QOL for commuters

[Anonymouse]

Whats the QOL like for AC pilots who commute? Any insight from anyone living in Calgary would be appreciated.

And what are the upgrade times like? How many hours do you need to upgrade?

[PostmasterGeneral]

How many hours do you need to upgrade?

Uh, what?

[negroni]

Rule of thumb, don't plan on commuting more than one province unless it's when you're hired and waiting a few months to get your preferred base. For example Calgary, Kelowna, Edmonton, Victoria too YVR base is livable. Same with any way between YYZ/YOW/YUL. Things get a bit harder if you're an East coast commuter or Winnipeg to YYZ. Don't even think about commuting long term between YVR and YYZ or YUL.

Hours are irrelevant. Everyone hired at AC has the minimums to upgrade. Upgrades are only based on seniority. Currently around 3.5-4 years and dropping.

[Fanblade]

Seniority.

You don’t have a choice when you get hired but every equipment bid there after you do.

Senior YYC - YVR Commuters are doing 14-15 days a month on the 320/737. Overnights in YYC. Late enough starts they can go day of. Early enough stops they get home day of pairing finish.

About 60% ish things get livable. Late starts. Early finishes. Only a few hotels required. Will get a few YYC overnights. 16 days.

Junior. 16 days. Very little YYC overnights. Often need to go the night before. Finish too late to get back day of pairing ending. Can easily turn into 20 days. If you have sim in the month 22.

Reserve. Expect to be working or sitting in YVR 20 days plus having to go the night before.

To answer your question about upgrading. Within a couple of years it will be attainable. However you will spend years on Reserve and junior. Great way to get divorced.

60% range as a narrow body Captain? I’d say 10 years.

Livable commuting means staying senior. It means delaying pay increases until senior.

[Calin Robandfistyou]

Don't forget to Budget about $5000/yr in after tax dollars just to pay for the AIF's.

[goleafsgo]

Things get a bit harder if you're an East coast commuter or Winnipeg to YYZ.

Bit off topic but I commute Ywg-yyz working for jazz and rarely have a problem. If I have been bumped I’ve always made it on the next flight

[negroni]

Things get a bit harder if you're an East coast commuter or Winnipeg to YYZ.

Bit off topic but I commute Ywg-yyz working for jazz and rarely have a problem. If I have been bumped I’ve always made it on the next flight

Good point I have heard of YEG-YYZ being a route that seems to work. Likely due to the low amount of commuters, and lately the capacity and size of aircraft increasing on that route.

[DanWEC]

What about to get to the point where you could have an "acceptable" schedule on the WB side? Just curious. Is the junior schedule inherently more relaxed than the NB side?

[co-joe]

Seniority.

...
Junior. 16 days. Very little YYC overnights. Often need to go the night before. Finish too late to get back day of pairing ending. Can easily turn into 20 days. If you have sim in the month 22.

Reserve. Expect to be working or sitting in YVR 20 days plus having to go the night before.

To answer your question about upgrading. Within a couple of years it will be attainable. However you will spend years on Reserve and junior. Great way to get divorced.

60% range as a narrow body Captain? I’d say 10 years.

Livable commuting means staying senior. It means delaying pay increases until senior.

I admit, I always assumed that AC had the best schedule in the business, more and more I realise your CBA is weak in some areas. Sim training comes out of your days off?

[FL030]

How's the Victoria to Vancouver commute these days? Do think it will be impacted by the Jazz staffing problems and the ferries being canceled a lot?

[negroni]

Seniority.

...
Junior. 16 days. Very little YYC overnights. Often need to go the night before. Finish too late to get back day of pairing ending. Can easily turn into 20 days. If you have sim in the month 22.

Reserve. Expect to be working or sitting in YVR 20 days plus having to go the night before.

To answer your question about upgrading. Within a couple of years it will be attainable. However you will spend years on Reserve and junior. Great way to get divorced.

60% range as a narrow body Captain? I’d say 10 years.

Livable commuting means staying senior. It means delaying pay increases until senior.

I admit, I always assumed that AC had the best schedule in the business, more and more I realise your CBA is weak in some areas. Sim training comes out of your days off?

