E equipped with conventional landing gear, was
conducting a flight from Springhouse Airpark (CAQ4), BC, to Williams Lake Airport (CYWL), BC,
with 1 pilot onboard. During the touchdown on runway 30, the tailwheel began to shimmy and the
pilot pushed the control column forward to lift the tailwheel off the ground. The shimmy stopped
and the pilot pulled the control column back. The tailwheel touched the ground for the second time
and the aircraft immediately entered a ground loop to the right. The left wheel and tailwheel broke
free of the aircraft and the left wingtip contacted the runway. The aircraft came to a stop facing the
opposite direction on the runway. The pilot shutdown the engine, exited the aircraft, and contacted
the CYWL flight service station to request assistance. The pilot was uninjured, but the aircraft was
substantially damaged.
The airport issued a NOTAM to close the runway. The airport authority assisted the pilot in moving
the aircraft from the runway to the apron in front of a private hangar located at the airport. The
runway was re-opened approximately 2.5 hours after the occurrence.
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Re: Taildragger Noseover/Groundloop Thread

Post by pelmet »

The privately registered Luscombe T8F-X, C-FHCA, was on a local flight departing, and returning
to the Josephburg airport (CFB6), AB. The aircraft touched down in a 3 point attitude and on the
roll out the pilot had difficulty maintaining directional control. The oscillations became progressively
worse until it ground looped and nosed over. The aircraft was substantially damaged, the pilot was
not injured, and the ELT did not activate.

Maintenance Update: The aircraft was removed from the runway to a secure location. A log entry
was made in the Journey log removing the aircraft from service pending extensive repairs.
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Re: Taildragger Noseover/Groundloop Thread

Post by photofly »

The T8F apparently is a rare tandem seat version, built for pipeline observation or crop spraying. Pity.
https://www.jetphotos.com/photo/10703649
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Re: Taildragger Noseover/Groundloop Thread

Post by pelmet »

pelmet wrote: Wed Dec 14, 2022 6:19 pm The privately registered Luscombe T8F-X, C-FHCA, was on a local flight departing, and returning
to the Josephburg airport (CFB6), AB. The aircraft touched down in a 3 point attitude and on the
roll out the pilot had difficulty maintaining directional control. The oscillations became progressively
worse until it ground looped and nosed over. The aircraft was substantially damaged, the pilot was
not injured, and the ELT did not activate.

Maintenance Update: The aircraft was removed from the runway to a secure location. A log entry
was made in the Journey log removing the aircraft from service pending extensive repairs.
The solution for a situation like this is to add full power and go around. The airflow from full power will result in a quick ability to maintain directional control.
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Re: Taildragger Noseover/Groundloop Thread

Post by DickandBalls »

pelmet wrote: Thu Dec 15, 2022 4:56 am
pelmet wrote: Wed Dec 14, 2022 6:19 pm The privately registered Luscombe T8F-X, C-FHCA, was on a local flight departing, and returning
to the Josephburg airport (CFB6), AB. The aircraft touched down in a 3 point attitude and on the
roll out the pilot had difficulty maintaining directional control. The oscillations became progressively
worse until it ground looped and nosed over. The aircraft was substantially damaged, the pilot was
not injured, and the ELT did not activate.

Maintenance Update: The aircraft was removed from the runway to a secure location. A log entry
was made in the Journey log removing the aircraft from service pending extensive repairs.
The solution for a situation like this is to add full power and go around. The airflow from full power will result in a quick ability to maintain directional control.
You mean “a” solution?
Another is to not land in the 3 point attitude. 4300 ft runway. Just fly it on
Another is to add a touch of power to regain directional control and use the rest of the 1.3 km paved runway to roll out.
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Re: Taildragger Noseover/Groundloop Thread

Post by T-bag »

pelmet wrote: Thu Dec 15, 2022 4:56 am
pelmet wrote: Wed Dec 14, 2022 6:19 pm The privately registered Luscombe T8F-X, C-FHCA, was on a local flight departing, and returning
to the Josephburg airport (CFB6), AB. The aircraft touched down in a 3 point attitude and on the
roll out the pilot had difficulty maintaining directional control. The oscillations became progressively
worse until it ground looped and nosed over. The aircraft was substantially damaged, the pilot was
not injured, and the ELT did not activate.

