Is Jazz the right choice

[cdnavater]

I feel like a broken record so I’ll explain again online.

Jazz is not the place to be!

Old Jazz pilots are upset Air Georgian and Sky Regional were created and will make it known to you if you come from that operation from the past. They forget to realize they are former Air BC, Air Ontario Etc…they also fail to realize they were treating the job they had as the one and only when clearly it was not

There is no DB pension. That was sold off along time ago so we could get a flow agreement of 60% annual to AC.

There is currently no flow as it stands. Was delayed in the spring summer then subsequently stopped October. It remains to be seen if it will come back for November December. My hunch is no.

There is no upgraded dead heads like the old guard has and there is zero chance it will ever be awarded to the younger group.

Here’s food for thought, the older pilot group always says we have to give something up in order to get something in return.
Why doesn’t the old guard for-fit there c2 passes and dh upgrades for the greater good of the pilot group so we can ask for more pay. This will never happen.

As for pay is abuse. First 4 years as captain and 4 years at FO are a joke and not worth a dime in this current climate.
Lots of FO have to work a second job in order to make ends meet. It’s great for the company because it makes people who otherwise wouldn’t pick up over time do it anyway which helps the pilot shortage issue.

As for the pilot shortage, coming here with a CPL you will be made fun of by all the ATPL pilots. You will be lumped into the Seneca college group which brings the working conditions down dramatically. Don’t forget your crosswind landing limitations!

If you come with an ATPL and manage to upgrade the one
positive is that you transition over to a higher pay scale to afford your gf/bf’s birthday gift. I believe year 4 FO starts at year 2 Captain. Not great but a start.

Have you ever wanted to travel over seas. Our C4 passes will barely get you there. You have to pray an Air Canada call center employees parents don’t try and fly on the same flight as you.

Maintenance generally is okay yet they lack the knowledge for on the fly work. If it goes into maintenance over night it will be repaired. If the aircraft breaks at an outstation with no maintenance base Jazz does not hire contractors to fix the plane. They fly mx out. Good for you if you want an extra day in LGA or BNA. Considering the lay overs are min rest and you never see a single destination longer then it takes to order a pizza and pass out from stress.


Another positive I’ll say is the crew shuttles are fairly good.

Recently they have been scaling back private shuttles.
This has been creating delays for departure because we’re waiting for the hotel shuttle to arrive and wait for the other cattle to get on the bus. This made crew scheduling bring back private shuttles.

Worst case scenario is a dead head day 1 to YUL then you fly to DFW to then take a hotel cattle shuttle for a min rest night at a hotel. Following day is a 3 legs and a dead head back to YUL. Dead head is back of the plane. If you’re lucky you avoid the middle seat.

Dispatch is probably the only positive thing at Jazz. Very new people in the office tho. Make sure you check they placed a sid departure in the flight plan or you’ll look funny asking for more fuel last minute or a reroute to the clearance after requesting a PDC.

Dispatch does not shy away from giving you lots of gas which is a bonus.

Crew scheduling is hit and miss. 50% great people the other %50 are out to screw you and our contract. Make sure you know your alpa contract and your rights for duty day. They WILL push you to fly and break duty.

If you want to come to Jazz to get over worked paid garbage with awful flight benefits great.

Maintenance is average
Lay overs short
Pay garbage
Pension garbage
Alpa mec support garbage
Flow to ac non existent

Speak to any old Jazz pilot and they will tell you how great our contract is. And the reason why they are saying it’s so great is because it secures there retirement. When these pilots leave, they will have left Jazz worse off then when they arrived. They forget to realize that Air Georgian and Sky Regional airlines shut down, and Air Canada paid the penalty to have the CBA canceled. Nothing different than what could happen at Jazz in the next five years if we can’t get something sorted regarding the flow to Air Canada for Jazz pilots. Watch Porter become Jazz 2.0. For Air Canada.

JAZZ is not invincible and has pissed on its pilots the contract and annoyed Air Canada


Moral at Jazz is lower than low and not getting better. If you are new coming to jazz don’t expect much and don’t come here to complain. You knew what you were getting your self into signing up for this operation.

If you are coming from up north, or a smaller operation with 1000 to 3000 hours of flight time, do not come to Jazz. Go to Westjet, Porter, or Air Transat. All of these places would be better career options. Plus you get better flight benefits and pension options. A first officer after three years of flying at WestJet will make the same as a 2nd year captain at Jazz. PIC time on a jet means nothing in this day and age so coming to Jazz to upgrade is worthless considering encore FO are being hired with bare mins to AC.

Over the long term you make more money staying away from Jazz than you would if you stayed. And obviously people come to Jazz wanting to go to Air Canada but don’t bank on that ever happening ever again.

My horse has finished the race at Jazz and I am currently interviewing elsewhere as we speak!


If you read this and following my post is a bunch of trump messages, those are the old Jazz heads mad I am telling it how it is.

