Flair off runway excursion YKF

[UnionDrive]

Does flair employ TFW’s?

They just started recruiting in Africa for permanent immigrant workers because they can't find enough qualified pilots in Canada that will work for them at the current wages.

How is that even allowed? Pay your f**king pilots proper wages, and things like this won’t happen.

[FL030]

How is that even allowed? Pay your f**king pilots proper wages, and things like this won’t happen.

Because no one cares about pilot experience or fatigue management until one of your airplanes is on the news sitting in a field. Even then I doubt they'll change anything.

[YC87DRVR]

If it was in fact YKF-YVR-YKF throughout the night that is absolutely crazy. Shame on Flair for scheduling that and shame on those pilots for accepting.

Prior to covid Westjet was scheduling 37 crew’s to operate YWG-YEG(couple hour sit)-YYZ red eye. I can’t recall the exact report time or length of the sit in Edmonton. I heard from several union members it was short lived. Almost every pilot was calling in sick and a significant number of crews were even waiting till the last minute and booking off while on the sit in Edmonton in anticipation of being overly fatigued, causing a last minute flight cancelation. It wasn’t long before the company got the message, the union got involved and the company agreed to stop that madness.

[digits_]

If it was in fact YKF-YVR-YKF throughout the night that is absolutely crazy. Shame on Flair for scheduling that and shame on those pilots for accepting.

Prior to covid Westjet was scheduling 37 crew’s to operate YWG-YEG(couple hour sit)-YYZ red eye. I can’t recall the exact report time or length of the sit in Edmonton. I heard from several union members it was short lived. Almost every pilot was calling in sick and a significant number of crews were even waiting till the last minute and booking off while on the sit in Edmonton in anticipation of being overly fatigued, causing a last minute flight cancelation. It wasn’t long before the company got the message, the union got involved and the company agreed to stop that madness.

Why would YVR-YKF at night be madness, but crossing the Atlantic at night is ok?

I agree it's madness, just not sure why only that particular brand of madness should be discouraged

[rookiepilot]

Certainly has happened before and will happen again, no need to hang the crew for it. Fatigue and darkness certainly wouldn’t have helped.

Funny we never hear such grace for fatigue when it's a GA pilot, even a student pilot, who exits the runway. Then it's just how stupid they must have been, and it's great sport to hang that pilot.

I'd think about that bias myself.

Think about how you can take any thread and immediately turn it into shit.

It offends me.

Like the time, long ago, I came back from a long, multi day, time building trip for my CPL on a mega hot day, and parked in the wrong spot or something stupid. Might said something about being tired, taxing in, picked up by their Big Brother devices they recently had installed.

Some fat asswipe loser administrator in the flight school implied — no, said — to my face, zero evidence, i was partying on booze and drugs, on my trip, instead of a nice statement “be careful flying when tired”.

[UnionDrive]

How is that even allowed? Pay your f**king pilots proper wages, and things like this won’t happen.

Because no one cares about pilot experience or fatigue management until one of your airplanes is on the news sitting in a field. Even then I doubt they'll change anything.

All thanks to Justin and Omar.

[YC87DRVR]

If it was in fact YKF-YVR-YKF throughout the night that is absolutely crazy. Shame on Flair for scheduling that and shame on those pilots for accepting.

Prior to covid Westjet was scheduling 37 crew’s to operate YWG-YEG(couple hour sit)-YYZ red eye. I can’t recall the exact report time or length of the sit in Edmonton. I heard from several union members it was short lived. Almost every pilot was calling in sick and a significant number of crews were even waiting till the last minute and booking off while on the sit in Edmonton in anticipation of being overly fatigued, causing a last minute flight cancelation. It wasn’t long before the company got the message, the union got involved and the company agreed to stop that madness.

Why would YVR-YKF at night be madness, but crossing the Atlantic at night is ok?

I agree it's madness, just not sure why only that particular brand of madness should be discouraged

Why don’t you re-read my post?

Did I say YVR-YKF? No. I said if it was YKF-YVR-YKF. Big difference.

[ATC_Anstey]

delete

[twa22]

.

[rooster]

Nice to know that Flair operates their business model like a 703 would. Folks enjoy your $69 tickets at the expense of having a few broken bones.