Lol far from the best. Nearly everyone here works 16 days a month. It wasn't even that bad at the regionals. AC pairing construction is extremely unproductive. Almost deliberately so.

[co-joe]

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[flyingcanuck]

Seniority.

...
Junior. 16 days. Very little YYC overnights. Often need to go the night before. Finish too late to get back day of pairing ending. Can easily turn into 20 days. If you have sim in the month 22.

Reserve. Expect to be working or sitting in YVR 20 days plus having to go the night before.

To answer your question about upgrading. Within a couple of years it will be attainable. However you will spend years on Reserve and junior. Great way to get divorced.

60% range as a narrow body Captain? I’d say 10 years.

Livable commuting means staying senior. It means delaying pay increases until senior.

I admit, I always assumed that AC had the best schedule in the business, more and more I realise your CBA is weak in some areas. Sim training comes out of your days off?

Lol far from the best. Nearly everyone here works 16 days a month. It wasn't even that bad at the regionals. AC pairing construction is extremely unproductive. Almost deliberately so.

Yikes, 16 a month?? That's very unfortunate..

[Bede]

I admit, I always assumed that AC had the best schedule in the business, more and more I realise your CBA is weak in some areas. Sim training comes out of your days off?

I haven't looked at it in depth, but every time I've discussed schedules with an AC pilot it seems that my schedule at WJ is better. If I bid for layovers/days off I work 14-15 days with weekends off and one layover/pairing in a good destination. (This month I work 15 days, no vacation, have a week off in the middle of the month, Christmas & Christmas eve off, and have 24-48 hrs in HUX, PVR & BGI). I used to do high credit flying and I'd be done in 10 days (but I'd be pretty tired the next day. Another bidding strategy I used to use was late check-ins/early check-outs for easy commuting. I'd work 15 days/mo, no hotel cost, and not fatiguing.

[TheAlcalde]

I admit, I always assumed that AC had the best schedule in the business, more and more I realise your CBA is weak in some areas. Sim training comes out of your days off?

I haven't looked at it in depth, but every time I've discussed schedules with an AC pilot it seems that my schedule at WJ is better. If I bid for layovers/days off I work 14-15 days with weekends off and one layover/pairing in a good destination. (This month I work 15 days, no vacation, have a week off in the middle of the month, Christmas & Christmas eve off, and have 24-48 hrs in HUX, PVR & BGI). I used to do high credit flying and I'd be done in 10 days (but I'd be pretty tired the next day. Another bidding strategy I used to use was late check-ins/early check-outs for easy commuting. I'd work 15 days/mo, no hotel cost, and not fatiguing.

Junior WB Air Canada rosters are the worst I’ve ever heard of. One fellow on my machine had TWENTY ONE days of work. On a WB. Besides the money and variety of work / potential for early upgrade, out working rules are the absolute shits.

[DanWEC]

Well, AC drove down salaries for everyone else, and is now the lowest paying in the country on the junior side as others have started to come up. Why wouldn't they try to drive the schedules to the ground and make it the new norm too? We already have a growing annual deficit of pilots because of decreasing uptake to the career, for good reason. Guess they're expecting some magical solution to the incoming staffing issues instead of facing the impending reality?

Requisite Internet rant aside , are these schedules just a temporary result of short staffing and constant training or are they the actual intended block targets and will be perpetual?

[lownslow]

Requisite Internet rant aside , are these schedules just a temporary result of short staffing and constant training or are they the actual intended block targets and will be perpetual?

My current theory is at least the NB fleets could have much more productive pairings that would cost the company less and get by with fewer pilots working fewer days a month but they don’t want their pilots to get used to that life.

[superbilly24]

How is QOL for an RP holding a block? Would that be easier for a commuter?

[Fanblade]

are these schedules just a temporary result of short staffing and constant training or are they the actual intended block targets and will be perpetual?

Perpetual.

And for an answer above. Sim and Annual recurrent training are in addition to your monthly flying.

There is no max 16 days on the Widebody. Junior on the WB can do 6 Europe out of Eastern Canada. That can easily turn into 18-20 days.

Junior RP is just as bad. If you get stuck with half pay DH's days can add up.

[TheAlcalde]

How is QOL for an RP holding a block? Would that be easier for a commuter?