Hey,
Old Jazz Head here, I’m not mad at your post, in fact I find it kind of amusing. There is way too much to unpack but suffice to say you have some of your facts wrong. I don’t know what Air BC and Air Ontario have to do with anything, they were wholly owned by AC and opposite ends of the country but whatever, you hold on to that thought.
Hate to break it to you, you won’t find a DB pension anywhere except government jobs perhaps, maybe that’s where you should focus your career.
So what have you done to improve Jazz, you came here knowing full well the pay and conditions with the sole intention of leaving, in essence suppressing the wages by accepting them, your colleagues thank you!
You can improve Jazz and I do want you to take it the way I intend, leave, leave now, your attitude is poisonous and I’m sure you’re a joy to be around. I have not seen the low morale you speak of, no doubt there is some, but it’s the ones who refuse to accept the consequences of their choices.
I wish you well on your journey, and you leaving will help the Jazz pilots as a whole, the more of “you” the better. After all when we signed the contract, the original 10 year, I specifically asked a VP if they were worried that by lowering the starting pay to that level we wouldn’t be able to hire enough pilots, his response was, I’m paraphrasing, we’ll know in a few months if we went too far.
I voted for it based on that, if pilots didn’t come wages would go up without losing any bargaining capital, guess what, they just kept coming and here we are, listening to whiny children blaming everyone except themselves.
Good luck with you interviews, I hope you get it, for your sake and ours, remember though your choice to leave will have consequences! Maybe good, maybe bad who will you blame, the old Jazz heads?

“Maintenance is average( I have found the maintenance, both line and heavy to be top notch and trustworthy, I’m offended that you even suggested this!)
Lay overs short(Welcome to regional flying)
Pay garbage(See above post)
Pension garbage(See above re pension)
Alpa mec support garbage( if you are referring to support on the flow, they’ve retained lawyers and are working on a plan, they also communicated that it doesn’t seem AC will be able to fulfill their obligations but since it’s an annual requirement, there was literally nothing they could do until the tally at the end of the year, what more do you want)
Flow to ac non existent”(See above)

[CaptDukeNukem]

I feel like a broken record so I’ll explain again online.

Jazz is not the place to be!

Old Jazz pilots are upset Air Georgian and Sky Regional were created and will make it known to you if you come from that operation from the past. They forget to realize they are former Air BC, Air Ontario Etc…they also fail to realize they were treating the job they had as the one and only when clearly it was not

There is no DB pension. That was sold off along time ago so we could get a flow agreement of 60% annual to AC.

There is currently no flow as it stands. Was delayed in the spring summer then subsequently stopped October. It remains to be seen if it will come back for November December. My hunch is no.

There is no upgraded dead heads like the old guard has and there is zero chance it will ever be awarded to the younger group.

Here’s food for thought, the older pilot group always says we have to give something up in order to get something in return.
Why doesn’t the old guard for-fit there c2 passes and dh upgrades for the greater good of the pilot group so we can ask for more pay. This will never happen.

As for pay is abuse. First 4 years as captain and 4 years at FO are a joke and not worth a dime in this current climate.
Lots of FO have to work a second job in order to make ends meet. It’s great for the company because it makes people who otherwise wouldn’t pick up over time do it anyway which helps the pilot shortage issue.

As for the pilot shortage, coming here with a CPL you will be made fun of by all the ATPL pilots. You will be lumped into the Seneca college group which brings the working conditions down dramatically. Don’t forget your crosswind landing limitations!

If you come with an ATPL and manage to upgrade the one
positive is that you transition over to a higher pay scale to afford your gf/bf’s birthday gift. I believe year 4 FO starts at year 2 Captain. Not great but a start.

Have you ever wanted to travel over seas. Our C4 passes will barely get you there. You have to pray an Air Canada call center employees parents don’t try and fly on the same flight as you.

Maintenance generally is okay yet they lack the knowledge for on the fly work. If it goes into maintenance over night it will be repaired. If the aircraft breaks at an outstation with no maintenance base Jazz does not hire contractors to fix the plane. They fly mx out. Good for you if you want an extra day in LGA or BNA. Considering the lay overs are min rest and you never see a single destination longer then it takes to order a pizza and pass out from stress.


Another positive I’ll say is the crew shuttles are fairly good.

Recently they have been scaling back private shuttles.
This has been creating delays for departure because we’re waiting for the hotel shuttle to arrive and wait for the other cattle to get on the bus. This made crew scheduling bring back private shuttles.

Worst case scenario is a dead head day 1 to YUL then you fly to DFW to then take a hotel cattle shuttle for a min rest night at a hotel. Following day is a 3 legs and a dead head back to YUL. Dead head is back of the plane. If you’re lucky you avoid the middle seat.

Dispatch is probably the only positive thing at Jazz. Very new people in the office tho. Make sure you check they placed a sid departure in the flight plan or you’ll look funny asking for more fuel last minute or a reroute to the clearance after requesting a PDC.

Dispatch does not shy away from giving you lots of gas which is a bonus.

Crew scheduling is hit and miss. 50% great people the other %50 are out to screw you and our contract. Make sure you know your alpa contract and your rights for duty day. They WILL push you to fly and break duty.

If you want to come to Jazz to get over worked paid garbage with awful flight benefits great.

