Flair off runway excursion YKF

[anofly1]

wind 280 - 300 ish at 15-25, 3 sm , ovc at 600 , light rain, temp 5 degrees C, dewpoint 4, at the time of the landing that I think was 11:30 ish UTC (630 am local)

[Chaxterium]

Weather report anyone?

I believe they landed around 6am yesterday morning.

All times local.

07:00 METAR CYKF 251200Z AUTO 30017G23KT 9SM OVC008 04/03 A2985 RMK SLP118
06:52 METAR CYKF 251152Z AUTO 30016G24KT 6SM BR OVC008 04/03 A2985 RMK PRESRR SLP118
06:48 SPECI CYKF 251148Z AUTO 30016G26KT 3SM BR OVC008 04/03 A2985 RMK SLP117
06:41 METAR CYKF 251141Z AUTO 30017G26KT 2 1/2SM BR OVC008 05/03 A2984 RMK SLP114
06:38 METAR CYKF 251138Z AUTO 30018G25KT 3SM BR OVC008 05/04 A2984 RMK SLP114
06:24 METAR CYKF 251124Z AUTO 30016G25KT 3SM -RA BR OVC006 05/04 A2983 RMK SLP111
06:02 METAR CYKF 251102Z AUTO 29016G23KT 2SM -RA BR OVC006 05/04 A2982 RMK SLP109
06:00 METAR CYKF 251100Z AUTO 28017G23KT 2SM BR OVC006 05/04 A2982 RMK SLP109
05:52 METAR CYKF 251052Z AUTO 28017G24KT 2 1/2SM BR OVC006 05/04 A2982 RMK SLP108
05:00 METAR CYKF 251000Z AUTO 27017G25KT 4SM BR OVC006 06/05 A2981 RMK SLP103

[pelmet]

Thanks guys. According to an earlier post, runway 26 was used, definitely a gusting crosswind but well within limits even with variation added.

What kind of approach is used for runway 26?

[anofly1]

variation as in compass? I thought ground winds are magnetic, upper winds true? maybe i need to review...

The general rule is:

If you read it, it's true. If you hear it, it's magnetic.

All charts and textual sources (METAR, TAF, winds aloft, surface analysis charts, etc) use true north as the reference.

ATIS/AWOS/ASOS broadcasts, or any information a controller gives you over the radio, is magnetic.

Wind direction broadcast over FAA radios is in reference to magnetic north.

Well there you go!! i was sort of maybe half correct.... at best...

[rookiepilot]

Thanks guys. According to an earlier post, runway 26 was used, definitely a gusting crosswind but well within limits even with variation added.

What kind of approach is used for runway 25?

.

[goldeneagle]

Based on the check in time that someone else posted here (around 6pm or so) then they were good for 12 hours so yes, a YVR-YKF-YVR turn is possible. Tight. But possible.

That would be a normal shift for a doctor or nurse in the hospital. They do 12+ hours on the back side of the clock all the time, and it's absolutely not unusual to have a shift extended when the ER is busy.

[737Maximilian]

Based on the check in time that someone else posted here (around 6pm or so) then they were good for 12 hours so yes, a YVR-YKF-YVR turn is possible. Tight. But possible.

That would be a normal shift for a doctor or nurse in the hospital. They do 12+ hours on the back side of the clock all the time, and it's absolutely not unusual to have a shift extended when the ER is busy.

Yeah, and doctors/nurses so rarely make mistakes

[Negative_Unable]

Post deleted

[Jack Klumpus]

Maybe they flaired too high.

[daedalusx]

That would be a normal shift for a doctor or nurse in the hospital. They do 12+ hours on the back side of the clock all the time, and it's absolutely not unusual to have a shift extended when the ER is busy.

Imagine comparing a nurse working a night shift with an approach to mins at 150 kts in gusty winds, into a wet narrow short runway.
My wife is a nurse, I promise you this comparison is utterly retarded.
And yes nurses and doctors make mistakes all the time, it's one of the leading cause of death.
https://www.hopkinsmedicine.org/news/me ... _in_the_us

[rookiepilot]

That would be a normal shift for a doctor or nurse in the hospital. They do 12+ hours on the back side of the clock all the time, and it's absolutely not unusual to have a shift extended when the ER is busy.

Imagine comparing a nurse working a night shift with an approach to mins at 150 kts in gusty winds, into a wet narrow short runway.
My wife is a nurse, I promise you this comparison is utterly retarded.
And yes nurses and doctors make mistakes all the time, it's one of the leading cause of death.
https://www.hopkinsmedicine.org/news/me ... _in_the_us

[pilotidentity]

Glad no one was hurt.

In one article I read a passenger got a text from Flair something like "How was the flight?". They were going to respond it would be nice to get dropped off at the terminal next time They also said they would travel with Flair again in the future.

No big deal

[rooster]

How is that even allowed? Pay your f**king pilots proper wages, and things like this won’t happen.

So how did the Emirates accident happen? What about AC in SFO? Southwest in Chicago? And all the other well paid pilots who've had overruns or other incidents? Another stupid comment, surprise surprise.

So you don’t think Canadian pilots should be paid properly? Bold of you to state so on a Canadian pilot forum!

When did I even say that? Are you actually dumb?

Your statement was ridiculous. You could pay someone a million dollars and they could still have an incident. Again, look at how well SWA pilots are paid and yet they still went off the runway in Chicago. How about Emirates? They still wrote off a 777. This isn't about defending or promoting pay. Good grief.

[ATC_Anstey]

delete

[Jean-Pierre]

Glad no one was hurt.