Company culture comes from the top. A chief pilot that lived in a van in the parking lot, paid for training at Jetsgo, and scabbed at Swoop to try to get ahead of everyone else, is going to be the kind of person that cuts corners and expect others to do the same.

You're a friggin idiot you know that?

[rooster]

Does flair employ TFW’s?

They just started recruiting in Africa for permanent immigrant workers because they can't find enough qualified pilots in Canada that will work for them at the current wages.

How is that even allowed? Pay your f**king pilots proper wages, and things like this won’t happen.

So how did the Emirates accident happen? What about AC in SFO? Southwest in Chicago? And all the other well paid pilots who've had overruns or other incidents? Another stupid comment, surprise surprise.

[rookiepilot]

They just started recruiting in Africa for permanent immigrant workers because they can't find enough qualified pilots in Canada that will work for them at the current wages.

How is that even allowed? Pay your f**king pilots proper wages, and things like this won’t happen.

So how did the Emirates accident happen? What about AC in SFO? Southwest in Chicago? And all the other well paid pilots who've had overruns or other incidents? Another stupid comment, surprise surprise.

-

[canadian_aviator_4]

As a GA pilot you fly once in a while, maybe for a few hours at a time. Unless you have worked as a professional pilot, you have no idea of the stress and exhaustion. These things include:
- abusive chief pilots
- 14 hour duty days, recently reduced.
- low pay, and forced to pick up extra flying to make ends meet, resulting in fatigue.
- many nights away from home.

Overall, I enjoy the job but there are many stressors that come with it. So again, unless you actually have worked as a professional pilot, it’s pretty difficult for you to truly understand.

[altiplano]

Nice to know that Flair operates their business model like a 703 would. Folks enjoy your $69 tickets at the expense of having a few broken bones.

Company culture comes from the top. A chief pilot that lived in a van in the parking lot, paid for training at Jetsgo, and scabbed at Swoop to try to get ahead of everyone else, is going to be the kind of person that cuts corners and expect others to do the same.

You're a friggin idiot you know that?

Is it not true?
#vanlife
#JetsGONE
#scab

[digits_]

If it was in fact YKF-YVR-YKF throughout the night that is absolutely crazy. Shame on Flair for scheduling that and shame on those pilots for accepting.

Prior to covid Westjet was scheduling 37 crew’s to operate YWG-YEG(couple hour sit)-YYZ red eye. I can’t recall the exact report time or length of the sit in Edmonton. I heard from several union members it was short lived. Almost every pilot was calling in sick and a significant number of crews were even waiting till the last minute and booking off while on the sit in Edmonton in anticipation of being overly fatigued, causing a last minute flight cancelation. It wasn’t long before the company got the message, the union got involved and the company agreed to stop that madness.

Why would YVR-YKF at night be madness, but crossing the Atlantic at night is ok?

I agree it's madness, just not sure why only that particular brand of madness should be discouraged

Why don’t you re-read my post?

Did I say YVR-YKF? No. I said if it was YKF-YVR-YKF. Big difference.

Apologies, I assumed a new crew for YVR-YKF, which in retrospect seems unlikely.

[rookiepilot]

As a GA pilot you fly once in a while, maybe for a few hours at a time. Unless you have worked as a professional pilot, you have no idea of the stress and exhaustion. These things include:
- abusive chief pilots
- 14 hour duty days, recently reduced.
- low pay, and forced to pick up extra flying to make ends meet, resulting in fatigue.
- many nights away from home.

Overall, I enjoy the job but there are many stressors that come with it. So again, unless you actually have worked as a professional pilot, it’s pretty difficult for you to truly understand.

Fair.

Just looking for rational consistency in analysis of these events.

[daedalusx]

Company culture comes from the top. A chief pilot that lived in a van in the parking lot, paid for training at Jetsgo, and scabbed at Swoop to try to get ahead of everyone else, is going to be the kind of person that cuts corners and expect others to do the same.

You're a friggin idiot you know that?

Is it not true?
#vanlife
#JetsGONE
#scab

That guy would have definitely made the scab list in the USA ...