Maintenance is average
Lay overs short
Pay garbage
Pension garbage
Alpa mec support garbage
Flow to ac non existent

Speak to any old Jazz pilot and they will tell you how great our contract is. And the reason why they are saying it’s so great is because it secures there retirement. When these pilots leave, they will have left Jazz worse off then when they arrived. They forget to realize that Air Georgian and Sky Regional airlines shut down, and Air Canada paid the penalty to have the CBA canceled. Nothing different than what could happen at Jazz in the next five years if we can’t get something sorted regarding the flow to Air Canada for Jazz pilots. Watch Porter become Jazz 2.0. For Air Canada.

JAZZ is not invincible and has pissed on its pilots the contract and annoyed Air Canada


Moral at Jazz is lower than low and not getting better. If you are new coming to jazz don’t expect much and don’t come here to complain. You knew what you were getting your self into signing up for this operation.

If you are coming from up north, or a smaller operation with 1000 to 3000 hours of flight time, do not come to Jazz. Go to Westjet, Porter, or Air Transat. All of these places would be better career options. Plus you get better flight benefits and pension options. A first officer after three years of flying at WestJet will make the same as a 2nd year captain at Jazz. PIC time on a jet means nothing in this day and age so coming to Jazz to upgrade is worthless considering encore FO are being hired with bare mins to AC.

Over the long term you make more money staying away from Jazz than you would if you stayed. And obviously people come to Jazz wanting to go to Air Canada but don’t bank on that ever happening ever again.

My horse has finished the race at Jazz and I am currently interviewing elsewhere as we speak!


If you read this and following my post is a bunch of trump messages, those are the old Jazz heads mad I am telling it how it is.

Hey,
Old Jazz Head here, I’m not mad at your post, in fact I find it kind of amusing. There is way too much to unpack but suffice to say you have some of your facts wrong. I don’t know what Air BC and Air Ontario have to do with anything, they were wholly owned by AC and opposite ends of the country but whatever, you hold on to that thought.
Hate to break it to you, you won’t find a DB pension anywhere except government jobs perhaps, maybe that’s where you should focus your career.
So what have you done to improve Jazz, you came here knowing full well the pay and conditions with the sole intention of leaving, in essence suppressing the wages by accepting them, your colleagues thank you!
You can improve Jazz and I do want you to take it the way I intend, leave, leave now, your attitude is poisonous and I’m sure you’re a joy to be around. I have not seen the low morale you speak of, no doubt there is some, but it’s the ones who refuse to accept the consequences of their choices.
I wish you well on your journey, and you leaving will help the Jazz pilots as a whole, the more of “you” the better. After all when we signed the contract, the original 10 year, I specifically asked a VP if they were worried that by lowering the starting pay to that level we wouldn’t be able to hire enough pilots, his response was, I’m paraphrasing, we’ll know in a few months if we went too far.
I voted for it based on that, if pilots didn’t come wages would go up without losing any bargaining capital, guess what, they just kept coming and here we are, listening to whiny children blaming everyone except themselves.
Good luck with you interviews, I hope you get it, for your sake and ours, remember though your choice to leave will have consequences! Maybe good, maybe bad who will you blame, the old Jazz heads?

“Maintenance is average( I have found the maintenance, both line and heavy to be top notch and trustworthy, I’m offended that you even suggested this!)
Lay overs short(Welcome to regional flying)
Pay garbage(See above post)
Pension garbage(See above re pension)
Alpa mec support garbage( if you are referring to support on the flow, they’ve retained lawyers and are working on a plan, they also communicated that it doesn’t seem AC will be able to fulfill their obligations but since it’s an annual requirement, there was literally nothing they could do until the tally at the end of the year, what more do you want)
Flow to ac non existent”(See above)

You must be one of the pilots who’s salary I’m supporting with my $800 a month benefit plan.

[cdnavater]

I feel like a broken record so I’ll explain again online.

Jazz is not the place to be!

Old Jazz pilots are upset Air Georgian and Sky Regional were created and will make it known to you if you come from that operation from the past. They forget to realize they are former Air BC, Air Ontario Etc…they also fail to realize they were treating the job they had as the one and only when clearly it was not

There is no DB pension. That was sold off along time ago so we could get a flow agreement of 60% annual to AC.

There is currently no flow as it stands. Was delayed in the spring summer then subsequently stopped October. It remains to be seen if it will come back for November December. My hunch is no.

There is no upgraded dead heads like the old guard has and there is zero chance it will ever be awarded to the younger group.

Here’s food for thought, the older pilot group always says we have to give something up in order to get something in return.
Why doesn’t the old guard for-fit there c2 passes and dh upgrades for the greater good of the pilot group so we can ask for more pay. This will never happen.

As for pay is abuse. First 4 years as captain and 4 years at FO are a joke and not worth a dime in this current climate.
Lots of FO have to work a second job in order to make ends meet. It’s great for the company because it makes people who otherwise wouldn’t pick up over time do it anyway which helps the pilot shortage issue.

As for the pilot shortage, coming here with a CPL you will be made fun of by all the ATPL pilots. You will be lumped into the Seneca college group which brings the working conditions down dramatically. Don’t forget your crosswind landing limitations!