In one article I read a passenger got a text from Flair something like "How was the flight?". They were going to respond it would be nice to get dropped off at the terminal next time They also said they would travel with Flair again in the future.

No big deal

That is $50 extra fee

[daedalusx]

So how did the Emirates accident happen? What about AC in SFO? Southwest in Chicago? And all the other well paid pilots who've had overruns or other incidents? Another stupid comment, surprise surprise.

So you don’t think Canadian pilots should be paid properly? Bold of you to state so on a Canadian pilot forum!

When did I even say that? Are you actually dumb?

Your statement was ridiculous. You could pay someone a million dollars and they could still have an incident. Again, look at how well SWA pilots are paid and yet they still went off the runway in Chicago. How about Emirates? They still wrote off a 777. This isn't about defending or promoting pay. Good grief.

Well of course an accident can happen to any airlines no matter the experienced level or the pay. No-one is disputing this.
But you have to consider the flight volume and proportional risk. How would you compare Emirate's record with say Lion Air. Obviously one has a terrible safety record and working conditions. How many millions of pax does Emirates fly per year vs Flair ?
What's notable here is that specific pairing route was already brought up here recently as a fatigue risk and this unfortunate incident doesn't come as a surprise. Just like the Colgan Air Buffalo crash was very predictable in it's own way.

Let's just hope that some positive change will come out of this. Regardless of the cause of this overrun (could be mechanical issue, braking/spoilers issue, etc) but it's impossible to deny that fatigue is not a factor here.

[Negative_Unable]

My dude. As a fellow ATC, I’m gonna suggest you delete this. This is WAY too much info to be sharing online with your name attached. We have policies about this. You’re flirting with a dangerous line here.

Everything in that post in publicly available information. The CADORs are, the tower hours are, flair arrival/departure schedules are, weather is(and has been posted already), airport terrain you can see from the side of the road. The only thing that might not be is my speculation about airport worker hours but that's not even info I have access to at work just word of mouth speculation. I was careful when I made the post not to share anything that any random person wouldn't be able to find online themselves.

Are you suggesting I'm not allowed to post information that if I wasn't employed by NAV I would still have access to and would be free to post anyway?

Look. I’m just giving my advice as somebody who has been in this company for a while. When you identify yourself as an employee, give your workplace and name, and then proceed to give thoughts/opinions on what is an open investigation, you risk being perceived as representing the company and its opinions. Give those thoughts/opinions all you want. I’m just saying it’s not the wisest choice to do so whilst identifying yourself so blatantly.

You do you, man. I’m not here to tell you how to live. I’m a peer who doesn’t want this to come back and bite you.
The snippy attitude isn’t necessary.

[pelmet]

Great…..usually it is just the pilots fighting each other after an accident. Now it is the controllers as well

[digits_]

Maybe they flaired too high.

Hehe

[ATC_Anstey]

delete

[daedalusx]

Interesting testimony from one of the passenger: https://www.cp24.com/news/flair-airline ... -1.6168477

Hopefully we won't have to wait 2 years to find out where was the touchdown point and what was the original Flap/AB landing configuration.

[Chaxterium]

I wasn't trying to be snippy, I was asking a legitimate question.

For what it's worth I didn't think you were being snippy at all.

[digits_]

Look. I’m just giving my advice as somebody who has been in this company for a while. When you identify yourself as an employee, give your workplace and name, and then proceed to give thoughts/opinions on what is an open investigation, you risk being perceived as representing the company and its opinions. Give those thoughts/opinions all you want. I’m just saying it’s not the wisest choice to do so whilst identifying yourself so blatantly.

You do you, man. I’m not here to tell you how to live. I’m a peer who doesn’t want this to come back and bite you.
The snippy attitude isn’t necessary.

I've edited the post to nothing(couldn't find a delete button), but it's still there in your quoted post unless you remove it as well.

I wasn't trying to be snippy, I was asking a legitimate question. You said I shouldn't post info, yet all the info is publicly available so I legitimately wanted to know why an employee posting publicly available info would be viewed as off limits since it's something anyone could find and post. I do concede that parts of the post could be viewed as an opinion/speculation of mine and thus the company which is why I deleted it. Thank you for making me aware of that.

I'm wondering the same thing. I appreciated the summary of the publically available info.

[karmutzen]

There are thousands of jobs that practically require longer shifts. No doubt you could suggest "Fatigue" as a factor for every airplane crash. But airline flying, really?? Sit back in a lazy-boy seat (sheepskin covers, mmmm) all day, hand fly a couple minutes every few hours, maybe a sore pinky from punching the flight into the FMS. Dispatch does your planning. Attendant brings you a coffee. Even those fire-chasing helicopter pilots work the same hours, hands on controls all day long-lining, and rolling their own drums for fuel - and I never hear them complain about fatigue.

Pretty slack compared to the rest of the world of long shifts, and yeah I wouldn't compare it to the medical profession.

[digits_]

There are thousands of jobs that practically require longer shifts No doubt you could suggest "Fatigue" as a factor for every airplane crash. But airline flying, really?? Sit back in a lazy-boy seat (sheepskin covers, mmmm) all day, hand fly a couple minutes every few hours, maybe a sore pinky from punching the flight into the FMS. Dispatch does your planning. Attendant brings you a coffee. Even those fire-chasing helicopter pilots work the same hours, hands on controls all day long-lining, and rolling their own drums for fuel - and I never hear them complain about fatigue.

Pretty slack compared to the rest of the world of long shifts, and yeah I wouldn't compare it to the medical profession.

The boredom *is* a major part of the fatigue.