Maintenance Update: The aircraft was removed from the runway to a secure location. A log entry
was made in the Journey log removing the aircraft from service pending extensive repairs.
The solution for a situation like this is to add full power and go around. The airflow from full power will result in a quick ability to maintain directional control.
You mean “a” solution.
One solution is not to 3 point land a tail dragger. I’ve never really understood why some pilots insist on trying to 3 point a landing. Maybe in a Short Field Landing competition. When I was cropdusting I’d wheel it on the grass and then come back on the tarmac. That way we’d save the tires and more than double their life. Ever see a DC3 3 point a landing 😳

Another solution in this case may have been to add a touch of power to regain directional control then continue down the 1.3 km long runway.
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Re: Taildragger Noseover/Groundloop Thread

Post by pelmet »

T-bag wrote: Fri Dec 16, 2022 12:52 am
pelmet wrote: Thu Dec 15, 2022 4:56 am
pelmet wrote: Wed Dec 14, 2022 6:19 pm The privately registered Luscombe T8F-X, C-FHCA, was on a local flight departing, and returning
to the Josephburg airport (CFB6), AB. The aircraft touched down in a 3 point attitude and on the
roll out the pilot had difficulty maintaining directional control. The oscillations became progressively
worse until it ground looped and nosed over. The aircraft was substantially damaged, the pilot was
not injured, and the ELT did not activate.

Maintenance Update: The aircraft was removed from the runway to a secure location. A log entry
was made in the Journey log removing the aircraft from service pending extensive repairs.
The solution for a situation like this is to add full power and go around. The airflow from full power will result in a quick ability to maintain directional control.
You mean “a” solution.
One solution is not to 3 point land a tail dragger. I’ve never really understood why some pilots insist on trying to 3 point a landing. Maybe in a Short Field Landing competition. When I was cropdusting I’d wheel it on the grass and then come back on the tarmac. That way we’d save the tires and more than double their life. Ever see a DC3 3 point a landing 😳

Another solution in this case may have been to add a touch of power to regain directional control then continue down the 1.3 km long runway.
Thanks for the reply. Interesting comments that sound like they come from someone with plenty of experience. It is difficult to know the exact circumstances. The report does talk of rollout more than touch down but that could be generalized.

So it could be more of a control issue that happened after a successful touchdown but perhaps not. Your touch of power solution is definitely valid but I would recommend it only for a reasonably experienced tail wheel pilot in a situation that is not near out of control. Otherwise, full power and get out of there.

Three pointer landings seem to vary by type and surface and for me. I personally saved the three pointers for grass on many taildragger types like the c180 that seemed to bounce around on me on pavement. But the C170 and Citabria types do nice three pointers on pavement. Three point on grass leaves the aircraft in a less vulnerable state for a nose over if soft ground is encountered on the rollout.

On the other hand, three pointers are a full stall landing and sometimes, one misjudges and drops it onto the pavement firmly. Therefore, when in an aircraft which may not have as robust a tail wheel area, I avoid three pointers on pavement to reduce the likelihood of larger impact forces. This could be an older aircraft with wood construction, perhaps an ultralight(although I don’t fly them), or an aircraft with an issue(such as tail wheel shimmy).
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Last edited by pelmet on Fri Dec 16, 2022 5:14 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Taildragger Noseover/Groundloop Thread

Post by PilotDAR »

That way we’d save the tires and more than double their life.
And tailwheel mechanisms! My preference is to always wheel land, unless specific type instruction is contrary (not yet).

When, during training I just threepointed the DC-3T, I felt my instructor's hand calmly, but firmly pushing my hand and the power levers forward. Before he said so, I thought to myself: "I guess we're going around...". He very calmly said: "We don't threepoint DC-3's". and it was memorable. No drama, no problem, just good instruction.

If, when I touchdown in my taildragger, I feel the tailwheel lightly touch, I'll still lift it back off the surface with some forward stick, and hold it off until it touches down naturally itself with full forward sick at slow speed.

This has also come up in discussions I've had with respect to ski flying. Again, I prefer to wheel (ski?) land the plane. Slightly different reason, I like to "feel" the snow surface, while I still have the option to go around if I don't like what I feel. More to the point I was later advised, that there is the potential (at least with PA-18 similar types) to damage the tailpost if you put the tail ski through a crust at speed during a three point landing.

As for the recent accident discussed:
The oscillations became progressively worse
During wheel landings, pitch oscillations are unlikely, and very controllable should they start.
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