If you come with an ATPL and manage to upgrade the one
positive is that you transition over to a higher pay scale to afford your gf/bf’s birthday gift. I believe year 4 FO starts at year 2 Captain. Not great but a start.

Have you ever wanted to travel over seas. Our C4 passes will barely get you there. You have to pray an Air Canada call center employees parents don’t try and fly on the same flight as you.

Maintenance generally is okay yet they lack the knowledge for on the fly work. If it goes into maintenance over night it will be repaired. If the aircraft breaks at an outstation with no maintenance base Jazz does not hire contractors to fix the plane. They fly mx out. Good for you if you want an extra day in LGA or BNA. Considering the lay overs are min rest and you never see a single destination longer then it takes to order a pizza and pass out from stress.


Another positive I’ll say is the crew shuttles are fairly good.

Recently they have been scaling back private shuttles.
This has been creating delays for departure because we’re waiting for the hotel shuttle to arrive and wait for the other cattle to get on the bus. This made crew scheduling bring back private shuttles.

Worst case scenario is a dead head day 1 to YUL then you fly to DFW to then take a hotel cattle shuttle for a min rest night at a hotel. Following day is a 3 legs and a dead head back to YUL. Dead head is back of the plane. If you’re lucky you avoid the middle seat.

Dispatch is probably the only positive thing at Jazz. Very new people in the office tho. Make sure you check they placed a sid departure in the flight plan or you’ll look funny asking for more fuel last minute or a reroute to the clearance after requesting a PDC.

Dispatch does not shy away from giving you lots of gas which is a bonus.

Crew scheduling is hit and miss. 50% great people the other %50 are out to screw you and our contract. Make sure you know your alpa contract and your rights for duty day. They WILL push you to fly and break duty.

If you want to come to Jazz to get over worked paid garbage with awful flight benefits great.

Maintenance is average
Lay overs short
Pay garbage
Pension garbage
Alpa mec support garbage
Flow to ac non existent

Speak to any old Jazz pilot and they will tell you how great our contract is. And the reason why they are saying it’s so great is because it secures there retirement. When these pilots leave, they will have left Jazz worse off then when they arrived. They forget to realize that Air Georgian and Sky Regional airlines shut down, and Air Canada paid the penalty to have the CBA canceled. Nothing different than what could happen at Jazz in the next five years if we can’t get something sorted regarding the flow to Air Canada for Jazz pilots. Watch Porter become Jazz 2.0. For Air Canada.

JAZZ is not invincible and has pissed on its pilots the contract and annoyed Air Canada


Moral at Jazz is lower than low and not getting better. If you are new coming to jazz don’t expect much and don’t come here to complain. You knew what you were getting your self into signing up for this operation.

If you are coming from up north, or a smaller operation with 1000 to 3000 hours of flight time, do not come to Jazz. Go to Westjet, Porter, or Air Transat. All of these places would be better career options. Plus you get better flight benefits and pension options. A first officer after three years of flying at WestJet will make the same as a 2nd year captain at Jazz. PIC time on a jet means nothing in this day and age so coming to Jazz to upgrade is worthless considering encore FO are being hired with bare mins to AC.

Over the long term you make more money staying away from Jazz than you would if you stayed. And obviously people come to Jazz wanting to go to Air Canada but don’t bank on that ever happening ever again.

My horse has finished the race at Jazz and I am currently interviewing elsewhere as we speak!


If you read this and following my post is a bunch of trump messages, those are the old Jazz heads mad I am telling it how it is.

Hey,
Old Jazz Head here, I’m not mad at your post, in fact I find it kind of amusing. There is way too much to unpack but suffice to say you have some of your facts wrong. I don’t know what Air BC and Air Ontario have to do with anything, they were wholly owned by AC and opposite ends of the country but whatever, you hold on to that thought.
Hate to break it to you, you won’t find a DB pension anywhere except government jobs perhaps, maybe that’s where you should focus your career.
So what have you done to improve Jazz, you came here knowing full well the pay and conditions with the sole intention of leaving, in essence suppressing the wages by accepting them, your colleagues thank you!
You can improve Jazz and I do want you to take it the way I intend, leave, leave now, your attitude is poisonous and I’m sure you’re a joy to be around. I have not seen the low morale you speak of, no doubt there is some, but it’s the ones who refuse to accept the consequences of their choices.
I wish you well on your journey, and you leaving will help the Jazz pilots as a whole, the more of “you” the better. After all when we signed the contract, the original 10 year, I specifically asked a VP if they were worried that by lowering the starting pay to that level we wouldn’t be able to hire enough pilots, his response was, I’m paraphrasing, we’ll know in a few months if we went too far.
I voted for it based on that, if pilots didn’t come wages would go up without losing any bargaining capital, guess what, they just kept coming and here we are, listening to whiny children blaming everyone except themselves.
Good luck with you interviews, I hope you get it, for your sake and ours, remember though your choice to leave will have consequences! Maybe good, maybe bad who will you blame, the old Jazz heads?