[UnionDrive]

They just started recruiting in Africa for permanent immigrant workers because they can't find enough qualified pilots in Canada that will work for them at the current wages.

How is that even allowed? Pay your f**king pilots proper wages, and things like this won’t happen.

So how did the Emirates accident happen? What about AC in SFO? Southwest in Chicago? And all the other well paid pilots who've had overruns or other incidents? Another stupid comment, surprise surprise.

So you don’t think Canadian pilots should be paid properly? Bold of you to state so on a Canadian pilot forum!

[Jester123]

.

[ogopogo]

I thought turns to the west coast and back were pretty normal, at least the ones departing around 8-9am. I flew on many SFO and LAX business trips on AC and it was obvious there was no crew change...this was 6+ years ago now. Have the duty regs changed such that west coast turns with one crew are not allowed?
Or is this because the return leg was a redeye?

[averageatbest]

I thought turns to the west coast and back were pretty normal, at least the ones departing around 8-9am. I flew on many SFO and LAX business trips on AC and it was obvious there was no crew change...this was 6+ years ago now. Have the duty regs changed such that west coast turns with one crew are not allowed?
Or is this because the return leg was a redeye?

If they have a 1-hour report to departure, they are scheduled for an 11 hour day. The maximum duty period for a flight departing at 1800L is 12 hours.

[pelmet]

I thought turns to the west coast and back were pretty normal, at least the ones departing around 8-9am. I flew on many SFO and LAX business trips on AC and it was obvious there was no crew change...this was 6+ years ago now. Have the duty regs changed such that west coast turns with one crew are not allowed?
Or is this because the return leg was a redeye?

It appears that some are trying to put the point across that Flair's payscale and work schedule somehow equate to this incident. No mention of that horrible 4 year flat pay that is mentioned so often for AC newhires and no mention of your experience of the same crew at AC doing what may have happened here(out and back on an overnight to the west coast.

Could the analysis be faulty.

If the chief pilot happens to like living in a van to save money, is it affecting scheduling and decision-making. Does it matter that he worked at JetsGo and put money up for an endorsement(which I was once told was supposed to be returned with interest). I hear AC's schedules are not the greatest for much of the pilot group and I know a guy that was voluntarily flying his ass off at Rouge to max out hours(which may have happened on this flight). I hear that AC guys go two crew over to Europe overnight as well.

The majority of posts seem to have an ulterior motive rather than discussing the accident.

There have been few useful posts on this thread with rants about how GA pilots are treated to temporary foreign workers. The most respectable post has come from an air traffic controller who said.....

"I work at YKF tower and Flair regularly departs in the evening to Vancouver and returns the following morning before we open. Whether they schedule a crew change in YVR I don't know but I doubt it with YKF being their base. I can't say I've seen a Flair to/from YVR anytime recently without this schedule. Fatigue certainly could have been a factor for this reason. It was raining this morning and quite gusty but they routinely stop in 5000 feet so something must have been seriously misjudged to go off the end of 7000 feet if the aircraft was in working order. Luckily that end of the runway is flat and the gear appears to have held. They're in the process of trying to remove it now.

From the tower side of things I'm curious if this could lead down the path to extended tower hours, perhaps all the way to 24 hours. They often have multiple arrivals around or just after midnight while we close at 11 PM, this arrival scheduled around 5 AM, and departures just after 6 while we open at 7. The airport staff used to have the same hours as us, but then extended them because they obviously need staff on site for a scheduled airline and I think they're 24 hours now. There's very little else happening at night so it's not necessary for ATC to be there but it's a nice asset to have to help coordinate response when something like this happens.

This is the 3rd incident of note for Flair 500/501 to/from YVR in the past year with the bomb threat last December(CADOR 2021O2142) and RV takeoff/Flair landing conflict in July while the tower was closed(CADOR 2022O1542). The first obviously wouldn't be fatigue related at all outside of a passenger obviously not thinking clearly, but the 2nd likely involved miscommunication on the MF between 501 and the RV, where fatigue possible could have played a part and the tower being closed absolutely played a part."

[averageatbest]

It appears that some are trying to put the point across that Flair's payscale and work schedule somehow equate to this incident. No mention of that horrible 4 year flat pay that is mentioned so often for AC newhires and no mention of your experience of the same crew at AC doing what may have happened here(out and back on an overnight to the west coast.