That 21 day block I mentioned earlier? Junior RP.

This company will reap what it sows. The newer generation of pilots aren’t being hired at 22 and realize that this job doesn’t get you the summer home and fishing boat.

[yhz41]

What's life at Rouge like these days? I thought it was kind of the golden egg for commuters at one point?

[jpilot77]

What's life at Rouge like these days? I thought it was kind of the golden egg for commuters at one point?

It was socialized bidding before COVID, but it is now mainline working conditions.

[PostmasterGeneral]

What's life at Rouge like these days? I thought it was kind of the golden egg for commuters at one point?

Unfortunately, the only REAL way to make commuting a non-issue is seniority. Helps both in schedule bidding, and in the commute itself.

[altiplano]

NB maximum is 14-16 days a month depending on DBM, very occasionally I do better than the maximum by a day or 2. I'm about 30% block holder. Seniority makes the commute better, group pairings into work periods choose pairings you can same-day fly in/out on, etc.

It should be better here, there is no doubt. But they want us working more.

The pressure they constantly apply on every corner of the contract they can is brutal. They have multiple full time staff whose only job is to fück us.

Know the contract, they will cut corners if you allow them, fly your block.

A big problem is optimizing in our PBS program, which while optimal for them is not optimal for us, it subverts seniority by swapping flying from senior blocks as it no longer can build legal blocks, this allows them to build inefficient pairings irrespective of their staffing levels because it all gets shuffled in somehow anyway.

We need control and a say in our pairings.

We used to be allowed a maximum 900 DBM hours per year (avg. 75/mo) we're now up to 996 (avg. 83/mo) and they were going for 1020 in the last MOA that was voted down.

Thank a generation of union leadership that thought working more was a raise.

The LCC "see, socialized was better" suggestion is a red herring because the flying they did was almost all the most productive flying that was taken away from mainline and adversely affected those blocks. Put out a LCC pairing package of primarily 6.5-10 hour/day credit pairings of course you get better blocks.

But also realize, the corporation was invested in the division that the LCC created, they nurtured that appearance of LCC-contract-is-better while it served them, they were meanwhile always looking for how to, and intending to, optimize those schedules as they could (guys paid to fück us). Observe the Repatriation Flying coming in from the '17 reopener, YQM, YQT, YQB, etc. Remember it was supposed to be completely separate fins too? How'd that work out?

I'm not so sure that all the long single days at the LCC suit a commuter that well anyway unless you really like your crash pad mates.

WB? Used to be pretty F-n good. Even junior blocks. Max days? Don't need it! But remember optimizing and the guys whose only job is to fück us. Blocks on the 767 started taking a dump, now the 330... and with no China flying and no Russian airspace, productivity on the 777 & 787 is down. Geopolitics change though... but remember they want you at work more and will come however they can (ie. 88hrs, 1020hrs).

Know the contract, follow the contract, tell them NO, don't extend, fly your block, book off fatigued. It's as simple as that.

[Col. Panic]

By 2019, Rouge flying was not necessarily all the high productivity pairings… you mixed high credit turns with extremely low credit (no DPG meant we had 3 day pairings worth 6 hours) Regional Replacement flying, and seemed to work 16 days every month. I still liked it, but it wasn’t the same as the early days of Rogue where you could work 9 days of turns or more days with nice layovers. The 77:30 MMG and 2.5x draft were welcome additions.

On the main topic… I have commuted for my 5 years at AC. I don’t recommend it, if you can avoid commuting, but it is manageable. I have been commuting as a very junior reserve pilot for the past 6 months, and it’s not as bad as I thought it might be… but that may depend a bit on fleet type and seat. I only rarely have to sit for a whole day at the crash pad, they seem to use me most of the days I’m available… which I like, because if I’m going to bother to commute, I would much rather fly than sit.
With the “best fit” reserve rules, there is no chance of being senior enough to pass on everything and stay home! The good news is that as long as hiring continues, you won’t be at the bottom of the list for long, and even a junior block holder probably gets a more commuter friendly schedule that a pilot on reserve. We have some of the worst reserve rules in the business, and QOL for reserve pilots has not been a priority for negotiations in the past, as sitting on reserve is a “choice” for most, at least according to some of our (former, thankfully) leaders.