“Maintenance is average( I have found the maintenance, both line and heavy to be top notch and trustworthy, I’m offended that you even suggested this!)
Lay overs short(Welcome to regional flying)
Pay garbage(See above post)
Pension garbage(See above re pension)
Alpa mec support garbage( if you are referring to support on the flow, they’ve retained lawyers and are working on a plan, they also communicated that it doesn’t seem AC will be able to fulfill their obligations but since it’s an annual requirement, there was literally nothing they could do until the tally at the end of the year, what more do you want)
Flow to ac non existent”(See above)

You must be one of the pilots who’s salary I’m supporting with my $800 a month benefit plan.

If you’re paying 800, what do you think I’m paying!
Tell me though, you are just passing through, why exactly should I sacrifice my salary to improve your situation, I’d like an answer that isn’t just some selfish reason.
Don’t get me wrong, I DON’T want you to suffer, I just think you shouldn’t have come in the first place. You chose to sacrifice pay for the carrot of AC, I’m not going to AC so why exactly should I give a flying fart about your life’s choices.
It’s time for you to realize, Jazz and AC know you are invested and will only pay just enough to keep you dangling, maybe it’s time for you and your ilk to grow a pair, send them a message with your resignation.

You remind me of this old fable, a man walks up to a woman in the bar and asks her if she would sleep with him for a million dollars, she thinks about it and how a million dollars would change her life. She finally says yes, then the man says, we’ll how about a hundred. She slaps him and says what kind of woman do you take me for? He responds, we’ve already established that, now we are haggling the price!

[daedalusx]

You see, the Baby Boomer is immunized against all dangers: one may call him a parasite, selfish, profiteer, real estate speculator, it all runs off him like water off a raincoat. But call him a Boomer and you will be astonished at how he recoils, how injured he is, how he suddenly shrinks back: "I’ve been found out!"

[cdnavater]

You see, the Baby Boomer is immunized against all dangers: one may call him a parasite, selfish, profiteer, real estate speculator, it all runs off him like water off a raincoat. But call him a Boomer and you will be astonished at how he recoils, how injured he is, how he suddenly shrinks back: "I’ve been found out!"

If that’s directed at me, I wish I was a “Boomer” as a Gen Xer I still have a ways to go to retirement and I’m very tired of this current generations bitching and moaning about how we screwed them over, grow a pair and own your shit.
I made a few choices in my career that landed me unemployed, I didn’t fucking whine about it, I used some different skills to pay the bills while I waited for the flying jobs to pick back up.
You know what my generation did when we couldn’t pay our bills, we worked more jobs, fucken pansies!

[canadian_aviator_4]

You see, the Baby Boomer is immunized against all dangers: one may call him a parasite, selfish, profiteer, real estate speculator, it all runs off him like water off a raincoat. But call him a Boomer and you will be astonished at how he recoils, how injured he is, how he suddenly shrinks back: "I’ve been found out!"

If that’s directed at me, I wish I was a “Boomer” as a Gen Xer I still have a ways to go to retirement and I’m very tired of this current generations bitching and moaning about how we screwed them over, grow a pair and own your shit.
I made a few choices in my career that landed me unemployed, I didn’t fucking whine about it, I used some different skills to pay the bills while I waited for the flying jobs to pick back up.
You know what my generation did when we couldn’t pay our bills, we worked more jobs, fucken pansies!

Calm down cdnavater. Not sure what has you so angry at everyone. Seriously relax and provide more constructive feedback instead of f this and f that. Jazz has a good program for therapy to deal with anger management issues.

[cdnavater]

You see, the Baby Boomer is immunized against all dangers: one may call him a parasite, selfish, profiteer, real estate speculator, it all runs off him like water off a raincoat. But call him a Boomer and you will be astonished at how he recoils, how injured he is, how he suddenly shrinks back: "I’ve been found out!"

If that’s directed at me, I wish I was a “Boomer” as a Gen Xer I still have a ways to go to retirement and I’m very tired of this current generations bitching and moaning about how we screwed them over, grow a pair and own your shit.
I made a few choices in my career that landed me unemployed, I didn’t fucking whine about it, I used some different skills to pay the bills while I waited for the flying jobs to pick back up.
You know what my generation did when we couldn’t pay our bills, we worked more jobs, fucken pansies!

Calm down cdnavater. Not sure what has you so angry at everyone. Seriously relax and provide more constructive feedback instead of f this and f that. Jazz has a good program for therapy to deal with anger management issues.

Sorry, didn’t mean to hurt your delicate feelings, I’ve given you the wrong impression, I’m not seething at the keyboard, some times an fbomb is needed to convey a point.
You’ve said a couple things in other threads I can agree with, like get rid of flow for more pay but I suspect that would extremely limit the amount Jazz pilot going to AC.
Time will tell but it’s looking like no deal is imminent, so status quo for now. Maybe you’ll be in one of those Nov courses, good luck, I mean that. Don’t take a bad attitude over with you, realize you are choosing to go under the conditions in effect and nobody held a gun to your head, the seniors didn’t sell you out, they gave you a choice.