Could the analysis be faulty.

If the chief pilot happens to like living in a van to save money, is it affecting scheduling and decision-making. Does it matter that he worked at JetsGo and put money up for an endorsement(which I was once told was supposed to be returned with interest). I hear AC's schedules are not the greatest for much of the pilot group and I know a guy that was voluntarily flying his ass off at Rouge to max out hours(which may have happened on this flight). I hear that AC guys go two crew over to Europe overnight as well.

There have been few useful posts on this thread with rants about how GA pilots are treated to temporary foreign workers. The most respectable post has come from an air traffic controller.

The majority of posts seem to have an ulterior motive rather than discussing the accident.

If Flair's payscale caused this accident, then did Air Canada's flat pay cause their Halifax crash and did WestJet's low pay cause their Halifax crash?

[YC87DRVR]

I thought turns to the west coast and back were pretty normal, at least the ones departing around 8-9am. I flew on many SFO and LAX business trips on AC and it was obvious there was no crew change...this was 6+ years ago now. Have the duty regs changed such that west coast turns with one crew are not allowed?
Or is this because the return leg was a redeye?

It appears that some are trying to put the point across that Flair's payscale and work schedule somehow equate to this incident. No mention of that horrible 4 year flat pay that is mentioned so often for AC newhires and no mention of your experience of the same crew at AC doing what may have happened here(out and back on an overnight to the west coast.

Could the analysis be faulty.

If the chief pilot happens to like living in a van to save money, is it affecting scheduling and decision-making. Does it matter that he worked at JetsGo and put money up for an endorsement(which I was once told was supposed to be returned with interest). I hear AC's schedules are not the greatest for much of the pilot group and I know a guy that was voluntarily flying his ass off at Rouge to max out hours(which may have happened on this flight). I hear that AC guys go two crew over to Europe overnight as well.

There have been few useful posts on this thread with rants about how GA pilots are treated to temporary foreign workers. The most respectable post has come from an air traffic controller.

The majority of posts seem to have an ulterior motive rather than discussing the accident.

The poster who spent the majority of his post bashing a completely different and unrelated company then finishes his post calling out almost all the other posts for having ulterior motives and discussing other things than the accident…..

Hypocrite.

[pelmet]

I thought turns to the west coast and back were pretty normal, at least the ones departing around 8-9am. I flew on many SFO and LAX business trips on AC and it was obvious there was no crew change...this was 6+ years ago now. Have the duty regs changed such that west coast turns with one crew are not allowed?
Or is this because the return leg was a redeye?

It appears that some are trying to put the point across that Flair's payscale and work schedule somehow equate to this incident. No mention of that horrible 4 year flat pay that is mentioned so often for AC newhires and no mention of your experience of the same crew at AC doing what may have happened here(out and back on an overnight to the west coast.

Could the analysis be faulty.

If the chief pilot happens to like living in a van to save money, is it affecting scheduling and decision-making. Does it matter that he worked at JetsGo and put money up for an endorsement(which I was once told was supposed to be returned with interest). I hear AC's schedules are not the greatest for much of the pilot group and I know a guy that was voluntarily flying his ass off at Rouge to max out hours(which may have happened on this flight). I hear that AC guys go two crew over to Europe overnight as well.

There have been few useful posts on this thread with rants about how GA pilots are treated to temporary foreign workers. The most respectable post has come from an air traffic controller.

The majority of posts seem to have an ulterior motive rather than discussing the accident.

The poster who spent the majority of his post bashing a completely different and unrelated company then finishes his post calling out almost all the other posts for having ulterior motives and discussing other things than the accident…..

Hypocrite.

How do professional pilots have such poor interpretation of posts. Somehow I am bashing AC in the majority of my post. I am pointing out that what is said be the situation at Flair is likely not much different than significant parts of AC, which seems to be held by may to be the best choice for a career.

How about you and almost every one else(including me) don't have any idea about what happened and only foolish theories have been put forward. It might help if we actually got a weather report for the time of landing as something useful. That could be the start of some intelligent posting(aside from mine of course;)

Weather report anyone?