[CaptDukeNukem]

Hey,
Old Jazz Head here, I’m not mad at your post, in fact I find it kind of amusing. There is way too much to unpack but suffice to say you have some of your facts wrong. I don’t know what Air BC and Air Ontario have to do with anything, they were wholly owned by AC and opposite ends of the country but whatever, you hold on to that thought.
Hate to break it to you, you won’t find a DB pension anywhere except government jobs perhaps, maybe that’s where you should focus your career.
So what have you done to improve Jazz, you came here knowing full well the pay and conditions with the sole intention of leaving, in essence suppressing the wages by accepting them, your colleagues thank you!
You can improve Jazz and I do want you to take it the way I intend, leave, leave now, your attitude is poisonous and I’m sure you’re a joy to be around. I have not seen the low morale you speak of, no doubt there is some, but it’s the ones who refuse to accept the consequences of their choices.
I wish you well on your journey, and you leaving will help the Jazz pilots as a whole, the more of “you” the better. After all when we signed the contract, the original 10 year, I specifically asked a VP if they were worried that by lowering the starting pay to that level we wouldn’t be able to hire enough pilots, his response was, I’m paraphrasing, we’ll know in a few months if we went too far.
I voted for it based on that, if pilots didn’t come wages would go up without losing any bargaining capital, guess what, they just kept coming and here we are, listening to whiny children blaming everyone except themselves.
Good luck with you interviews, I hope you get it, for your sake and ours, remember though your choice to leave will have consequences! Maybe good, maybe bad who will you blame, the old Jazz heads?

“Maintenance is average( I have found the maintenance, both line and heavy to be top notch and trustworthy, I’m offended that you even suggested this!)
Lay overs short(Welcome to regional flying)
Pay garbage(See above post)
Pension garbage(See above re pension)
Alpa mec support garbage( if you are referring to support on the flow, they’ve retained lawyers and are working on a plan, they also communicated that it doesn’t seem AC will be able to fulfill their obligations but since it’s an annual requirement, there was literally nothing they could do until the tally at the end of the year, what more do you want)
Flow to ac non existent”(See above)

You must be one of the pilots who’s salary I’m supporting with my $800 a month benefit plan.

If you’re paying 800, what do you think I’m paying!
Tell me though, you are just passing through, why exactly should I sacrifice my salary to improve your situation, I’d like an answer that isn’t just some selfish reason.
Don’t get me wrong, I DON’T want you to suffer, I just think you shouldn’t have come in the first place. You chose to sacrifice pay for the carrot of AC, I’m not going to AC so why exactly should I give a flying fart about your life’s choices.
It’s time for you to realize, Jazz and AC know you are invested and will only pay just enough to keep you dangling, maybe it’s time for you and your ilk to grow a pair, send them a message with your resignation.

You remind me of this old fable, a man walks up to a woman in the bar and asks her if she would sleep with him for a million dollars, she thinks about it and how a million dollars would change her life. She finally says yes, then the man says, we’ll how about a hundred. She slaps him and says what kind of woman do you take me for? He responds, we’ve already established that, now we are haggling the price!

I agree with some other members in this thread. Not sure why you are so pissed off at everything and everyone. I’m sure you pay way more than me for the extremely overpriced benefit plan.

Also, what makes you think I chose to work at jazz? And what makes you think it’s a stepping stone for me? You don’t know anything about my life and aviation path. So step 1, stop assuming things and feeling sorry for yourself.

Your fable is a funny one. It also can be turned into the exact thing that jazz/AC is doing to the pilot group.

The woman in the bar is the pilot group, and the man in your fable is management. Jazz had a great thing going. Then Jazz management scared people in signing a contract extension that is mediocre….. AT BEST. Yet everyone jumped on it. That’s haggling over the price. Maybe the contract worked for you, and I don’t blame you for voting yes to it. Thing is: jazz won’t exist if the jazz lifers keep up with this line of thinking.

I’m happy you’re happy at jazz. What you may or may not realize is what the group has given away. But Jesus dude, lose the anger.

[canadian_aviator_4]

In summary. No!

[smooth]

Seriously? we are comparing Jazz to some 703 operator? LOL. Don't get me wrong, Jazz is underpaid for their FOs and other issues, but Jazz is still the best regional airlines under Air Canada, if not the best regional airlines pilots can go. Good maintenance, proper 705 airplanes and training department(getting 250hr college CPL to a 705 machines). Not some Metroliner/DC3 that no one in the world flys(which we are so proud of... ) and airplanes that suppose be in the museum 20 years ago. Some people are out of their mind on this forum....jokes

Metroline hahhahahahahhahaha okay....I'm out

[FriendslyCanadian]

Jazz is sadly no longer the place to go. AC is starting to reduce their flying and planning for alternatives. Chorus itself is divesting aggressively away from the CPA as their main source of income. There is something to be said about the size of the company but it's set to be reduced as per contract. Will it be reduced? That may require a crystal ball that no one has. I think jazz currently has over a 100 aircraft but its set to be at 80 by 2025. Any 705 is great in terms of comparing to 703 but when it comes to staying at jazz vs 737 operators that require the same experience now I would say a firm No as my opinion.140k after 18 years as left seat with 55% going away in deductions. I can't imagine how this has been allowed to happend or how they live on less than 70k after deductions if they aren't settled down with leverage on assets. lots of FOs have part time jobs on the side or live in groups of 3 in a place and that's disheartening.the company put out a memo by the VP recently saying :

everything is okay and we won't be closing bases, we see that AC is taking flying away but all is well do not leave we won't close yyc. maintenance has been Innovative trying to find solutions to broken planes. Jazz is getting lots of pilots, lots of atpl pilots and if not then they will soon be atpl in next few years. AC is hiring pilots again after deciding randomly to not for a year and they will continue we pinky promise...anyways everything is fine.

Now that all said, is it a good culture at jazz? It has changed quite a bit In the last decade, and some call it mini aircanada but as of now it's still good in culture but that is rapidly changing.

As of right now with all the choices in Canada Jazz is not the best place to go in my opinion but that may not hold true with others.

[Nick678]

Well the news is out on how badly AC wiped their arse with our flow agreement. Hopefully this sends a signal to any potential pilot looking to come here. No amount of money can fix the damage caused by lost seniority over the course of a career.

Also, hearing stories of lots of FO's that asked Santa for PIC hours this year and it seems miracles do come true!! Does AC actually check logbooks anymore? One had recent time in his book from a plane that hasn't be airworthy in over 5 years.

[kiaszceski]

That's interesting to see corporations willing to downsize their operations instead of expanding and giving more value to the shareholders.
I'm wondering what's going to happen to Encore and Jazz.

[PostmasterGeneral]

That's interesting to see corporations willing to downsize their operations instead of expanding and giving more value to the shareholders.
I'm wondering what's going to happen to Encore and Jazz.

Jazz is not the only bun in the Chorus oven. If they focus their efforts elsewhere, like on their leasing, maintenance, etc. They can provide better value to shareholders, absolutely.

[rudder]

That's interesting to see corporations willing to downsize their operations instead of expanding and giving more value to the shareholders.
I'm wondering what's going to happen to Encore and Jazz.

Jazz is not the only bun in the Chorus oven. If they focus their efforts elsewhere, like on their leasing, maintenance, etc. They can provide better value to shareholders, absolutely.

I foresee Jazz being sold to AC.

Time will tell.

[RoAF-Mig21]

I foresee Jazz being sold to AC.

Time will tell.

Rudder, you're a trusted person here on AVCanada (and at work), always full of good info and insight. (Seldom did I not agree with you, but that's small potatoes). Question for you:

At what point would a company like Jazz, no longer be financially feaseble for its "mainline partner"? I've heard a few guys in the US say that regionals there are so exensive now that it's no longer financially sound to have a CPA carrier. Is that true?

[cdnavater]

I foresee Jazz being sold to AC.

Time will tell.

Rudder, you're a trusted person here on AVCanada (and at work), always full of good info and insight. (Seldom did I not agree with you, but that's small potatoes). Question for you:

At what point would a company like Jazz, no longer be financially feaseble for its "mainline partner"? I've heard a few guys in the US say that regionals there are so exensive now that it's no longer financially sound to have a CPA carrier. Is that true?

I realize you asked Rudder however, if they have to pay mainline wages for regional aircraft it becomes too expensive, in addition other expenses would factor in. If they can’t fill a mainline sized aircraft and they want frequency and, and, and.
For fun, you should take the combined wages per aircraft, Capt and FO, divide it by the amount of seats behind them. I did this years ago and it was generally the same per seat across all aircraft types including Jazz’s.
Keep in mind, AC has a long term CPA with Chorus and the only way Jazz is paying the kind of wages that regionals are paying down South, is a renegotiation of that CPA.
More likely outcome is Jazz is carved out from Chorus and wholly owned by AC which would negate the need for a CPA. The other outcome would be a merger of the two and all AC pilots, with wages being part of the AC collective agreement,whatever that looks like.
Solves two of AC’s problems, Pilot supply and additional cost from a CPA markup, three if you count the upcoming challenge being launched by Jazz MEC regarding the lack of flow, which according to the recent information is part of an agreement.

[rudder]

I foresee Jazz being sold to AC.

Time will tell.

Rudder, you're a trusted person here on AVCanada (and at work), always full of good info and insight. (Seldom did I not agree with you, but that's small potatoes). Question for you:

At what point would a company like Jazz, no longer be financially feaseble for its "mainline partner"? I've heard a few guys in the US say that regionals there are so exensive now that it's no longer financially sound to have a CPA carrier. Is that true?

I realize you asked Rudder however, if they have to pay mainline wages for regional aircraft it becomes too expensive, in addition other expenses would factor in. If they can’t fill a mainline sized aircraft and they want frequency and, and, and.
For fun, you should take the combined wages per aircraft, Capt and FO, divide it by the amount of seats behind them. I did this years ago and it was generally the same per seat across all aircraft types including Jazz’s.
Keep in mind, AC has a long term CPA with Chorus and the only way Jazz is paying the kind of wages that regionals are paying down South, is a renegotiation of that CPA.
More likely outcome is Jazz is carved out from Chorus and wholly owned by AC which would negate the need for a CPA. The other outcome would be a merger of the two and all AC pilots, with wages being part of the AC collective agreement,whatever that looks like.
Solves two of AC’s problems, Pilot supply and additional cost from a CPA markup, three if you count the upcoming challenge being launched by Jazz MEC regarding the lack of flow, which according to the recent information is part of an agreement.

Pretty well what he said.

Plus - AC would have obligations regarding successorship rights and transfer of work obligations. Nobody at Express will lose their job. But their employer might change.

AC regional has been a wholly-owned subsidiary before. It can happen again.

[Cavalier44]

Solves two of AC’s problems, Pilot supply and additional cost from a CPA markup, three if you count the upcoming challenge being launched by Jazz MEC regarding the lack of flow, which according to the recent information is part of an agreement.

People keep repeating this as if it were fact, but I have to say I'm not sure how AC buying Jazz fixes their pilot supply problem. The reason Jazz is short-staffed is because the compensation being offered is no longer sufficient to make the job attractive to the experiened pilots that Jazz needs to successfully fill Direct Entry Captain positions, obviously in combination with a shortage of upgradeable First Officers. Air Canada has also been inconsistent with their flow through from Jazz to mainline, failing to meet their 60% hiring obligation, which is creating more uncertainty and doubt for potential applicants, who have plenty of options to choose from at the moment (Cargojet, Flair, Lynx, Porter, Sunwing, etc.).

So how exactly does Air Canada buying Jazz address either of those two issues that I mentioned? Even with a guaranteed flow through after a certain period of time, such as the model being followed by wholly-owned subsidiaries in the United States, would that be enough to make the job attractive to potential candidates, barring any improvements to the salary and working conditions? The last MOA that involved reserved seniority numbers for Jazz pilots failed by a wide margin, so clearly any such agreement in the future would have to reflect significant and meaningful gains for the Air Canada pilot group in order for it to have a chance of passing.

I just don't see how Air Canada buying Jazz fixes any problem that Jazz isn't capable of fixing on their own if they had the wherewithal to do so. In any case, I doubt Air Canada is particularly concerned about the results of the Jazz MEC's legal challenge - I don't see the results of the challenge having any bearing on the direction Air Canada is taking regarding its hiring - at worst, if the case is resolved in Jazz's favour, Air Canada will pay a small, likely insignificant penalty and move on.

[Fanblade]

Solves two of AC’s problems, Pilot supply and additional cost from a CPA markup, three if you count the upcoming challenge being launched by Jazz MEC regarding the lack of flow, which according to the recent information is part of an agreement.

People keep repeating this as if it were fact, but I have to say I'm not sure how AC buying Jazz fixes their pilot supply problem. The reason Jazz is short-staffed is because the compensation being offered is no longer sufficient to make the job attractive to the experiened pilots that Jazz needs to successfully fill Direct Entry Captain positions, obviously in combination with a shortage of upgradeable First Officers. Air Canada has also been inconsistent with their flow through from Jazz to mainline, failing to meet their 60% hiring obligation, which is creating more uncertainty and doubt for potential applicants, who have plenty of options to choose from at the moment (Cargojet, Flair, Lynx, Porter, Sunwing, etc.).

So how exactly does Air Canada buying Jazz address either of those two issues that I mentioned? Even with a guaranteed flow through after a certain period of time, such as the model being followed by wholly-owned subsidiaries in the United States, would that be enough to make the job attractive to potential candidates, barring any improvements to the salary and working conditions? The last MOA that involved reserved seniority numbers for Jazz pilots failed by a wide margin, so clearly any such agreement in the future would have to reflect significant and meaningful gains for the Air Canada pilot group in order for it to have a chance of passing.

I just don't see how Air Canada buying Jazz fixes any problem that Jazz isn't capable of fixing on their own if they had the wherewithal to do so. In any case, I doubt Air Canada is particularly concerned about the results of the Jazz MEC's legal challenge - I don't see the results of the challenge having any bearing on the direction Air Canada is taking regarding its hiring - at worst, if the case is resolved in Jazz's favour, Air Canada will pay a small, likely insignificant penalty and move on.

Regarding staffing and a pilot shortage. It’s not really a pilot overall shortage. It’s a shortage of Captains. Quickly upgradable people.

Just my simple minded opinion on how the company may chose to deal with it.

In this situation it makes little sence to have Captain qualified people flying as FO’s at mainline when you are short Captains at the feeder.

To me the frozen number at AC in the last MOA (rejected) was a step in that direction.


There is no doubt in my opinion that our industry in North America is heading for a shakeup. Regional wages will encourage repatriation to mainline which will result in lower frequency and in some cases lost service.

If I was AC I would be looking at this in this way. If I pay the Jazz pilots enough to attract the applicants they need? Will that make Jazz uneconomical with its current CPA fleet and size? If I decide the most economical way to deal with this situation is to repatriate regional flying to mainline and buy additional 220’s? Now I need to deal with changing the CPA at Jazz. One obvious option is to buy Jazz back and right size it for current conditions.